• We’re currently investigating an issue related to the forum theme and styling that is impacting page layout and visual formatting. The problem has been identified, and we are actively working on a resolution. There is no impact to user data or functionality, this is strictly a front-end display issue. We’ll post an update once the fix has been deployed. Thanks for your patience while we get this sorted.

Capitalism works, but does it works too well?

I'm looking at this from a somewhat abstracted cultural perspective, and I'd really like to avoid getting into a debate on actual political issues (rich vs. poor, etc).

So, the idea is that 100 years ago, when there was less stringent regulation of monopolies and uncompetitive business practices, society had more cultural depth. With wealth concentrated in the hands of fewer people, and profits more easily made, we saw these moneymakers pour a lot of their money back into the area in which they lived. Architecture, for example, was much grander. Compare the "McMansions" of today with Victorian's of 100 years ago -- the craftsmanship and attention to detail in those early houses was lightyears beyond the stuff built today. Even your average "suburban" house of 1900 was a much more unique, interesting, appealing structure than the mass-produced houses we use today. Philanthropy, too, seemed to be much more common -- think of all the colleges, universities, hospitals, and libraries which were founded by a "robber barron".

Because money was controlled by fewer members of society, and the smaller amount of competition, more money could be spent on things which did not have a direct relation to profit-making. More money could be spent by the wealthy on "prideful" items, such as local parks or grand architecture.

Today, however, the global nature of the economy combined with companies who are competitive down with every cent, has reduced the amount of "discretionary" money available to these companies and wealthy individuals. If you spend money on anything which doesn't directly improve a companys bottom line, your competitors will capitalize on that misstep, and your company will be no more. I think the easiest way to see the truth in this is to look at modern architecture. There is barely any creativity or purely artistic design -- it's function over form. No elaborate facades, no rich materials, just a utilitarian design which maximizes the use of the space. I mean, look at the skyline of NYC today -- it's all big glass towers. But you can still pick out the old, iconic skyscrapers of decades ago -- the empire state building, the GE building, etc. Those buildings have a cultural value which modern equivalents do not.

Again, if you want to reply, please stick to this narrow topic I'm trying to explore. Replying with "but now we have a more equal distribution of wealth" isn't relevant, because I'm really just trying to look at this from a cultural point of view. I mean, what we remember about Rome isn't how equal or inequal her citizens were, but her legacy of grand architecture, art, and literature.
 
I didn't read the whole thing, but you're making some very large generalizations. To make such subjective analysis of the quality/style of homes is pretty silly given that a century exists between them. There are plenty of tract-house'esque neighborhoods that were built at the turn of the century; the only difference is that we look at them differently because the neighborhoods are developed and they have the subjective "character." Hell, some of the most famous neighborhoods in the larger cities are precisely the same thing you're lambasting now: High-density housing built much less for architectural appeal than for profit and simply providing homes.

In short, it sounds like you just don't like the contemporary styling. Trying to draw some philosophical or economic parallels to it is a big stretch.
 
Many iconic building have been built in the last decade or two. Most of it is happening outside of America though.
 
Too much competition can be bad- it turns the product into a commodity, which means you have to sell in great volumes in order to make any profit. Someone in those cases needs to raise capital to sink into R&D to make a product that stands out from the rest (or make a new product if the current one is at the end of it's life cycle).

The main thing about capitalism is that it drives innovation, where other economic systems tend to cause stagnation.
 
Originally posted by: Descartes
I didn't read the whole thing, but you're making some very large generalizations. To make such subjective analysis of the quality/style of homes is pretty silly given that a century exists between them. There are plenty of tract-house'esque neighborhoods that were built at the turn of the century; the only difference is that we look at them differently because the neighborhoods are developed and they have the subjective "character." Hell, some of the most famous neighborhoods in the larger cities are precisely the same thing you're lambasting now: High-density housing built much less for architectural appeal than for profit and simply providing homes.

In short, it sounds like you just don't like the contemporary styling. Trying to draw some philosophical or economic parallels to it is a big stretch.

Valid criticisms - thanks!

Do you think in 100 years the architecture I'm currently denigrating will be seen as beautiful or innovative in the way Victorian-style architecture is now? Or is it impossible to say, since we're living in the moment we're trying to analyze?

