Capital punishment: why not?

d1abolic

Banned
Sep 21, 2001
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I must say that i strongly disagree with anyone who thinks capital punishment should be outlawed. Yes they are people too, and yes, we sink down to ther level by doing to them what they have done to others. But the way i see it, we're just taking out the trash. What else are we supposed to do with serial killers and such? Take Timothy McVeigh for example. What would you have the government do to him? Spend millions to keep him incarcerated for the rest of his life? Put him through years of intensive therapy and then release him and hope that he doesn't demolish another building? These aren't even valid options. You have to agree, in some cases, capital punishment is the only way to go. Yes it's uncivilized, but what are the alternatives?
 

notfred

Lifer
Feb 12, 2001
38,241
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The money argument is hardly valid. How many people are in prison in the US right now? How many of them are on death row? What's the entire budget for prisons in the US? I think you'll find that keeping people alive rather than killing them hardly impacts the system. I'd rather pay the extra $0.50/year on my taxes if it meant some who was wrongly convicted of murder might have a chance to prove his innocence. I don't think that the world's lost something by killing McVeigh, but I donm't think the world would have been any worse off if he was locked in prison right now. The death penalty really has no advantage over life in prison. Can you think of anyway the world would be a worse place if someone who's in prison was dead instead?
 
Feb 24, 2001
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<< I think you'll find that keeping people alive rather than killing them hardly impacts the system. I'd rather pay the extra $0.50/year on my taxes >>

I think it's substantially more than that. I want to say that it's like $36,000 a year per prisoner. Anyone know if that sounds right?
 

NikPreviousAcct

No Lifer
Aug 15, 2000
52,763
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Who cares if it's right or not? When you oust the poor sucker for killing someone else, nobody's gonna care because they won't have to pay it.

nik
 

NaughtyusMaximus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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If the legal process can be cleaned up, so that it costs less to execute someone than it does to send them to jail for life, I am all in favour of the death penalty. It should only be considered in cases where there is absolutly no shred of doubt as to wether or not the party is guilty however (ie. video evidence/undeyable dna evidence).

Some people cannot be reformed, and since the end goal of inprisonment is that the individual will be able to be released into society at the end of his/her term in prison, if that end goal will never be reached (the individual will kill/rape/etc. again) get them out of the cycle. (Or at least castrate the rapists if death isn't an option)
 

NikPreviousAcct

No Lifer
Aug 15, 2000
52,763
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What? It's not already cheap!? How much does a single bullet and some water from a garden-hose to clean up really cost!??

nik
 

xirtam

Diamond Member
Aug 25, 2001
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The cost for capital punishment is in the legal process, not in the materials used to execute someone.

Regardless, cost-benefit analysis is hardly a moral criterion. Whether or not it is right for the government to be able to execute anyone has little to do with how much it costs. Is there any way we can know beyond a "shred of doubt" that a person is guilty in order to execute them? We can't even decide as a nation what the definition of is is anymore. So if we decide later that a person is innocent, it's a whole lot easier to rip them out of jail and make restitution that way than it is to resurrect them.

On the pro-capital punishment side, one can make the argument that anyone who kills a citizen of a country declares war on that country, meaning the government can then declare war on that individual. Flip the switch.
 

HOWITIS

Platinum Member
Apr 26, 2001
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i'm against the death penalty, but only because of those put to death that aren't actually guilty. the majority of people on death row are too poor to aford a proper defense, and their atorney recieves about 5 dollars a day for the case.


saying this, i was hoping that woman in texas got the death penalty, and i don't see anything wrong with killing, killers.

i just think its better to let a gulity person go, then kill one who is not guilty. at least when they get life they have a chance to prove they are not guilty.
 

NikPreviousAcct

No Lifer
Aug 15, 2000
52,763
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<< i'm against the death penalty, but only because of those put to death that aren't actually guilty. the majority of people on death row are too poor to aford a proper defense, and their atorney recieves about 5 dollars a day for the case. >>

Well, since you have NO IDEA what you're talking about, I'll give ya the ol' eye roll.

rolleye.gif
 

HOWITIS

Platinum Member
Apr 26, 2001
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"Approximately ninety percent of those on death row could not afford to hire a lawyer when they were tried"

-Tabak, in Loyola of Los Angeles Law Review



also over a hundred people have been released from death row since 1977.
 

NikPreviousAcct

No Lifer
Aug 15, 2000
52,763
1
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<< "Approximately ninety percent of those on death row could not afford to hire a lawyer when they were tried"

-Tabak, in Loyola of Los Angeles Law Review



also over a hundred people have been released from death row since 1977.
>>

And, since those lawyers are only getting paid $5 (*snicker*), they don't really care about the fact that a man's life is in their hands and therefore just dick around in court instead of doing their civic duty that they're sworn to in such a prestigious case as potential death-row candidate.

again,
rolleye.gif


nik
 

HOWITIS

Platinum Member
Apr 26, 2001
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If you can afford good legal representation, you won't end up on death row.
Over 90 percent of defendants charged with capital crimes are indigent and cannot afford to hire an experienced criminal defense attorney to represent them. They are forced to use inexperienced, underpaid court-appointed attorneys.
In most states the pay for court appointed attorneys is so low that lawyers assigned to capital cases will lose $20-$30 an hour if they do an adequate job. In Alabama, Louisiana and Mississippi defense attorneys are paid a flat fee of $1,000 -- which translates into about 5 dollars an hour for most lawyers.
In 1996 Clinton cut federal funding to 20 legal resource centers which provided counsel to poor defendants. Now, all of the centers that received this funding have shut down.
Many capital trials last less than a week -- hardly enough time to present a good defense



from here.




note the five dollars a hour part. plz don't basiclly call me stupid if you havn't even researched the matter.


so like a dumbass i messed that part up, 5 bucks an hour isn't much better.



