Capitalism, Good or bad?

[Moonbeam]

Astaroth33, I forgot to mention there is a profound system of brainwashing that supports the notion of capitalism, part of which you just expressed. You should look into how primitive people really negociate for mates. It demonstrates terrifically high levels of cooperation.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Astaroth33, I forgot to mention there is a profound system of brainwashing that supports the notion of capitalism, part of which you just expressed. You should look into how primitive people really negociate for mates. It demonstrates terrifically high levels of cooperation.

are you sure that you're not an existentialist?

 

[Jzero]

I would argue that those who work hard, take risk, apply themselves and still don't move up need to re-access their hard work, risk and application. It is possible what they consider hard work, risk and application is nothing more than the norm. To succeed you can't just play the game, you have to be better than those on your level.

It just isn't nearly that simple. It's easy to oversimplify the situation, but if it was as easy as you make it sound, everyone would be doing it, and few would be pissing and moaning about how the tax cut only helps the wealthy.

For everyone who makes it up, there are countless others who did not and worked just as hard. I was born in the upper end of the lower class. I would consider myself to be middle-class now. I made it "up." But I'd say luck had as much to do with it as hard work.

 

[Kadarin]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Astaroth33, I forgot to mention there is a profound system of brainwashing that supports the notion of capitalism, part of which you just expressed. You should look into how primitive people really negociate for mates. It demonstrates terrifically high levels of cooperation.

Negotiation is polite competition.

 

[SSP]

Rich getting richer..

 

[GasX]

Originally posted by: SSP
Rich getting richer..

from that article:

Cuban President Fidel Castro took a tougher stand. In his own welcoming speech, he called for a ''Nuremberg trial'' for international financiers and others responsible for today's global economy. Breaking with more moderate members, he also proposed abolishing the International Monetary Fund.

Castro impoverishes his country by maintaining his dysfunctional socialist dictatorship in the face of a U.S. embargo and he calls for "Nuremberg Trials"? LOL

And for the people with bad memories, the embargo started when he allowed the USSR to import Nuclear Weaponry to be aimed at our country...

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: SSP
Rich getting richer..

77 of the world's most corrupt individuals does not a blanket statement make

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Mwilding

Castro impoverishes his country by maintaining his dysfunctional socialist dictatorship in the face of a U.S. embargo and he calls for "Nuremberg Trials"? LOL

in the face of? i might say "due to"

 

[CPA]

Originally posted by: Jzero

I would argue that those who work hard, take risk, apply themselves and still don't move up need to re-access their hard work, risk and application. It is possible what they consider hard work, risk and application is nothing more than the norm. To succeed you can't just play the game, you have to be better than those on your level.

It just isn't nearly that simple. It's easy to oversimplify the situation, but if it was as easy as you make it sound, everyone would be doing it, and few would be pissing and moaning about how the tax cut only helps the wealthy.

For everyone who makes it up, there are countless others who did not and worked just as hard. I was born in the upper end of the lower class. I would consider myself to be middle-class now. I made it "up." But I'd say luck had as much to do with it as hard work.

Read this article. You may be rich and not even know it. Sure luck has something to do with it, but it is much easier to whine, moan and complain about other's success than to create your own. If people used those energies on more positive things, then yes, I think it would be that simple.

 

[Zebo]

Socialism (though everything appears to be moving this way),

Really? Mind telling us what socialism is and what country ever has practiced it?

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: CPA

Originally posted by: Jzero

Originally posted by: Mwilding
is there a problem with social classes other than the lower classes outnumber the upper classes and use that to their advantage in taxing the hell out of the haves?

I'd say that condition is the result of social classes + democratic majority

Social classes have problems. Lack of upward mobility. A lower class that leeches off of the upper class. An upper class that is bitter about the lower class leeching off of them.

Of course the same is true of socialism, it just manifests itself differently. No system will ever be perfect and 100% of the population will ever be happy with their lot in life.

Social classes do not create a lack of upward mobility, choice creates a lack of upward mobility. You choose to work hard or you don't, you choose to take risk or you don't, you choose apply yourself or you don't, etc, etc, etc.