Could you give a couple examples of high-density, utilitarian-designed structures that are now famous for their architectural charm/styling/etc? Would you consider something like the brownstones in Harlem an example of this?
 
Originally posted by: Fritzo
Too much competition can be bad- it turns the product into a commodity, which means you have to sell in great volumes in order to make any profit.

That's really only true if a business is trying to be the lowest price provider in the market. There are plenty of other business plans that aren't centered solely on price, and as a result, don't result in price wars. Apple is an excellent example, as are many other niche market companies.
 
Look through here. The forums are full of the latest in big buildings.

There is a difference between not liking the style and society being worse off in general. Economically we are FAR better off than we were 100 years ago. The poor today lead a vastly better life than the poor a century ago, even if their houses are cookie cutter. I'm sure that the houses of the poor way back when all resembled each other as well. You are just seeing the buildings that have survived, and the one's that do that tend to be the more affluent homes.

Capitalism and taste do not have anything to do with each other though. It has brought us the means (wealth) to make whatever we choose, our tastes have changed though so thus we build different things. Personally I do not care for much in the way of "modern" architecture when it comes to personal residences, but when done right (not overly done just for the sake of being the most "extreme" thing out there) it looks good in today's city skylines.
 
You're comparing the cons of capitalism to the pros of no capitalism which will turn out to make no capitalism more attractive for a lack of a better term. The comparison would have to be made compared to the cons of no capitalism. That is to say if the regulations were not established as they were 100 years ago, we may still be driving gas guzzlers or running our PCs on Pentiums with 256MB or ram. The internet may not even exist as it would not have been conceived for the purpose it is used for today. So while competition may have driven down the quality of goods and services, it also contributed to the research and development of newer and more advanced goods[of crap quality 😛]
 
Originally posted by: PaperclipGod
Originally posted by: Descartes
I didn't read the whole thing, but you're making some very large generalizations. To make such subjective analysis of the quality/style of homes is pretty silly given that a century exists between them. There are plenty of tract-house'esque neighborhoods that were built at the turn of the century; the only difference is that we look at them differently because the neighborhoods are developed and they have the subjective "character." Hell, some of the most famous neighborhoods in the larger cities are precisely the same thing you're lambasting now: High-density housing built much less for architectural appeal than for profit and simply providing homes.

In short, it sounds like you just don't like the contemporary styling. Trying to draw some philosophical or economic parallels to it is a big stretch.

Valid criticisms - thanks!

Do you think in 100 years the architecture I'm currently denigrating will be seen as beautiful or innovative in the way Victorian-style architecture is now? Or is it impossible to say, since we're living in the moment we're trying to analyze?

Could you give a couple examples of high-density, utilitarian-designed structures that are now famous for their architectural charm/styling/etc? Would you consider something like the brownstones in Harlem an example of this?

I'd apply my father's theory of music to any cultural item. "The crap will be forgotten and we'll only remember the good stuff." In 100 years, most of the McMansions will be torn down and only the well built buildings will remain, then people will decry the poor craftsmanship in buildings of their time.
 
Well, what prompted me to write this was looking through old pictures of a city near me - Springfield, MA. Today, the few buildings in the pictures which have survived to this day have had all their architectural detail either removed or covered to save money. Buildings which once had beautifully ornate windows have been torn out and plastered over so the owner can install cheaper "commodity" windows, and not have to pay for custom windows built to fit the architecture. Slate roofs -- which in the long run, are cheaper than shingle roofs -- have been torn off and replaced with shingles. Surviving Victorians have had their architectural detail left to rot (since it's not a structural component), or simply been encased in vinyl siding so they don't have to be painted.

I'm sure a lot of this has to do with the poverty of the city in general... but when houses like these are "rediscovered" in a newly prosperous area, most new owners do what they can to rehab the old house. If it were simply a matter of finances, why would they spend money restoring an old, poorly maintained house when gutting or demolishing it would probably be cheaper? If our tastes have simply changed, then why are people attracted to older architecture at all?
 