Edit: i did a paper on this a few years back i recalled the 5 dollars part, just put day instead of hour. i guess its more like 30-40 dollars a day.
 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
8,880
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"Capital Punishment: why not?"

Because it's murder.

Murder - certain wilful actions which result in the death of an individual, unless being the result of self-defense.

Besides, capital punishment equals injustice, since it's a form of punishment. Punishment does not equal justice.

These are two reasons why capital punishment is highly immoral and a most despicable practice.
 

tweakmm

Lifer
May 28, 2001
18,436
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I find it extremely hipocritical that our government says, "Do not kill people" but then turns around and kills people people as punishment.
 

StinkyMeat

Platinum Member
Sep 7, 2001
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<< The only real reason I oppose the death penalty is because mistakes happen. That's pretty fuct. >>



Agreed, that pretty much blows.
 

KeithWriter

Member
Jan 28, 2002
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So there's a good reason to keep that woman who drowned all her kids alive? Is she bringing anything good to this planet? Sorry. I think the world will be a better place with her dead.

If somebody killed somebody you actually CARED about, not just some interesting web link that you skim, would you be comfortable with them just going to prison? Or would you want them dead?
 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
8,880
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<< So there's a good reason to keep that woman who drowned all her kids alive? Is she bringing anything good to this planet? Sorry. I think the world will be a better place with her dead.

If somebody killed somebody you actually CARED about, not just some interesting web link that you skim, would you be comfortable with them just going to prison? Or would you want them dead?
>>


Sure, you would want that person dead, but that would not be justice, it would be vengeance.

If we let our feelings interfere with our judgement, chaos will follow.
 

UltraQuiet

Banned
Sep 22, 2001
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jus·tice
1. The quality of being just; fairness
2. a. The principle of moral rightness; equity.
b. Conformity to moral rightness in action or attitude; righteousness.
3. a. The upholding of what is just, especially fair treatment and due reward in accordance with honor, standards, or law.
b. The administration and procedure of law.

The death-penalty is justice. Read the above. I am in favor of it for certain crimes (killing a police officer).
 

desy

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2000
5,446
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106
Ahh who defines morality?
The citizens and the only other countries in the world that kill more people than the US is Russian and China, nice company.
All the other industiralized world countries have done away with CP cause it does not sit well with "justice"
 

jjones

Lifer
Oct 9, 2001
15,424
2
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<< Capital punishment: why not? >>


Exactly, why not? Because it's murder? No, it's Capital Punishment. Because it is not just? No it is very just when applied in certain cases. I could just as easily argue that a rapist does not deserve imprisonment, they just need therapy.

Regardless, the rules are on the books in some states as voted on by the poeple when they elect their officials. These laws should be applied as appropriate because that is what the people want. If you can't do the time, or lack there of, then don't do the crime.
 

KeithWriter

Member
Jan 28, 2002
40
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You seem to be operating with the hypothesis that "justice" and "vengeance" are always exclusive of each other.

Try substituting the word "punishment" for "vengeance" and see if your logic still works.

IMO, sometimes justice EQUALS punishment. And punishment should equal the crime.

You drive too fast, we (society) give you a speeding ticket. You drown your own kids, we kill you.

Seems fair to me. Seems like justice.
 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
8,880
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<< jus·tice
1. The quality of being just; fairness
2. a. The principle of moral rightness; equity.
b. Conformity to moral rightness in action or attitude; righteousness.
3. a. The upholding of what is just, especially fair treatment and due reward in accordance with honor, standards, or law.
b. The administration and procedure of law.

The death-penalty is justice. Read the above. I am in favor of it for certain crimes (killing a police officer).
>>


Clearly my definition of just treatment differs from yours.

The death penalty is a form of punishment, one can only punish out of ignorance or anger.

Don't make me explain my reasoning, because it will take me hours to write it down.
 

mithrandir2001

Diamond Member
May 1, 2001
6,545
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<< But the way i see it, we're just taking out the trash. What else are we supposed to do with serial killers and such? >>


Do we have the liberty to decide who should die and who should live? Do we have that moral right? Capital punishment is a one-way street. We can kill people off, but we can never bring people back to life.


<< Take Timothy McVeigh for example. What would you have the government do to him? Spend millions to keep him incarcerated for the rest of his life? Put him through years of intensive therapy and then release him and hope that he doesn't demolish another building? These aren't even valid options. You have to agree, in some cases, capital punishment is the only way to go. Yes it's uncivilized, but what are the alternatives? >>


I do not believe in an afterlife so I don't see how a criminal pays when he is executed...we all die eventually. Wouldn't it be more fitting to keep them alive and make them pay through sustained long-term incarceration? Imagine if you kept McVeigh in solitary confinement for the rest of his years. That would be the closest equivalent to mythical hell. Now, McVeigh's just dead...as if a car slammed into him and he died. He never really paid for his actions.