Capacitors?? Need some Information from an expert...or someone who knows Caps..

[socalocman03]

Hi, I have 2 Capacitors that are 470 uf (M) 200v 85 Deg +/-20% and are completely wrapped in a rubber material which leads me to believe these are not your common 470 uf Caps or are they? Anyone have a clue as to what the (M) signifies? A letter in Parenthesis looks pretty important right? lol The caps are on the main PCB which houses the High Voltage Section that controls the CRT of a 27 inch tv monitor, as in old school CRT tube style which incidentally doesn't power up when the set is turned on. No Glowing red in the neck of the picture tube at all. With the tops of these two caps bubbled up under the rubber coating I'm suspecting they are at the very least part of the no power problem. Any help in Identifying these caps would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks Les

 

[PottedMeat]

they probably are normal capacitors, 470uF @ 200V makes them pretty large.

look up 'matsushita capacitor' on google images, does it look like the (M) you're talking about? if so that's the manufacturer - Panasonic/Matsushita

to replace them you need to take one out, match the diameter - in mm, lead spacing - in mm, value, and voltage rating.

 

[MrDudeMan]

they probably are normal capacitors, 470uF @ 200V makes them pretty large.

look up 'matsushita capacitor' on google images, does it look like the (M) you're talking about? if so that's the manufacturer - Panasonic/Matsushita

to replace them you need to take one out, match the diameter - in mm, lead spacing - in mm, value, and voltage rating.

You don't have to exactly match the lead spacing or the diameter unless there simply isn't enough room to use a bigger capacitor. If the capacitor is rated for 200V and has a capacitance of 470uF at that voltage, then the lead spacing will be sufficient as long as you don't bend them toward each other.

Without knowing the model number or the other parameters, the best you can do is guess. Realistically, the ripple rating and ESR aren't going to be extremely important in this circuit. Buy one, solder it, and the TV will probably work again.

The rubber material is a conformal coating because the voltage across the capacitor is considered to be high. It prevents stray objects and fingers from shorting the leads.

Start here - select all of the voltages from 200 until the bottom of the list. Then select Radial, Can in the Package/Case category (you don't want snap-in (most likely)). You should end up with 14 results. From that point, pick one that is a close fit in terms of lead spacing and diameter.

 

[mindless1]

Press down on the top to see if it is just the plastic cap they put on top that is domed, which is common to see with no damage to the capacitor itself. If it is actually the capacitor can (metal) domed then definitely replace it.

I'm not sure what MrDudeMan is referring to. Unless socalocman03 feels like scraping lacquer off the bottom of the PCB and drilling new holes into a copper trace in the appropriate place for different lead spacing, then otherwise the replacement should have the same lead spacing. I'd not be surprised if they were snap-in leads.

One area where I would stray from the original specs (if there is room for a bigger capacitor) is use some rated for 105C temperature rather than 85C. Otherwise remove the old caps, measure their dimensions and lead spacing and use the search feature on Digikey that MrDudeMan linked.

However I am not convinced that these are in the high voltage section for the CRT tube which is significantly higher than 200V, they would normally be right after the bridge rectifiers as the AC mains input (then rectified DC) filter caps and need no plastic coating for safety at 200V and below.

Top-down and bottom-up pictures of the caps on the PCB and the underside of the PCB might help, as well as some side shot showing this rubber coating.

 

[bryanl]

Hi, I have 2 Capacitors that are 470 uf (M) 200v 85 Deg +/-20% and are completely wrapped in a rubber material which leads me to believe these are not your common 470 uf Caps or are they? Anyone have a clue as to what the (M) signifies? A letter in Parenthesis looks pretty important right? lol The caps are on the main PCB which houses the High Voltage Section that controls the CRT of a 27 inch tv monitor, as in old school CRT tube style which incidentally doesn't power up when the set is turned on. No Glowing red in the neck of the picture tube at all. With the tops of these two caps bubbled up under the rubber coating I'm suspecting they are at the very least part of the no power problem.

Would it be possible to post a clear photo of those capacitors? Capacitors are often covered in plastic heatshrink tubing to protect them from high heat or high voltage.

The '(M)' refers to that ±20% tolerance. '(K)' means ±10%, '(M)' ±30%, and '(Z)' is +80%, -20%. To add confusion, one company makes 'HM (M)' and 'HN (M)' capacitors, where HM and HN refer to model numbers.

Digikey.com has suitable replacement capacitors and is inexpensive for small orders since they charge little for shipping them. Try to get capacitors with similar ESR and ripple current ratings as well. Many people think the lower the ESR, the better, but many TV circuits will be unstable if the ESR is too low. A temperature rating of 105 degs. C can be used in place of 85C.

The high voltage section of a CRT TV often fails from a shorted horizontal output transistor, typically a large transistor on the largest heatsink in the TV. Digikey is unlikely to carry these, but MCM Electronics is one good source (also has capacitors), and NTE general purpose substitutes seem to work well. OTOH Fox International and Ebay dealers have shipped counterfeits. Replace any damper diode as well, if it's not built into that transistor.