Originally posted by: PaperclipGod
Well, what prompted me to write this was looking through old pictures of a city near me - Springfield, MA. Today, the few buildings in the pictures which have survived to this day have had all their architectural detail either removed or covered to save money. Buildings which once had beautifully ornate windows have been torn out and plastered over so the owner can install cheaper "commodity" windows, and not have to pay for custom windows built to fit the architecture. Slate roofs -- which in the long run, are cheaper than shingle roofs -- have been torn off and replaced with shingles. Surviving Victorians have had their architectural detail left to rot (since it's not a structural component), or simply been encased in vinyl siding so they don't have to be painted.

I'm sure a lot of this has to do with the poverty of the city in general... but when houses like these are "rediscovered" in a newly prosperous area, most new owners do what they can to rehab the old house. If it were simply a matter of finances, why would they spend money restoring an old, poorly maintained house when gutting or demolishing it would probably be cheaper? If our tastes have simply changed, then why are people attracted to older architecture at all?



Did you ever consider a lot of the "destruction" of the architectural detail, as you put it, was in response to having a choice of removing the "detail" or do a fully encased lead paint stripping. I know MA is one of the more aggressive states in lead paint removal and containment, and if/when you paint now, if there's lead-based paint, you have to either completely cover/encase it so nothing can escape (think the vinyl siding you speak of) or completely strip, chemically or physically, the piece(s) while they're completely sealed off from the environment.

There're more than a few things that cause building to be taken down, refurbished in ways not faithful to the original, etc.
 
Originally posted by: darkxshade
You're comparing the cons of capitalism to the pros of no capitalism which will turn out to make no capitalism more attractive for a lack of a better term. The comparison would have to be made compared to the cons of no capitalism. That is to say if the regulations were not established as they were 100 years ago, we may still be driving gas guzzlers or running our PCs on Pentiums with 256MB or ram. The internet may not even exist as it would not have been conceived for the purpose it is used for today. So while competition may have driven down the quality of goods and services, it also contributed to the research and development of newer and more advanced goods[of crap quality 😛]

Newer and more advanced goods... to what end? If technological advancement can continue infinitely, then is it really a good thing? It almost seems like we're chasing something which can't be caught -- "the answer to life, the universe, and everything." What's the point of advancing technology if all it really amounts to is busy-work for a civilization? What and where is our goal? If there is no goal, then why not invest our energy into improving social, cultural, and emotional well-being? How does humanity really benefit from having a faster processor next year?

If anything, all technology has done is made it easier to pack more people into the same area... and that doesn't serve much good. I mean, originally agriculture developed so people wouldn't have to starve. "If there's not enough food, we'll figure out how to make more, then everyone can eat!" Yet it never stops there. More food allows more people which then requires more food... ad infinitum.

 
define capitalism.

i never understand what people mean by it because it has so many different possible meanings, that it ends up having no meaning at all.
 
Originally posted by: Beanie46

Did you ever consider a lot of the "destruction" of the architectural detail, as you put it, was in response to having a choice of removing the "detail" or do a fully encased lead paint stripping. I know MA is one of the more aggressive states in lead paint removal and containment, and if/when you paint now, if there's lead-based paint, you have to either completely cover/encase it so nothing can escape (think the vinyl siding you speak of) or completely strip, chemically or physically, the piece(s) while they're completely sealed off from the environment.

There're more than a few things that cause building to be taken down, refurbished in ways not faithful to the original, etc.

That's certainly a possible motivation, but it doesn't explain new construction which is strictly utilitarian in style. e.g., strip malls, "warehouse" stores (i.e. walmart), or even your average square-brick office building. If you're lucky, the owner might spring for some landscaping, but even that is becoming something which towns have to regulate or else it won't happen. A new Walgreen's went up near me a while ago and they were just going to pave over a big piece of unusable property so they wouldn't have to maintain any vegetation. Local ordinance forced them to leave the unusable property as "green space."

In the pictures I've been looking through of Springfield, MA, there's a sense of pride in the community that's clearly evident. For example, one picture was taken the day after a massive blizzard dropped a foot of snow on the city. What's so amazing is that the sidewalks were completely cleared of snow! It's not as if they had snowblowers or dumptrucks to haul away the snow in 1890. Today, even with a denser population and laws requiring property owners to clear their sidewalks, it's rare to find a sidewalk cleared so soon after a storm. Even if it is cleared, it's usually just a narrow path through the snow, and any ice is just left to accumulate. No one has pride in keeping their property well maintained. Is lack of pride a changing taste, too? Or is it becoming ingrained in society that you only do something which directly benefits you in some way? A "capitalist mentality" which has been warped into an "every man for himself" sort of outlook?
 