This is not true;

"Studies from many professions have consistently found that taller and more attractive people make more money than shorter and plainer folks. Just one of countless examples is a study of lawyers conducted by Jeff Biddle of Michigan State University and Daniel Hameresh from the University of Texas. They found that the more attractive the lawyer, the more rapid the promotions within the firm. By the end of 15 years' time, the more attractive ones were earning 13 percent more than the less attractive ones. (2) "

"One major factor in determining who becomes successful is inheritance. In 1989, one third of all Americans who earned more than $1 million began with an inherited fortune. (3) But even more widespread is the practice of "living inheritances" -- the advantages passed on from parents to their children while still alive. Examples include wealthy families sending their kids off to college, providing venture capital for their start-up businesses, and otherwise granting them every advantage in a competitive world."


Good read

 

[Ausm]

Originally posted by: Carbonyl
Socialism (though everything appears to be moving this way), Really? Mind telling us what socialism is and what country ever has practiced it?

Canada and Australia come to mind

Ausm

 

[GasX]

Sweden

 

[Scarpozzi]

In Soviet Russia, Capatalism is YOU!

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: Carbonyl
Socialism (though everything appears to be moving this way),

Really? Mind telling us what socialism is and what country ever has practiced it?

My one-liner definition of socialism - Cradle to grave government care and control.

Hmmm, let's see most European governments such as the UK, Sweden, etc are incorporating socialim into their government (medical care, gun control, etc). The European Union is IMHO clearly socialistic at heart. I believe Ireland was recently slapped around by the EU for daring to offer low tax rates.

I know I have seen your, "Nobody has truly practiced socialism" posts several times already. I said "everything appears to be moving this way". As in, bits of socialism are being added into current government and economic systems a little at a time. Example: Prescription drug-benefits for the elderly, Social Security, Income Taxes, Gun Control, Medicare, Medicaid, Hilary's attempt at socializing U.S. medicine (even when she was not an elected official), TennCare, Medi-CAL, and on and on and on.

 

[JellyBaby]

For millions of years humans were a cooperative animal living a cooperative lifestyle.

For millions of years we all sat around scratching our assess and grunting, too. People still cooperate today, Beamer, they just don't show it much on TV.

Captialism is not a form of government folks. It's

An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.

As an economic system it's the best. It keeps most things cheap and encourages hard work and innovation.

Now if anyone can come up with a replacement for it or figure out a way to eliminate the need for money I'm all for it. Personally I think a near unlimited energy source must be found before that can happen but until such time...

If capitalism is wrong I don't want to be right.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: JellyBaby
Now if anyone can come up with a replacement for it or figure out a way to eliminate the need for money I'm all for it. Personally I think a near unlimited energy source must be found before that can happen but until such time...

money is merely a common good that you will trade for and with because you are more likely to encounter an agent with a use for it than whatever good you're peddling.

 

[Zebo]

Nope try again.

 

[Babbles]

I love capitalism. Alas, though, I do not have much capital.

 

[squirrel dog]

Good. Check out the Evil Empire to see why .

 

[flavio]

One of the big problems I see with capitalism is the stores, restaurants, and everything else getting completely dominated by large corporations. The kind of thing where we end up with 3 different Starbucks in one city block.

The kind of thing that starts making every city look the same with the required allotment of TGIF, Olive Garden's, Taco Bell's, Gaps, Malls, and tract housing. Individuality is discouraged and family businesses are squashed by big coorporations with incredible amounts of political influence so that decisions are based on greed instead of what's best for society.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: flavio
One of the big problems I see with capitalism is the stores, restaurants, and everything else getting completely dominated by large corporations. The kind of thing where we end up with 3 different Starbucks in one city block.

The kind of thing that starts making every city look the same with the required allotment of TGIF, Olive Garden's, Taco Bell's, Gaps, Malls, and tract housing. Individuality is discouraged and family businesses are squashed by big coorporations with incredible amounts of political influence so that decisions are based on greed instead of what's best for society.

yeah... i hate suburbs. especially in texas where theres a preponderance of giant neon signs.

<--- tore down his hometown to build a giant ugly mall

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Carbonyl
Nope try again.