 

[William Gaatjes]

Hi, I have 2 Capacitors that are 470 uf (M) 200v 85 Deg +/-20% and are completely wrapped in a rubber material which leads me to believe these are not your common 470 uf Caps or are they? Anyone have a clue as to what the (M) signifies? A letter in Parenthesis looks pretty important right? lol The caps are on the main PCB which houses the High Voltage Section that controls the CRT of a 27 inch tv monitor, as in old school CRT tube style which incidentally doesn't power up when the set is turned on. No Glowing red in the neck of the picture tube at all. With the tops of these two caps bubbled up under the rubber coating I'm suspecting they are at the very least part of the no power problem. Any help in Identifying these caps would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks Les

When their is no glowing red light in the neck of the tube, the filament of the electron guns is not powered (thermionic emission). And that is usually powered by a very low voltage. Usually around 6V AC waveform. It indeed seems you have a power supply failure. And dried up electrolytic capacitors can cause a SMPS (that provides multiple output voltages) not to start because of all the safety mechanisms (undervoltage check, overvoltage check and over current check). You might also want to check the diodes(short circuits or leaking when high voltage is applied) and bad solder joints (transformers). Most CRT monitor manufacturers were cutting costs by not making a proper mechanical frame preventing the pcb from warping during movement. Since the transformers are quite heavy parts, this usually meant that the solder joints got bad over time because of temperature induced expansions such as solderpins coming loose and moving around in the solder joint.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermionic_emission

 

[MrDudeMan]

I'm not sure what MrDudeMan is referring to. Unless socalocman03 feels like scraping lacquer off the bottom of the PCB and drilling new holes into a copper trace in the appropriate place for different lead spacing, then otherwise the replacement should have the same lead spacing.

If the capacitor isn't snap-in, the leads can simply bend to fit in the holes. I recently fixed two plasma TVs in my house by doing the same thing. The leads on the original capacitors were 0.255" and I replaced them with capacitors that had a 0.289" lead spacing. There's almost certainly no need to drill with radial leads. I mentioned snap-in specifically for this reason.

However I am not convinced that these are in the high voltage section for the CRT tube which is significantly higher than 200V, they would normally be right after the bridge rectifiers as the AC mains input (then rectified DC) filter caps and need no plastic coating for safety at 200V and below.

Conformal standards vary by market, but 200V is usually considered to be high voltage in consumer products. I've seen plenty of 160-200V nodes coated.

 

[William Gaatjes]

Press down on the top to see if it is just the plastic cap they put on top that is domed, which is common to see with no damage to the capacitor itself. If it is actually the capacitor can (metal) domed then definitely replace it.

I'm not sure what MrDudeMan is referring to. Unless socalocman03 feels like scraping lacquer off the bottom of the PCB and drilling new holes into a copper trace in the appropriate place for different lead spacing, then otherwise the replacement should have the same lead spacing. I'd not be surprised if they were snap-in leads.

One area where I would stray from the original specs (if there is room for a bigger capacitor) is use some rated for 105C temperature rather than 85C. Otherwise remove the old caps, measure their dimensions and lead spacing and use the search feature on Digikey that MrDudeMan linked.

However I am not convinced that these are in the high voltage section for the CRT tube which is significantly higher than 200V, they would normally be right after the bridge rectifiers as the AC mains input (then rectified DC) filter caps and need no plastic coating for safety at 200V and below.

Top-down and bottom-up pictures of the caps on the PCB and the underside of the PCB might help, as well as some side shot showing this rubber coating.

There is usually a 100V to 160V line at the secondary side of the main SMPS.
This line is used to power the horizontal deflection circuit and sometimes also to power the separate high voltage smps. Cheaper models have the 25KV flybacktransformer smps integrated into the horizontal deflection circuit. The high quality (and high price) crt monitors have a separate horizontal deflection circuit with separate power rails and a separate smps flybacktransformer circuit to generate the high voltages for the CRT. This separate smps is synchronized with the horizontal deflection circuit in order not to interfere with each other causing weird artifacts in the image on the crt screen. The better monitors also synchronize the main power smps with the horizontal deflection circuit to prevent artifacts in the image on the crt screen. Not coupled directly in phase, but more in a sort of controlled frequency offset if i am not mistaken.

 

[mindless1]

^ Wouldn't that usually have a single, lower uF cap instead of 2 x 470uF?

