Capital punishment: why not?

[Elledan]

<< You seem to be operating with the hypothesis that "justice" and "vengeance" are always exclusive of each other. >>


There might be some unlikely case in which the actions taken out of vengeance are similar to the actions which would have been just in that case, but I don't know of any example right now.



<< Try substituting the word "punishment" for "vengeance" and see if your logic still works. >>

Punishment is similar to vengeance.



<< IMO, sometimes justice EQUALS punishment. And punishment should equal the crime. >>

'equal the crime'? Eye for an eye? Respond to death with more death? The spilling of blood with more violence?

Sounds rather foolish to me.



<< You drive too fast, we (society) give you a speeding ticket. >>

Ignorant of the reason why people don't want to obey speed limits.


<< You drown your own kids, we kill you. >>

Ignorant of the reason why the person decided to drown his/her own children.



<< Seems fair to me. Seems like justice. >>

You've yet a lot to learn.

 

[Elledan]

<<

<< Capital punishment: why not? >>


Exactly, why not? Because it's murder? No, it's Capital Punishment. >>

Capital punishment is murder, for aforementioned reasons.


<< Because it is not just? No it is very just when applied in certain cases. >>

Punishment does not equal justice. It equals ignorance and/or anger.


<< I could just as easily argue that a rapist does not deserve imprisonment, they just need therapy. >>


What would imprisonment solve? Nothing. What would therapy solve? Nothing. What would research on the cause why this individual choose for his/her actions solve? Many questions.



<< Regardless, the rules are on the books in some states as voted on by the poeple when they elect their officials. These laws should be applied as appropriate because that is what the people want. If you can't do the time, or lack there of, then don't do the crime. >>


Here's some news for you: laws are seldom just. Often they're just as corrupt, biased or clueless as the people who created them.

In an ideal society, laws would not be necessary. They only compensate for our ignorance on various topics in our society.

 

[KeithWriter]

<< You drown your own kids, we kill you. >>

<Ignorant of the reason why the person decided to drown his/her own children.>


EXCUSE ME?!? There's a good and justifiable reason to drown your own children?!?! But NOT a good reason to kill the person who does it?

Again - bring it close to home. Somebody drowns your baby brother, niece, cousin, whatever. A helpless kid who trusted the adult that ended up killing him or her.

We NEED this adult on our planet? Why? They've broken the basic rule of membership. Throw 'em out of the "people who are alive" club.

Unless, of course, they had a really GOOD reason to drown helpless children. Sheesh.

 

[jjones]

<< In an ideal society, laws would not be necessary. >>


Grow up; we don't live in an ideal society and never will. Your opinions are just that: opinions. You have your views; I have mine.

 

[Elledan]

<< << You drown your own kids, we kill you. >>

<Ignorant of the reason why the person decided to drown his/her own children.>


EXCUSE ME?!? There's a good and justifiable reason to drown your own children?!?! >>

Nope, I never claimed there was.

I merely stated that there's ignorance on the side of those who judge the person regarding what caused the person to take this decision. 'He's just cruel/evil' is NOT a good explanation.


<< But NOT a good reason to kill the person who does it?

Again - bring it close to home. Somebody drowns your baby brother, niece, cousin, whatever. A helpless kid who trusted the adult that ended up killing him or her.

We NEED this adult on our planet? Why? >>

We need to understand the reason, the cause, the motive which urged the person to take such an irrational decision.


<< They've broken the basic rule of membership. Throw 'em out of the "people who are alive" club. >>

Vengeance. Not justice.



<< Unless, of course, they had a really GOOD reason to drown helpless children. Sheesh. >>


Usually they don't, but the reason for their malfunctioning must be researched.

 

[jjones]

<< What would imprisonment solve? Nothing. What would therapy solve? Nothing. What would research on the cause why this individual choose for his/her actions solve? Many questions. >>


Great. Many questions and still no answers. Meanwhile, according to you, anarchy should rule the day.

Laws are in place to answer the questions of what to do about those that trespass the rules of society. They're not perfect but at least they are an answer while we can continue to study behavior. Or does society just put everything on hold until the perfect answers arrive? No, I didn't think so.

 

[Elledan]

<<

<< In an ideal society, laws would not be necessary. >>


Grow up; we don't live in an ideal society and never will. >>

I never claimed we do or ever will. I only gave you something to think about.


<< Your opinions are just that: opinions. You have your views; I have mine. >>

In this case one of us is correct, the other is wrong.

