This attack was more extreme than any of those things. The Canucks said for weeks that they were going to get back at Moore for his hit on Naslund earlier. Bertuzzi didn't even have the balls to pick a clean fight. He hit Moore from behind and rode him into the ice. Moore's hockey career is most likely over and he has severe neck injuries. How is that not assault?
-
We’re currently investigating an issue related to the forum theme and styling that is impacting page layout and visual formatting. The problem has been identified, and we are actively working on a resolution. There is no impact to user data or functionality, this is strictly a front-end display issue. We’ll post an update once the fix has been deployed. Thanks for your patience while we get this sorted.
Canucks star Todd Bertuzzi charged with assault
Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
This attack was more extreme than any of those things. The Canucks said for weeks that they were going to get back at Moore for his hit on Naslund earlier. Bertuzzi didn't even have the balls to pick a clean fight. He hit Moore from behind and rode him into the ice. Moore's hockey career is most likely over and he has severe neck injuries. How is that not assault?
He intentionally chased the guy, smacked him several blows on the head (and clearly not an accident from game play) then pretty much sat on him.
That is criminal act on ice.
And talking about Bertuzzi, I think it is about time that idiots at the pubs stop cheering for lame-ass fist fights. Fist fights don't belong in hockey.
silverpig
Lifer
Uh yeah he did. He tried to fight Moore all game long, but he wouldn't do it.
If this was back in the good old days of hockey without the instigator rule, every time Moore stepped on the ice he would have been met with a Canuck getting into a clean hockey fight with him. After he had been pounded on for a game, it'd all be water under the bridge. Now with the instigator rule you have to try to goad the guy into fighting. If he doesn't take and you go after him, it's a cheap shot.
silverpig
Lifer
But where is the line? Moore went after Naslund with his elbow out to the side of Naslund's head when he wasn't looking and wasn't near the puck. Naslund ended up with a concussion and bone chips in his elbow. Is that criminal?
Fighting on the street is criminal, but hockey fights and boxing aren't.
I think that is exactly where the problem lies. I cannot accept how fighting can be part of hockey. It is obviously not part of the game, because otherwise the players would not be penalized. The objective (ideally) is to compete fairly and put the puck in the goal. If fighting IS indeed part of the game, then the players should not be penalized to begin with and beat the crap out of each other until the other one dies.
Moore should have been suspended from the game to begin with, in that case. Bertuzzi should have known better than descending to the level of low lives who must vent all their anger physically and take it to the point of almost killing another human being.
Boxing is a sport that is understood to be fist fight between two men who give their all to knock out the other guy. That I can accept.
silverpig
Lifer
Bertuzzi didn't say anything about getting Moore. May made a joking comment about it, but that was all. Everyone KNEW he was going to get roughed up.
Yes, the entire team should be able to go after him. That's how it was done before the instigator rule. The thought of having goons chasing you the entire next game was a huge deterrant for taking liberties with star players. Now any kid can make a name for himself by putting an elbow into a star's jaw when he's not looking and not have to worry about answering to the other team for it.
If fighting were not a part of hockey, you would get thrown out of the game for doing it, as happens in most other sports. Making it a penalty offense puts limits to it, but still allows it in the game. Like intentionally fouling someone in basketball, fighting can be used to slow the momentum of a rallying team or to try and get a formidable player into the penalty box for a few minutes to throw off his rhythm.
If there was no penalty for fighting, you could just get a bunch of burly oafs from South Philly and *bam* the Flyers would just sh!tkick their way to the Stanley cup.
So there is a limit. It's a part of the game - you won't get suspended or ejected for throwing a punch in hockey. But there are also checks in place to keep it from turning into boxing on ice.
silverpig
Lifer
But it IS part of the game. Hooking, fighting, goal tender interference... that's all part of hockey. You get a penalty in soccer if you slide at a guy, miss the ball, and take his shins out, so is that not part of soccer?
Just because there's a penalty against it doesn't mean it's not part of the game.
But here is the difference:
If the ref catches a defender elbowing, he gets a straight red with at least 2 or 3 match ban. If the ref misses, the governing body suspends the player for at least 2 matches depending on the severity. They make it very clear that such behaviour is not tolerated, and the governing body takes necessary measures. There are surely dives and cheap shots, but necessary measures and penalties are taken against those as well.
Any fist fights or behaviours of extreme unsportsmanship that is so often tolerated in hockey would earn then a ban from the tournament at least if not ban for life. I still can't believe that Bertuzzi wasn't banned for life after intentionally fracturing somebody's neck. There is a difference between an accident and intentionally hurting another human being. And Bertuzzi CHASED a player to beat the sh*t out of him. There is no excuse in that.
Legal experts: Bertuzzi case complex
Canadian Press
6/24/2004
VANCOUVER (CP) - Everything was played out on videotape for potentially millions of viewers to see and judge: Todd Bertuzzi sucker-punching an opposing player and crashing down on top of him, leaving the opponent motionless on blood-stained ice.