 

[socalocman03]

I want to thank all of you for the overwhelming response to my little dilemma, I really do appreciate it. I have repaired a couple LCD Monitors by replacing Caps which exhibited the classic sign of failure with the tops being distorted upward. While researching in an attempt to smarten myself up a bit in the realm of electronics repair I found a fairly substantial little piece of information. I don't recall the exact percentage that was given but I DO remember it took me a minute or two to wrap my mind around the statement in the article pointing out the percentage of electronic equipment failures that are directly due to mostly sub par CAPS that were doomed to prematurely fail from the moment of MFG, also Quality CAPS that even though being of good MFG have just due to time or the stress put on them heating and cooling a gazillion times performing for us have simply dried up, over heated and said *uck it I'm done!!! I think the most irritating moment for me but also carrying the huge motivating factor of Keeping Money in My Pocket was going to Digikey (as a few of you fine folks have suggested in this current repair attempt) and seeing the price tag on these things, extremely inexpensive, even if one chose to replace every single CAP on a PCB Laden with the buggers (depending on what you have to do for the next couple days, time is money, so they say) could still prove to be a big savings over the cost of having to purchase a replacement piece of equipment which could potentially cost Hundreds, possibly Thousands of dollars beyond that of a the cost of replacing a few CAPS. To think of the mountain of electronics that find their way to the landfill, uh, er, I mean the Local Electronics Recycling Center...Ya, ya that's it, The Recycling Center!! just irritates a person....Well, it irritates me damn it!! Ha Ha

After Successfully repairing 2 out of the 3 LCD's I've (after discovering this Fact) ventured into fixing and giggling like a little kid to myself after realizing I had just kept upwards of $500 USD in my wallet that otherwise would have been spent on replacing the monitors find myself in a position of not being able to Junk ANYTHING that has Capacitors within its inner workings prior to at the very least visually inspecting for bad CAPS. Do I have a sickness??? lol Neighbors may think I'm a little off when I happen to see an item they've deemed as being junk and I stop and pick it up. One neighbor thinks I'm a little less Crazy since I repaired and returned to him a Kenwood Home Theater Receiver he a few weeks prior had thrown away...To the Electronics Recycling Center, Yup!! Just by replacing a couple bad CAPS...Good Buddy of mine has stated on more than one occasion that "I'm Obsessed with Capacitors", Screw Him!!! Don't need them type of friends in my life!!! lol I can hardly be obsessed when I barely know enough about Capacitors to even begin to be dangerous, so no way could I be Obsessed.....Right? lol I digress...

So, Back to the matter at hand. I appreciate the fact that I now know that a 470 uf 200v cap wrapped in rubber carries the same values as one that is not.

Tomorrow I will take a few pics of the Capacitors in question and surrounding areas of the PCB. In answering one question posed to me in regards to the rubber, When I push on the rubber top in pushes down to the top of the Cap and then is solid so could be these particular 2 caps are fine. There are however some caps that are definitely bad showing the classic visual signs of a bad cap so when I tear into the PCB they will surely be replaced now that I have them Identified, I think, along with the for sure bad caps, their cheap, did I mention that yet? I'll also post pics of some areas of the PCB that to me visually don't look a 100% and could be potential problems, like areas of the board which have obviously sustained some heat damage, whether or not to the point of failure IDK but I'd think should be subject to question at least.

Will Post the pics ASAP. Again, much thanks to the many people that have taken interest in this and have extended their hand offering up their expertise, knowledge, opinions, ideas and experiences to me. Gotta Love the Internet!!

Be back soon......Les

Would it be possible to post a clear photo of those capacitors? As soon as I get the chance....Capacitors are often covered in plastic heat shrink tubing to protect them from high heat or high voltage. So would need to look for like rated caps also wrapped in heat shrink protective layer I assume?

The '(M)' refers to that ±20% tolerance. This is actually where I was leaning as to what the (M) Signifies, was the only thing I could see it meaning. '(K)' means ±10%, '(M)' ±30%, and '(Z)' is +80%, -20%. To add confusion, one company makes 'HM (M)' and 'HN (M)' capacitors, where HM and HN refer to model numbers.

Digikey.com has suitable replacement capacitors and is inexpensive for small orders since they charge little for shipping them. Try to get capacitors with similar ESR and ripple current ratings as well. Many people think the lower the ESR, the better, but many TV circuits will be unstable if the ESR is too low. How does a person identify the remaining pertinent information not included on the can of the cap that is required to located a suitable replacement? A temperature rating of 105 degs. The last two projects I did included strictly 105C Caps and even though I was lead to believe you can always go higher in voltage but never lower I kept them at the same voltages. I find it makes more sense and is just as easy when your having to purchase replacement caps to just keep them of the same values. C can be used in place of 85C.

The high voltage section of a CRT TV often fails from a shorted horizontal output transistor, typically a large transistor on the largest heat sink in the TV. Digikey is unlikely to carry these, but MCM Electronics is one good source (also has capacitors), and NTE general purpose substitutes seem to work well. OTOH Fox International and Ebay dealers have shipped counterfeits. Replace any damper diode These can be identified by? as well, if it's not built into that transistor.

 

[mindless1]

You aren't likely to find caps already in a heat-shrink sleeve if that is what it is. You could buy some sleeving and DIY, (and I am awaiting pictures...) but this probably isn't necessary and sufficient diameter tubing in small quantity may be fairly expensive for what little (if any) benefit there is. Some manufacturers have also used cement to stabilize large capacitors on the PCB, but a TV doesn't move around all that much.

Tolerance doesn't matter too much. What I mean is, these aren't a high tolerance part and not a small uF value in a timing circuit, just about anything you buy will be close enough in tolerance so you can ignore this specification.