I can discover no flaws in my reasoning.

BTW, it's worthy to be said that many years ago I supported the death penalty. That was before I realized what it truly was about.

Or in the words of a guard who serves at a Death Row: 'It's wrong. I don't know why, but it is wrong.'

 

[KeithWriter]

Why is it inherently true that imprisonment is just and execution is unjust?

Execution is certainly FAR more severe than imprisonment, but I'm talking about applying it where the crimes themselves are far more severe.

Are you actually a person who does not believe in the existence of people who are simply BAD PEOPLE? Not mentally ill, not confused, not stupid ( and those people DO exist, I know), but simply BAD PEOPLE?

Wow. You've got some hard lessons ahead of you if you believe that.

 

[Elledan]

<<

<< What would imprisonment solve? Nothing. What would therapy solve? Nothing. What would research on the cause why this individual choose for his/her actions solve? Many questions. >>


Great. Many questions and still no answers. Meanwhile, according to you, anarchy should rule the day. >>


Quite the opposite, actually.

What I'm proposing it nothing less than the driving force behind science. In fact, it IS science: research, study the unknown until it has no more secrets.

Forgive me for not desiring to hide behind ignorance.



<< Laws are in place to answer the questions of what to do about those that trespass the rules of society. They're not perfect but at least they are an answer while we can continue to study behavior. >>

They're as useful and just as the people who created them. A perverted, sick society will created perverted, sick laws.


<< Or does society just put everything on hold until the perfect answers arrive? No, I didn't think so. >>


Of course not. Stating the obvious isn't going to do you any good here.

I very well realize that laws are necessary at this moment, therefore all I'm trying to make clear is that they can approach or perhaps in some cases even resemble justice.

All it takes is the realization that many things we take for granted are everything but just.

 

[Texmaster]

You are providing closure for the victims and more likely the victim's families knowing this person will never harm anyone else again.

No cost can make up for that peace of mind

 

[Elledan]

<< Why is it inherently true that imprisonment is just and execution is unjust? >>

It is not. Both are unjust.



<< Execution is certainly FAR more severe than imprisonment, but I'm talking about applying it where the crimes themselves are far more severe.

Are you actually a person who does not believe in the existence of people who are simply BAD PEOPLE? Not mentally ill, not confused, not stupid ( and those people DO exist, I know), but simply BAD PEOPLE? >>


I firmly believe that every single individual is formed by its genes and environment, and the latter continues to shape the individual. The choices that person will make depend on the personality of that person, which is a result of the aforementioned factors.

Since we lack sufficient information to answer the question how these factors influence the development of a personality, we need to do more research. The study of so-called 'criminals' will provide us with invaluable information which can be used to prevent and/or cure affected individuals who can not function in a society.



<< Wow. You've got some hard lessons ahead of you if you believe that. >>

Don't worry about me, it will take you a long time before you even learn to interpret and comprehend my posts correctly.

 

[mithrandir2001]

<< Execution is certainly FAR more severe than imprisonment, but I'm talking about applying it where the crimes themselves are far more severe. >>


Morally, yes, but pragmatically, no. Like I said before, McVeigh ceases to exist. It's like he got hit by a car. Where's the justice in that? We terminated his life and call it "justice" and meanwhile society failed on two counts: (1) we killed where we aren't morally justified in killing and (2) McVeigh did not serve because we killed him before the boredom and tediousness of incarceration could affect him.

 

[Elledan]

<< You are providing closure for the victims and more likely the victim's families knowing this person will never harm anyone else again. >>



- This is not true in all cases, according to various studies.

- It remains vendetta, only will it be carried out by the government instead of the family.



<< No cost can make up for that peace of mind >>

Not even justice?

 

[Texmaster]

<< I firmly believe that every single individual is formed by its genes and environment, and the latter continues to shape the individual. The choices that person will make depend on the personality of that person, which is a result of the aforementioned factors.

Since we lack sufficient information to answer the question how these factors influence the development of a personality, we need to do more research. The study of so-called 'criminals' will provide us with invaluable information which can be used to prevent and/or cure affected individuals who can not function in a society. >>



Funny you say that because a genetics expert who helped map the gene recently wrote a book detailing why enviroment plays a far greater role on people and how they react than genetics does.

I'm supporting your thesis btw.