Bertuzzi was charged with assault causing bodily harm Thursday, but suggestions the case is as clear-cut as those images is an over-simplification for what's sure to be a complex proceeding, say legal observers.
``It's not as simple as saying the person was hit, that's the end of it,'' said Michael Mulligan, a prominent defence lawyer in Victoria who has done Crown work.
It's been almost four months since Bertuzzi piled on top of the Colorado Avalanche's Steve Moore, leaving him with a broken neck, a concussion and other injuries.
There were 18,000 people at the March 8 game and millions more people throughout North America and Europe have seen the clip of the hit.
But the investigation extended well beyond GM Place.
Among the things that took time was the fact that some of the people police needed to talk to were Colorado Avalanche players who were not available in Vancouver.
``To suggest this has taken an inordinate amount of time to come to a conclusion I think overlooks the fact everyone, the public, wants the Crown to make a principled decision based upon the available evidence and not a decision that is made hastily,'' Crown spokesman Geoff Gaul said.
But, as in all cases where charges are laid, Mulligan said Crown prosecutors must decide two things before laying charges: is there a substantial likelihood of conviction and if so, is it in the public interest to do so.
It takes time for police to conduct interviews and to analyse the video tape of the hit. The Crown may have been waiting to see how Moore has recovered.
And also, Bertuzzi's lawyers may have made been allowed to make submissions to the Crown about why it might not be appropriate for charges to be laid.
Laying charges ``is a very significant decision. It's a person who has no criminal record. It's a major matter just to be charged. So it's appropriate that a special prosecutor fulfil their statutory obligation,'' Mulligan said.
Doctors said at the time of Moore's injury that it was not known when, or if, the native of Windsor, Ont., would play hockey again.
Bertuzzi's first court appearance is July 9, though only his lawyer need attend. Although Bertuzzi may enter a plea then, it's more likely his lawyer will ask for more time to go through the evidence that the Crown is required to disclose.
Assault causing bodily harm carries a maximum of 10 years in jail, but Mulligan said that's extremely remote for Bertuzzi. The maximum would be reserved for the worst offender with a long criminal record and no mitigating circumstances to his crime.
In fact, Mulligan said any jail time at all for Bertuzzi is unlikely.
``That's not really a sensible starting point for what's likely to happen.''
Instead, he said Bertuzzi will likely face anything from an absolute discharge, which carries no criminal record, to a conditional discharge, which only carries a record if the terms of the sentence are not met.
Probation, a fine or a conditional jail sentenced served in the community are other possibilities, Mulligan said.
Marty McSorley, the former NHL tough guy charged and convicted of assaulting then-Canuck Donald Brashear with a stick to the head, was given an 18-month conditional discharge.
That incident was also caught on videotape and replayed widely.
McSorley, who was at the end of his NHL career, never played in the league again.
His case will no doubt come to count in Bertuzzi's case.
As in the McSorley trial, any jury in a Bertuzzi trial will hear arguments about what level of violence hockey players consent to, said Mulligan.
``People consent to being body checked. It would also seem there's a consent to engage in fist fights.''
And that videotape doesn't necessarily doom Bertuzzi, he said.
``There's a lot to be considered there. It's not enough to say we've got this thing on videotape, that's the end of it...There would still be other issues.''
Cheers,
Aquaman
Canadian Press
6/24/2004
VANCOUVER (CP) - Everything was played out on videotape for potentially millions of viewers to see and judge: Todd Bertuzzi sucker-punching an opposing player and crashing down on top of him, leaving the opponent motionless on blood-stained ice.
Bertuzzi was charged with assault causing bodily harm Thursday, but suggestions the case is as clear-cut as those images is an over-simplification for what's sure to be a complex proceeding, say legal observers.
``It's not as simple as saying the person was hit, that's the end of it,'' said Michael Mulligan, a prominent defence lawyer in Victoria who has done Crown work.
It's been almost four months since Bertuzzi piled on top of the Colorado Avalanche's Steve Moore, leaving him with a broken neck, a concussion and other injuries.
There were 18,000 people at the March 8 game and millions more people throughout North America and Europe have seen the clip of the hit.
But the investigation extended well beyond GM Place.
Among the things that took time was the fact that some of the people police needed to talk to were Colorado Avalanche players who were not available in Vancouver.
``To suggest this has taken an inordinate amount of time to come to a conclusion I think overlooks the fact everyone, the public, wants the Crown to make a principled decision based upon the available evidence and not a decision that is made hastily,'' Crown spokesman Geoff Gaul said.
But, as in all cases where charges are laid, Mulligan said Crown prosecutors must decide two things before laying charges: is there a substantial likelihood of conviction and if so, is it in the public interest to do so.
It takes time for police to conduct interviews and to analyse the video tape of the hit. The Crown may have been waiting to see how Moore has recovered.
And also, Bertuzzi's lawyers may have made been allowed to make submissions to the Crown about why it might not be appropriate for charges to be laid.