Where the cap is in the circuit determines the general type of cap and its other specs, but generally speaking these are highly likely to be general purpose caps with no particularly unusual or *high* specs. At Digikey you can enter in the dimensions you need, see what cap models are available, and look the price and rated lifespan estimations.

105C temperature would be good to pick too, IF there is enough space since they will probably be physically larger. Yes you can go higher in voltage, this is usually done for one of two reasons. 1) You can't find the right size and other specs at the original voltage. 2) Going higher in voltage and leaving all else equal in same family of caps will tend to lower the ESR spec which in some types of circuits is desirable (probably not in your case) without increasing capacitance which causes a more significant increase in inrush current... but again, higher voltage is physically larger, the ideal capacitor is very large and won't fit in an existing budgetized and space constrained design, and would be costly.

Regarding the output transistor, see if there are markings on it you can use to identify it then look at the spec sheet for both parameters to find a suitable replacement IF it is needed, and whether a diode is built in. You can also trace the circuit to see if there's a diode.

However for now, since you already found other caps that are bad that is the main focus, replacing those and checking on whether the fuse is blown. If the fuse is ok then it's time to power it on and see if it works. These other capacitors may have more important specs than the 2 x 470uF already discussed, depending on where they are in the circuit(s). Often the first to fail are on the middle or output portion of the switch mode power supply subcircuit and thus should have fairly low ESR and 105C temperature rating.

If it is not working at this point then we should differentiate between symptoms of complete lack of power, and the TV coming on and behaving normally except having no activity from the tube.

 

[imagoon]

Whole lotta text

It's not a disease. Every SD Tivo in my place has had the same problem. They lived to be quite old before I gave up on them for HD units. All of them had at least 2 caps in the PSU replaced along with one even having a surface mount electrolytic that was removed and a small radial place in it to replace it. I have also done a couple of abit boards and a few other misc power bricks.

 

[socalocman03]

Hi, I have 2 Capacitors that are 470 uf (M) 200v 85 Deg +/-20% and are completely wrapped in a rubber material which leads me to believe these are not your common 470 uf Caps or are they? Anyone have a clue as to what the (M) signifies? A letter in Parenthesis looks pretty important right? lol The caps are on the main PCB which houses the High Voltage Section that controls the CRT of a 27 inch tv monitor, as in old school CRT tube style which incidentally doesn't power up when the set is turned on. No Glowing red in the neck of the picture tube at all. With the tops of these two caps bubbled up under the rubber coating I'm suspecting they are at the very least part of the no power problem. Any help in Identifying these caps would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks Les

These all the pictures of the CAPS in question and a bunch of different areas and components located on the Main PCB and also the PCB that affixes to the Neck of the Picture Tube, I'm sure it has a proper name but this boy hasn't a clue at this point. Still learning myself!! Any specific picks that are needed just ask and I will post them.
Check out the picks, hopefully one of you knowledgeable folks can shed some light on my no power to the picture tube. The game powers on in all aspects as far as HD, Computer Mother Board, Power supply and everything related to that section of the game, just picture tube is black and when looking at the back neck of the picture tube when powered on all indications (no red glowing in the neck of the tube) are it has no power to the tube. Where do I start trouble shooting? I was going to just replace the majority of the caps and hope for the best but now am thinking it very well might be something besides Caps? School me!! lol

thanks again....Les

 

[socalocman03]

http://photobucket.com/GoldenTeePCBdetails

 

[socalocman03]

Thanks again. If you don't see what you need in the pics just ask and I will post them. As for bad caps, Getting a better look at things after completely removing the PCB from its rack below the picture tube the 470uf 200v caps appear that only the rubber is bulging. I can press it down and it pops back so assume its not the actual top of the capacitor that's bulging. The other cap I think could be bad is slightly bulged in 2 of the 4 pie sections created by the vent cross marks so figured it to be bad.

In regards to the sleeving, I didn't know if it was a must for the replacement caps to have it but you for the most part answered that for me stating "for what little (if any) benefit there is." so not thinking it's necessary.

In regard to the output transistor and identifying it by locating the diode attached to the largest heat sink on the board by this method I have it identified. There are quite a few other diodes attached to heat sinks with a couple of those having rather sizable ones as well, you can see them in a few of the pics in various sections of the PCB. The area of the PCB where these diodes are located are all pretty well baked, charred black in a couple areas. I don't know if it's an indication of a failed diode, bad trace leads or if the PCB being all crispy is exactly what one should expect to find even under normal operating conditions within a high voltage environment that these diodes operate in?

At this point should I go shopping for and replace the big caps or better to concentrate on the output transistor? If I remove the Main power output transistor(s) from circuit how can I test them or for that matter any transistor in question? Can I use a Digital Volt Meter to check them? At this time test equipment is limited to my brain, a DVM, a lighted jewelers bench inspection magnifier, Test light probe and an assortment of test leads. If I can what would be the procedures and expected readings of a good transistor in comparison to a bad? Can I test them between the leads like I would a normal diode? The fuse is good, all other aspects of this video arcade game are powering up just no power to the picture tube.

thanks, Les

You aren't likely to find caps already in a heat-shrink sleeve if that is what it is. You could buy some sleeving and DIY, (and I am awaiting pictures...) but this probably isn't necessary and sufficient diameter tubing in small quantity may be fairly expensive for what little (if any) benefit there is. Some manufacturers have also used cement to stabilize large capacitors on the PCB, but a TV doesn't move around all that much.