 

[jjones]

<< I very well realize that laws are necessary at this moment, therefore all I'm trying to make clear is that they can approach or perhaps in some cases even resemble justice. >>


Okay, Elledan, I'll bite. Since CP does not serve justice in your view, nor does imprisonment solve the issue, what exactly is the "just" manner in which to deal with murders, rapists, etc.?

 

[mithrandir2001]

<< Since we lack sufficient information to answer the question how these factors influence the development of a personality, we need to do more research. The study of so-called 'criminals' will provide us with invaluable information which can be used to prevent and/or cure affected individuals who can not function in a society. >>


I see danger in that. Any behavior that is considered "criminal" will be stoked and analyzed and we may be intrigued to use genetic technology to breed children who are averse to certain behaviors. I fear a future society that exists only by the blessing of government scientists.

I do not think there is a cure for criminal behavior. As long as we live on a planet of finite resources - and we have insatiable wants - there will be crime and conflict. We can try to control the effects of crime, but its elimination is veritably impossible.

 

[Texmaster]

<< - This is not true in all cases, according to various studies. >>



What studies are you referring to?



<< - It remains vendetta, only will it be carried out by the government instead of the family. >>




I think that is one interpreation. But to be honest, I don't care what its called, vengence or justice, it still provides closure IMO.



<< Not even justice? >>



I don't see the injustice of terminating a life of a person who has ended other lives.

 

[KeithWriter]

Elledan-

Have you ever been the victim of a serious crime? Ever been beaten and robbed? Or assaulted even more brutally? Ever lost a loved one to a crime?

I wonder if your initial response would be "Curious. I must endeavor to learn more about why this happened, to really understand this person who made me feel so bad"?

Reading my own post, I must also ask: "You know what it's like to fall in the mud and get kicked in the head with an iron boot? Of course you don't, no one does. That never happens. Sorry, Ted, that's a dumb question, skip that."
http://www.moviequotequiz.com/othersounds/KickedWithAnIronBoot.wav


But seriously, you also don't believe in imprisonment? Then what do you DO with all the criminals?

 

[Pundit]

I'm with Elledan on this one. The laws governing peoples' behaviour are not that complex. We are basically good. Our minds are incapable of error. When the behavior of some (i.e. criminals) doesn't follow logic, then there is something else impinging itself on their minds. This is what we must erradicate, not the person. Simple as that.

 

[Red Dawn]

Vengence works for me. I don't believe that it is as much of a deterrent as some claim as most criminals who commit Capital Crimes have no intention of getting caught and those who snap and kill a co-worker, family member, nieghbor , etc.. usually aren't thinking of the consequences or don't really care.

Closure and Vengence is the real reason for the Death Penalty which is fine with me.

 

[KeithWriter]

<We are basically good. Our minds are incapable of error. When the behavior of some (i.e. criminals) doesn't follow logic, then there is something else impinging itself on their minds. This is what we must erradicate, not the person. Simple as that. >


Oh yeah, THAT bears up real well throughout history. Glad you clarified.

Now go walk through a neighborhood where people make 1/4 of what you make or less, where you're a different race or nationality than the average resident.

Have fun getting "impinged."

 

[KeithWriter]

Seems like crime is a LOT lower in "cruel" countries where punishment seems (to us) severe or even inhumane.

Maybe that's because criminals are actually AFRAID of being punished. What a concept.

 

[jjones]

<< I'm with Elledan on this one. The laws governing peoples' behaviour are not that complex. We are basically good. Our minds are incapable of error. When the behavior of some (i.e. criminals) doesn't follow logic, then there is something else impinging itself on their minds. This is what we must erradicate, not the person. Simple as that. >>


What planet are you visiting from? Sounds like it could be a nice vacation spot.

 

[Pundit]

<< Seems like crime is a LOT lower in "cruel" countries where punishment seems (to us) severe or even inhumane.

Maybe that's because criminals are actually AFRAID of being punished. What a concept. >>


Check what the productivity levels are in those countries as well. Those are drones, not people. We want a population of clearly-thinking people with self-determination, not trained dogs.



<< Now go walk through a neighborhood where people make 1/4 of what you make or less, where you're a different race or nationality than the average resident. >>


Please specify your point here. If you are suggesting that I philosophize from an ivory tower, you are wrong. You seem to think that some people are beyond redemption, beyond help. That is not the case.

 

[glenn1]

<< I can discover no flaws in my reasoning. >>



Before looking over your position to check it for flaws, you might want to try opening your eyes first.