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
define capitalism.

i never understand what people mean by it because it has so many different possible meanings, that it ends up having no meaning at all.

Well, at a basic level I suppose I'd define it as a system in which there are no rules other than "no force/violence". To be successful, you must provide a product or service that other people willingly choose to compensate you for.
 
Originally posted by: PaperclipGod
Originally posted by: Descartes
I didn't read the whole thing, but you're making some very large generalizations. To make such subjective analysis of the quality/style of homes is pretty silly given that a century exists between them. There are plenty of tract-house'esque neighborhoods that were built at the turn of the century; the only difference is that we look at them differently because the neighborhoods are developed and they have the subjective "character." Hell, some of the most famous neighborhoods in the larger cities are precisely the same thing you're lambasting now: High-density housing built much less for architectural appeal than for profit and simply providing homes.

In short, it sounds like you just don't like the contemporary styling. Trying to draw some philosophical or economic parallels to it is a big stretch.

Valid criticisms - thanks!

Do you think in 100 years the architecture I'm currently denigrating will be seen as beautiful or innovative in the way Victorian-style architecture is now? Or is it impossible to say, since we're living in the moment we're trying to analyze?

Honestly, I feel the way you do about contemporary architecture, but I'm quite certain many felt the same way about the architecture of their time as well. We're all biased; we see it every day, so it's simply not interesting to us.

So, I have no idea how people will view our architecture in a century or even half that time. I do believe it will be looked upon more favorably than we do now.

Could you give a couple examples of high-density, utilitarian-designed structures that are now famous for their architectural charm/styling/etc? Would you consider something like the brownstones in Harlem an example of this?

You're going to catch me on this as I'm going to fall short of a good description. I'd throw many of the burrows of New York in this category as many of them are high-density housing, including Soho and other areas (not too terribly familiar with the area). Perhaps even Georgetown and Pacific Heights in San Fran are examples.

Another example might be for the relatively recent enthusiasm for lofts and similar. These buildings were most certainly not built with architectural significance in mind, yet to us now we find respite from the low-density suburban McMansion style so pervasive today. These types of demands are in every major city I've visited, from San Francisco to Chicago.
 
Originally posted by: PaperclipGod
Originally posted by: Beanie46

Did you ever consider a lot of the "destruction" of the architectural detail, as you put it, was in response to having a choice of removing the "detail" or do a fully encased lead paint stripping. I know MA is one of the more aggressive states in lead paint removal and containment, and if/when you paint now, if there's lead-based paint, you have to either completely cover/encase it so nothing can escape (think the vinyl siding you speak of) or completely strip, chemically or physically, the piece(s) while they're completely sealed off from the environment.

There're more than a few things that cause building to be taken down, refurbished in ways not faithful to the original, etc.

That's certainly a possible motivation, but it doesn't explain new construction which is strictly utilitarian in style. e.g., strip malls, "warehouse" stores (i.e. walmart), or even your average square-brick office building.

How is this any different from the "strip malls" of the early 20th century? These little warehouse-looking buildings which now house cafes, coffee shops, etc. are about as utilitarian as you can get. They use the predominant building material of the time: brick. Nothing innovative, nothing architecturally interesting whatsoever.

The strip malls of today are no different than those from before, except perhaps they're much lower density than those of old. You have strip malls with maybe 10 stores where you'd have blocks and blocks of them in dense urban areas. But still, neither has any significance architecturally, but for some reason we Americans look at the older structures in some faux-romanticism, similar to how many look at quaint little European towns. I point out Bath, England as an example of an almost entirely tract-housing area that has great appeal.

No one has pride in keeping their property well maintained. Is lack of pride a changing taste, too? Or is it becoming ingrained in society that you only do something which directly benefits you in some way? A "capitalist mentality" which has been warped into an "every man for himself" sort of outlook?