Tolerance doesn't matter too much. What I mean is, these aren't a high tolerance part and not a small uF value in a timing circuit, just about anything you buy will be close enough in tolerance so you can ignore this specification.

Where the cap is in the circuit determines the general type of cap and its other specs, but generally speaking these are highly likely to be general purpose caps with no particularly unusual or *high* specs. At Digikey you can enter in the dimensions you need, see what cap models are available, and look the price and rated lifespan estimations.

105C temperature would be good to pick too, IF there is enough space since they will probably be physically larger. Yes you can go higher in voltage, this is usually done for one of two reasons. 1) You can't find the right size and other specs at the original voltage. 2) Going higher in voltage and leaving all else equal in same family of caps will tend to lower the ESR spec which in some types of circuits is desirable (probably not in your case) without increasing capacitance which causes a more significant increase in inrush current... but again, higher voltage is physically larger, the ideal capacitor is very large and won't fit in an existing budgetized and space constrained design, and would be costly.

Regarding the output transistor, see if there are markings on it you can use to identify it then look at the spec sheet for both parameters to find a suitable replacement IF it is needed, and whether a diode is built in. You can also trace the circuit to see if there's a diode.

However for now, since you already found other caps that are bad that is the main focus, replacing those and checking on whether the fuse is blown. If the fuse is ok then it's time to power it on and see if it works. These other capacitors may have more important specs than the 2 x 470uF already discussed, depending on where they are in the circuit(s). Often the first to fail are on the middle or output portion of the switch mode power supply subcircuit and thus should have fairly low ESR and 105C temperature rating.

If it is not working at this point then we should differentiate between symptoms of complete lack of power, and the TV coming on and behaving normally except having no activity from the tube.

 

[mindless1]

I can't make heads or tails of the pics, on my end they are only 3cm tall and fuzzy (on photobucket you've linked the Mobile edition, maybe this is why?). What I can see is the 470uF caps have only the normal shrink sleeve that all do, they're Nippon Chem Con SME general purpose caps, the eqiivalent would be one of these two depending on whether they have straight or riveted on, snap-in type leads:

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/ESMG201ELL471MP40S/565-1195-ND/755711
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/ESMQ201VSN471MP30S/565-2731-ND/757944

... but based on what you wrote they don't seem to have failed.

In one pic it looks like a couple of resistors have been cut off the PCB, what's going on with that? I am wondering if someone else removed them, what is the history of this TV set? I'm referring to this pic -
http://mob1218.photobucket.com/albu...den Tee PCB Pictures/IMG_0005_zpse13ed45c.jpg

I can barely make out the text "Should this area be of concern" regarding the browning from heat. While that can be a sign of a fault area, it is also fairly normal to see when there are no problems on an old PCB. Inspect the solder joints of those components to see if there are any cracks and if in doubt, reflow the solder joints.

I don't see any caps in those pictures with metal tops exposed that look like they're domed more than they were from the factory. Some types of caps do have a slight doming but far more than the ones pictured.

It might help if we had large, well lit, wider area pics. However if we see no obvious fault then a difficult situation arises. I don't think you ought to be poking around in a live TV set given the high voltages and the content of this topic, but if nothing obvious is wrong then the next step would normally be to start probing with a multimeter and hopefully having the service manual or at least a schematic to work with.

 

[imagoon]

The picture album says Golden Tee. Is this an arcade monitor? If so the resistors may have been clipped for the arcade unit. However this means that likely the monitor set repair manual is on the web some where. I have also seen a ton of these things retrofitted to LCD.

Does the unit tone up (indicating diagnostics are running?) The golden tee units have a bit of a history on needing cap kits and power transistor kits. The lower power transistors need to be replaced if the color is off.

 

[mindless1]

socalocman03 in retrospect there is nothing wrong with the pics, I had some cookie problem on photobucket kicking me to the mobile side. Those two 470uF caps do look like they're the AC mains filtering right after rectified. I saw nothing else you focused on with a visually identifiable problem.