The only way to remove basic capitalism from any society is by forcible government intervention. It is contrary to human nature to for one to give the rewards of their efforts to someone whom them do not know personally and whom they believe did not earn it.
Money, despite all its other shortcomings, is one of humankind's most valuable (no pun intended) inventions. Money creates the ability for trade amongst individuals to be as fair and equitable as possible. After all, without money, we would be reduced to bartering, and how many chickens does it really take to equal a pig?
It is the love of money that is the root of all evil, not money itself.

edit:

Originally posted by: Astaroth33
What about the economics of Star Trek? Wouldn't that be the ideal world to live in? Perhaps, if you prefer living in a communist police state..

Nice

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: Carbonyl
Socialism (though everything appears to be moving this way),

Really? Mind telling us what socialism is and what country ever has practiced it?

My one-liner definition of socialism - Cradle to grave government care and control.

Hmmm, let's see most European governments such as the UK, Sweden, etc are incorporating socialim into their government (medical care, gun control, etc). The European Union is IMHO clearly socialistic at heart. I believe Ireland was recently slapped around by the EU for daring to offer low tax rates.

I know I have seen your, "Nobody has truly practiced socialism" posts several times already. I said "everything appears to be moving this way". As in, bits of socialism are being added into current government and economic systems a little at a time. Example: Prescription drug-benefits for the elderly, Social Security, Income Taxes, Gun Control, Medicare, Medicaid, Hilary's attempt at socializing U.S. medicine (even when she was not an elected official), TennCare, Medi-CAL, and on and on and on.

That's a social democracy not socialism. And you may have seen them but you still don't understand the political science terminology and are wrong using the term socialists to discribe liberal demcracies who favor, like republicans private owners controlling the means of production in an economy and select thier managment team. In socialism From the socialist labor party website.

Socialism is the collective ownership by all the people of the factories, mills, mines, railroads, land and all other instruments of production.



Socialism means production to satisfy human needs, not as under capitalism, for sale and profit.



Socialism means direct control and management of the industries and social services by the workers through a democratic government based on their nationwide economic organization.

Under socialism, all authority will originate from the workers, integrally united in Socialist Industrial Unions. In each workplace, the rank and file will elect whatever committees or representatives are needed to facilitate production. Within each shop or office division of a plant, the rank and file will participate directly in formulating and implementing all plans necessary for efficient operations.



Besides electing all necessary shop officers, the workers will also elect representatives to a local and national council of their industry or service--and to a central congress representing all the industries and services. This all-industrial congress will plan and coordinate production in all areas of the economy.



All persons elected to any post in the socialist government, from the lowest to the highest level, will be directly accountable to the rank and file. They will be subject to removal at any time that a majority of those who elected them decide it is necessary.

Such a system would make possible the fullest democracy and freedom. It would be a society based on the most primary freedom--economic freedom.



For individuals, socialism means an end to economic insecurity and exploitation. It means workers cease to be commodities bought and sold on the labor market, and forced to work as appendages to tools owned by someone else. It means a chance to develop all individual capacities and potentials within a free community of free individuals. It means a classless society that guarantees full democratic rights for all workers.



Socialism does not mean government or state ownership.
It does not mean a closed party-run system without democratic rights.
It does not mean "nationalization," or "labor-management boards,"
or state capitalism of any kind.
It means a complete end to all capitalist social relations.


Socialism has never existed. It did not exist in the old U.S.S.R., and it does not exist in China. Socialism will be a society in which the things we need to live, work and control our own lives--the industries, services and natural resources--are collectively owned by all the people, and in which the democratic organization of the people within the industries and services is the government. Socialism means that government of the people, for the people and by the people will become a reality for the first time.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: ElFenix
capitalism's biggest failure is when the personal benefit maximization is to be had by screwing over the company you're in charge of (see: ken lay, carly fiorina, and whoever is in charge at worldcom)

Actually, I think the problem is that people incorrectly percieve that the personal benefit is large in such instances. I contend that Ken Lay and his ilk were looking (wrongly) at simple short-term benefit, and that if they had looked at the long-term personal benefit then it would have fallen in line with the company's long term interest, which falls in line with society's long term interest.

When it comes right down to it, I think that the problems with Capitalism are the same as the problems with any other economic system: The relative inability of mankind to think in terms of long term interests as opposed to interests in the short term.

Capitalism is far from perfect, but I think that relative to the other systems that have been tried or postulated thusfar in human history Capitalism is clearly the best available.

ZV