I'm not sure where you're looking, but there are plenty of areas where people take great pride in their home and their neighborhood, new or old. I've been in Atlanta for 3 years, and there are beautiful and completely blighted areas all over. Some of the historic neighborhoods are kept pristine, and some of the new look like some nightmare experiment gone horribly wrong.

I don't think you can levy an argument against capitalism on this issue, though I get what you're saying. No one in business builds homes because they want to offer a benefit to someone else. It's a capitalistic endeavor, and the purpose is always to make money. This has never changed.
 
Well, I'd suggest that lofts are popular because they're generally a large, open space which allows a person to individualize it to their taste. It's as if they're doing on the inside of a building what the builders of Victorian's 100 years ago did on the outside with vivid palettes of color and intricate architectural detail. An individual with discretionary income is not influenced as strongly as a business is to spend their money wisely, or in a way which directly benefits their own personal "bottom line."

Much of today's architecture seems to focus on maximizing value per square foot, with weak attempts at imitating old styles thrown on top. For example, the useless plastic shutters that you see on many suburban houses, which are actually just screwed into the wall; or the plastic window grilles stuck in windows to make it look as if the windows are multi-pane (forgetting that 100 years ago you were considered fantastically wealthy if you had windows made of a solid sheet of glass). Even old high-density housing has more individual detail and character than any equivalent modern structure.
 
Originally posted by: PaperclipGod
Well, I'd suggest that lofts are popular because they're generally a large, open space which allows a person to individualize it to their taste. It's as if they're doing on the inside of a building what the builders of Victorian's 100 years ago did on the outside with vivid palettes of color and intricate architectural detail. An individual with discretionary income is not influenced as strongly as a business is to spend their money wisely, or in a way which directly benefits their own personal "bottom line."

Much of today's architecture seems to focus on maximizing value per square foot, with weak attempts at imitating old styles thrown on top. For example, the useless plastic shutters that you see on many suburban houses, which are actually just screwed into the wall; or the plastic window grilles stuck in windows to make it look as if the windows are multi-pane (forgetting that 100 years ago you were considered fantastically wealthy if you had windows made of a solid sheet of glass). Even old high-density housing has more individual detail and character than any equivalent modern structure.

I guess I don't understand the argument. Do you think builders of the early 20th century were going out of their way to maximize material cost to the benefit of architecture or anything else? They used what materials they had, and when new materials were available they were used.

The rules of business haven't changed. Styles change, and businesses move to capitalize on them. Populations increase, housing demand increases and someone has to build the homes.
 
Originally posted by: Descartes

I don't think you can levy an argument against capitalism on this issue, though I get what you're saying. No one in business builds homes because they want to offer a benefit to someone else. It's a capitalistic endeavor, and the purpose is always to make money. This has never changed.

When capitalism was relatively unrestricted, though, much more energy was invested in style. Today, that is no longer a luxury, as stiff competition requires all focus to be on extracting profit. Or is this where you're saying that the amount of time spent on architectural beauty hasn't changed, only our modern taste in style?
 
Originally posted by: Descartes

I guess I don't understand the argument. Do you think builders of the early 20th century were going out of their way to maximize material cost to the benefit of architecture or anything else? They used what materials they had, and when new materials were available they were used.

The rules of business haven't changed. Styles change, and businesses move to capitalize on them. Populations increase, housing demand increases and someone has to build the homes.

Well, architectural detail is not a structurally necessity. So, any that is added to an otherwise "complete" structure is going to add to the cost. Did the elaborate facade on office buildings or the scroll work of a Victorian not cost any extra than equivalent modern architectural embellishments, like plastic shutters and fake window dividers?
 
Originally posted by: daniel1113
Originally posted by: Fritzo
Too much competition can be bad- it turns the product into a commodity, which means you have to sell in great volumes in order to make any profit.

That's really only true if a business is trying to be the lowest price provider in the market. There are plenty of other business plans that aren't centered solely on price, and as a result, don't result in price wars. Apple is an excellent example, as are many other niche market companies.

Apple has a product that is viewed superior in the consumer's eyes. If you are on par with your competitors, the only thing you have to give an advantage is price.

A good example of this is the PC industry. People used to be brand loyal- now they're buying any computer under $500 because there's nothing that sets one apart from the other.
 
Back
Top