 

[bryanl]

I don't see any rubber covering those 200V 470uF caps, only the usual plastic heatshrink on the sides and plastic disks on top for electrical insulation. It's common for high voltage caps to be covered on top, and it's also common for those plastic disks to bulge from years of exposure to heat originated inside the cap, even if the cap is still perfectly good. You may want to remove the most bulging plastic disk to see if the metal can is leaking or bulging on top. Electrolytic caps can't be tested with just a multimeter's ohms function (cap starts out as a short and gradually shows higher resistance as it charges) because many test normally that way and even show correct capacitance, but their ESR will be 10 times normal. If you replace those 200V 470uF caps, a rating of 85C is perfectly adequate because those caps work at low frequency, 120 Hz, and there won't be much benefit to installing 105C caps. But 105C can help significantly for caps that work at high frequencies or that switch square waves, such as in the secondary side of the main power supply or the flyback supply (horizontal output section), although 105C alone doesn't indicate suitability for such circuits. Detailed information can be found in the Digikey and Mouser print or PDF catalogs (harder to find it in their regular online catalogs) or the capacitor catalogs put out by manufacturers like Panasonic, Nippon Chemcon/United Chemicon, Rubycon, Nichicon, and Sanyo. Your TV appears to have Chemicons and Sanyos, two very good brands of caps. While high frequency and switching caps should be of low ESR, generally it's bad to choose caps of the lowest ESR for TVs because they can cause unwanted oscillations.

In your Photobucket album, I see a cracked solder joint in photo #8, between the 2 holes at the bottom, and in photo #11, in that circle of solder joints (is that the board that plugs into the back of the CRT?). Photo #9 has at least 2 solder joints that could have been made with dirty wire leads (ring of flux around each), but that may just be shadows, and the same may be true in the middle, near the bottom, of photo #10. Photo #14 shows some power rectifiers and thermistors. The pink thermistor seems to be touching the grey boxy capacitor, and I'd probably bend it away so it doesn't do that. The white plastic boxy object in front of that thermistor may be another thermistor, for the degaussing wrapped around the front of the CRT, and that thermistor can remain so hot for long periods that it almost melts its own solder connections. Or it could be a relay, also for the degaussing coil. It's generally good to resolder the joints of all devices that run hot, including large resistors that stand well above the circuit board for cooling (blue devices in photos 1, 6, 7, 12, 13), large diodes, transistors, and chips, and generally anything in an area of the board that's darkened from heat. Also resolder joints in mechanically stressed locations, such as connectors, heavy devices (transformer, flyback).

Data sheets for horizontal output transistors should indicate whether the damper diode is built in or not. The NTEinc.com substitution manual should also indicate such informaiton. With Japanese transistor numbers, prefix 2s to the part numbers printed on them, that is, a transistor labelled C3039 has a full part number of 2SC3039. When installing components to heatsinks, use proper insulation, usually a silicone rubber, Kapton, or mica insulator and a nylon flange washer for any screws, and silicone heatsink grease. If you have to buy an insulator, get a high voltage version since they're also made in low voltage versions that can quickly cause a short. Use silicone heatsink grease made for electronics repair, not anything marketed specifically for computer CPU heatsinks since the latter often conduct electricity, especially when they're made with silver powder (Arctic Silver). If there are no electronic supplies near you, try auto parts supplies and ask for dielectric grease for ignition modules.

In addition to the main power supply and horizontal output section, you may want to check the vertical oscillator/sweep section since a few caps there are prone to wear, even values as small as 1uF. A single chip likely handles all the vertical functions and possibly even much of the horizontal functions, and the chip's data sheet and application notes may be of help and include an example schematic. Some libraries carry Sams Photofacts (Sams, not Sam's), either in paper form or online, and Elektrotanya has some free factory manuals.

 

[William Gaatjes]

^ Wouldn't that usually have a single, lower uF cap instead of 2 x 470uF?

Two capacitors, probably connected in series.
Indeed that can be the case. If i remember correctly, that can also be a low cost but effective solution to turn 110V ac sinewave into around 200 to 250V dc by configuring the diodes and two capacitors as a voltage pump. When 230V AC sinewave is applied, they are simply put in series (with bleeder resistors also used as a voltage divider to set the point where the capacitors are connected to each other at half the rectified voltage ,325V DC(230V ac).) An artificial capacitor of 235uF 400V is then constructed. The 110V/230V selection switch is used to connect everything in the correct way.

 

[socalocman03]

The picture album says Golden Tee. Is this an arcade monitor? If so the resistors may have been clipped for the arcade unit. However this means that likely the monitor set repair manual is on the web some where. I have also seen a ton of these things retrofitted to LCD.

Does the unit tone up (indicating diagnostics are running?) The golden tee units have a bit of a history on needing cap kits and power transistor kits. The lower power transistors need to be replaced if the color is off.

Yes, I think I had mentioned in one of my last posts that this CRT was part of an arcade game, but maybe not. It is in fact the monitor for the Arcade Game Golden Tee Complete Fore 2005. When the game is powered on or off there is an audible pop heard coming from the speakers that is loud enough to make a guy jump if not ready for it. After the initial pop all indications are that the game is powered up and the computer portion of the game, being the Hard Drive, Mother Board and Power Supply all seem to be working but without the monitor it's impossible to know for sure if they are working correctly. One thing for sure is they have power to them, The Power supply green led is illuminated and I assume indicates it is powered on and is functioning properly, I've actually checked the output voltages from the power supply and all three of the output voltages are correct, +12V is +12.3V, +5V is +5.4V and -5V is -5.0V all of which I would think to be within acceptable voltage range? The Mother Boards Various LED's Illuminate, Flash and Flicker and one LED in particular is the LED that indicates Hard Drive Activity which initially flickers quite rapidly upon first powering the game on, which one would expect to happen, within a few minutes (figure when it has the game loaded and booted up) the flickering LED and audible sounds of the HD accessing its information slows considerably but doesn't stop completely. So as stated above as best I can tell without a monitor to visually confirm that the computer portion of the game is working properly I can only speculate it is. With this being the case wouldn't it then isolate the problem to the CRT, Video and its circuitry?

I also did a self test that was suggested in the users guide of holding the start button down while powering the game on. This is supposed to put the game into a self check mode to run various different system checks, all I get after holding down the start button for about a min is a long high pitched beeeeeeeeeeeep that won't stop until the power is switched off. Nothing appears on the screen to indicate it is in self check mode.

I removed from circuit the output power Transistor (I think) P/N: C3688 Specs: 1500V 10A 150W Transistor Type SI-N. Price $1.12. In hopes that someone could fill me in on testing this transistor, if it is possible to test a transistor with only a DVM or is there special test equipment needed? I'm such a newb! Located on this same huge Square U shaped heat sink are 2 other little guys, ones P/N: TDA165A search on MCM's website comes up as this: TDA1675 - Vert/Proce or/Deflector St IC 15-Pin Zip Tda1675A. Price $1.40.
The other P/N: BDX53A doesn't list on MCM, on Digikey comes up as BDX53ATU Transistor NPN 60V 8A to-220 and states Call for availability and pricing, not sure what to make of that.

Being this game was for the most part sold as a kit and required complete assembly into either a custom game cabinet or one of the prefabbed commercial units available then adding a CRT Screen both being provided by the end user. A good amount of work needs to be completed and can be confusing. There's a wealth of assembly type information out there but actual trouble shooting information however seems to be not as plentiful. The most I have managed to locate is the Users Guide/Assembly Manual provided online by the games manufacturer which has very basic troubleshooting information with the main body of the guide focusing on the actual initial assembly, component locations, connections, configurations and set up programing information. I did however download this manual and went through the troubleshooting procedures with symptoms of no CRT power checking the areas noted should be checked. The fact that this game was just recently pulled from an arcade/billiards game room of a Malibu, CA. Mansion in working condition, it literally was played for an hour or two, worked perfectly right up to the point of it being unplugged, partly disassembled to be moved to my location. I wasn't involved with the moving of the game so the extent to which care was taken is questionable at best. Since the game arrived at my location flat on its back on a trailer having no springs to smooth the ride and no other precautions taken to cushion and protect the HD, CRT, MOBO or any other item sensitive to the harsh environment that a 50 mi open trailer ride would present, it's safe to assume this game was man handled. I initially figured it must be something simple, a loose connection, cable not reconnected correctly, seated properly or connected at all or a fuse etc etc etc......since only hours earlier it worked. All the obvious having been checked it's time to get down to the component level systematically going through and locating the problem. This is where I'm hoping someone or a few someones will be able to offer a little of their knowledge and expertise to assist me in taking a realistic and effective approach in trying to achieve this repair, keeping in mind I am novice at best and have limited resources in test equipment. I'm not delusional, I totally understand the fact that working with what I have available to me isn't the ideal situation but with the hand tools available, given the fact a human mind is a fairly unique and powerful tool in its own right and a few minds coming together for a single cause can be very effective in working around things of the norm finding other methods of achieving the same goals I stand confident that in the end we will have repaired this Arcade Game. If your in my local area feel free to stop by have a cold drink and hit a few balls on the back nine, front nine or a full 18 holes on the course of your choice. The rub is, we need it working in order for that to happening so lets get started. I realize I'm far from being a video game repair tech and further complicating things is the fact were dealing with voltages that under the right conditions can be lethal upon contact and circuits that hold a deadly gift even when power is removed ....All that being said, I'm not new to electronics, I've managed over the years to gain a considerable amount of "Street Smarts" or "lessons learned the hard way" depending on how you look at it. For what it's worth years ago during my 10 years in the Military serving our country I was fortunate enough to attend some formal electronics & electricity courses so I'm not completely in the dark here I just need some refresher moments to get things kick started. I realize if one goes to bed with an itchy behind they stand a good chance of waking in the morning with a stinky finger. I know Mr. Murphy and his laws that of which I've yet to meet the person whom hasn't at some point in their life had that moment of becoming very aware of there existence. I am a firm believer in "If you don't know what it does or has the potential to do, Don't mess with it!!" Although you'll likely appease your curiosity you may also simultaneously through your pain realize you wish you hadn't!!. I also have that of which sadly it seems more and more people these days don't have or simply choose not to use, Common Sense.

I posted a few more picks, I think I identified the power output transistor and pics of that include. I really don't know what are useful pictures so if someone could let me know what would be helping out in showing what needs to be seen as opposed to taking and posting a mess of irrelevant pics no body cares to or needs to see. on photo bucket, this is the link
http://photobucket.com/GoldenTeePCBdetails

thanks,

Les

 

[socalocman03]

I don't see any rubber covering those 200V 470uF caps, only the usual plastic heatshrink on the sides and plastic disks on top for electrical insulation. It's common for high voltage caps to be covered on top, and it's also common for those plastic disks to bulge from years of exposure to heat originated inside the cap, even if the cap is still perfectly good. You may want to remove the most bulging plastic disk to see if the metal can is leaking or bulging on top. Electrolytic caps can't be tested with just a multimeter's ohms function (cap starts out as a short and gradually shows higher resistance as it charges) because many test normally that way and even show correct capacitance, but their ESR will be 10 times normal. If you replace those 200V 470uF caps, a rating of 85C is perfectly adequate because those caps work at low frequency, 120 Hz, and there won't be much benefit to installing 105C caps. But 105C can help significantly for caps that work at high frequencies or that switch square waves, such as in the secondary side of the main power supply or the flyback supply (horizontal output section), although 105C alone doesn't indicate suitability for such circuits. Detailed information can be found in the Digikey and Mouser print or PDF catalogs (harder to find it in their regular online catalogs) or the capacitor catalogs put out by manufacturers like Panasonic, Nippon Chemcon/United Chemicon, Rubycon, Nichicon, and Sanyo. Your TV appears to have Chemicons and Sanyos, two very good brands of caps. While high frequency and switching caps should be of low ESR, generally it's bad to choose caps of the lowest ESR for TVs because they can cause unwanted oscillations.

In your Photobucket album, I see a cracked solder joint in photo #8, between the 2 holes at the bottom, and in photo #11, in that circle of solder joints (is that the board that plugs into the back of the CRT?). Photo #9 has at least 2 solder joints that could have been made with dirty wire leads (ring of flux around each), but that may just be shadows, and the same may be true in the middle, near the bottom, of photo #10. Photo #14 shows some power rectifiers and thermistors. The pink thermistor seems to be touching the grey boxy capacitor, and I'd probably bend it away so it doesn't do that. The white plastic boxy object in front of that thermistor may be another thermistor, for the degaussing wrapped around the front of the CRT, and that thermistor can remain so hot for long periods that it almost melts its own solder connections. Or it could be a relay, also for the degaussing coil. It's generally good to resolder the joints of all devices that run hot, including large resistors that stand well above the circuit board for cooling (blue devices in photos 1, 6, 7, 12, 13), large diodes, transistors, and chips, and generally anything in an area of the board that's darkened from heat. Also resolder joints in mechanically stressed locations, such as connectors, heavy devices (transformer, flyback).

Data sheets for horizontal output transistors should indicate whether the damper diode is built in or not. The NTEinc.com substitution manual should also indicate such informaiton. With Japanese transistor numbers, prefix 2s to the part numbers printed on them, that is, a transistor labelled C3039 has a full part number of 2SC3039. When installing components to heatsinks, use proper insulation, usually a silicone rubber, Kapton, or mica insulator and a nylon flange washer for any screws, and silicone heatsink grease. If you have to buy an insulator, get a high voltage version since they're also made in low voltage versions that can quickly cause a short. Use silicone heatsink grease made for electronics repair, not anything marketed specifically for computer CPU heatsinks since the latter often conduct electricity, especially when they're made with silver powder (Arctic Silver). If there are no electronic supplies near you, try auto parts supplies and ask for dielectric grease for ignition modules.

In addition to the main power supply and horizontal output section, you may want to check the vertical oscillator/sweep section since a few caps there are prone to wear, even values as small as 1uF. A single chip likely handles all the vertical functions and possibly even much of the horizontal functions, and the chip's data sheet and application notes may be of help and include an example schematic. Some libraries carry Sams Photofacts (Sams, not Sam's), either in paper form or online, and Elektrotanya has some free factory manuals.

Thanks for looking at my less than desirable pics so intently enabling you to catch the not so obvious to an untrained eye flaws you've been so kind in pointing out to me that need and will be addressed. I will need to go through your post a few times I'm sure in order to fully appreciate and reap the benefits of your suggestions and to take note of and action of re flowing the list of bad joints and other areas of concern.

I guess best to complete the re soldering, put the PCB back in and see if that cures the problem before starting to replace components.

Will post back with the results after I've had the chance and completed it.

thanks much,

Les

 

[William Gaatjes]

Two capacitors, probably connected in series.
Indeed that can be the case. If i remember correctly, that can also be a low cost but effective solution to turn 110V ac sinewave into around 200 to 250V dc by configuring the diodes and two capacitors as a voltage pump. When 230V AC sinewave is applied, they are simply put in series (with bleeder resistors also used as a voltage divider to set the point where the capacitors are connected to each other at half the rectified voltage ,325V DC(230V ac).) An artificial capacitor of 235uF 400V is then constructed. The 110V/230V selection switch is used to connect everything in the correct way.

I think i found a schematic with explanation. It is a pdf :

http://www.datasheetarchive.com/ind...t+and+230V+DC+output&database=user-highscore#
If you click the picture, the pdf will appear.