Laying charges ``is a very significant decision. It's a person who has no criminal record. It's a major matter just to be charged. So it's appropriate that a special prosecutor fulfil their statutory obligation,'' Mulligan said.
Doctors said at the time of Moore's injury that it was not known when, or if, the native of Windsor, Ont., would play hockey again.
Bertuzzi's first court appearance is July 9, though only his lawyer need attend. Although Bertuzzi may enter a plea then, it's more likely his lawyer will ask for more time to go through the evidence that the Crown is required to disclose.
Assault causing bodily harm carries a maximum of 10 years in jail, but Mulligan said that's extremely remote for Bertuzzi. The maximum would be reserved for the worst offender with a long criminal record and no mitigating circumstances to his crime.
In fact, Mulligan said any jail time at all for Bertuzzi is unlikely.
``That's not really a sensible starting point for what's likely to happen.''
Instead, he said Bertuzzi will likely face anything from an absolute discharge, which carries no criminal record, to a conditional discharge, which only carries a record if the terms of the sentence are not met.
Probation, a fine or a conditional jail sentenced served in the community are other possibilities, Mulligan said.
Marty McSorley, the former NHL tough guy charged and convicted of assaulting then-Canuck Donald Brashear with a stick to the head, was given an 18-month conditional discharge.
That incident was also caught on videotape and replayed widely.
McSorley, who was at the end of his NHL career, never played in the league again.
His case will no doubt come to count in Bertuzzi's case.
As in the McSorley trial, any jury in a Bertuzzi trial will hear arguments about what level of violence hockey players consent to, said Mulligan.
``People consent to being body checked. It would also seem there's a consent to engage in fist fights.''
And that videotape doesn't necessarily doom Bertuzzi, he said.
``There's a lot to be considered there. It's not enough to say we've got this thing on videotape, that's the end of it...There would still be other issues.''
Cheers,
Aquaman
silverpig
Lifer
I highly doubt he intended to fracture his neck. He wanted to punch him one good and tackle him to the ice. The rest was just how it all happened and wasn't his intent.
Soccer is much different though. There is much less contact, and the rules are different. Elbowing is a 3 game ban in soccer; in hockey it's a 2 minute penalty. Hitting a guy after he makes a pass is at least a free kick and a yellow in soccer. In hockey it's called finishing your check and is allowed.
Then go one further... If Tiger Woods kicks Ernie Els' ball out of bounds and knocks him over doing it what would become of him? Totally different game with totally different rules.
No doubt that hockey tolerates more contact and I completely understand why.
What I never understand is why two or more players letting it all rip and exchanging punches is considered part of the game, and the saddest part are the fans who start cheering and enjoy watching them go at it.
Going back to Bertuzzi, I clearly saw multiple blows. Maybe I'm seeing things, but that didn't look like it was part of the game.
silverpig
Lifer
Fighting is a way for players to police themselves. There's a sort of heirarchy which contains enforcers and stars, amongst others. The stars score the goals, make the game entertaining, and are the best players on the ice. Sometimes regular players take liberties with the stars which, while they may be completely within the rules, are looked down upon. An extra hard hit when the guy isn't looking is an example. You just don't do that to the star players. Hit him, fine, but don't go after a 180 lb guy like he's 220.
If a regular player does take some liberties, he will be met by the enforcers who will let him know that kind of action isn't tolerated. Most of the time it just consists of a player hitting a star into the boards really hard (but cleanly) and then the enforcers hitting him extra hard into the boards a few times. Nothing illegal or against the rules, and that's how it's done.
If the regular player goes too far (elbow resulting in a penalty or injury etc) then the enforcers take some more drastic action. This is where recent league changes have come into play. In the old days, an enforcer would just go out and fight the offending player. Just a clean hockey fight to send a message. Both would cool off for 5 minutes, then it'd be back to normal. Now though, instigating a fight leads to a game misconduct, so a player doesn't have to answer for his cheap shots on star players anymore.
If players didn't police themselves, stars wouldn't be able to play as they do, and there would be a lot more injuiries to the smaller faster players. Fighting provides a balance this way.
alphatarget1
Diamond Member
serves Moore right... j/k
I don't think he's going to be found guilty by the jury (i'm assuming the system is the same in Canada) because most canuck fans I know hate Moore and think that he deserved what he got.
I don't think he's going to be found guilty by the jury (i'm assuming the system is the same in Canada) because most canuck fans I know hate Moore and think that he deserved what he got.
Bingo. With this insitgator rule, all these young players are running around trying to make a name for themselves. I see an incredible lack of respect for other players emerging and it's pretty sad. Hockey is a great self-enforcing game. Let the players play and you will see far fewer injuries and much less of the crap you see today.
Fingolfin269
Lifer
I'm going to try to stop the crazy quote game with this post.
I think the guy deserves to be punished but come on. Hockey players are always mauling each other. This guy just happened to have the bad luck to BREAK SOMEONE'S NECK. Why should the punishment be that much harsher on him and not a dark spot on the league as a whole? I've heard this guy talk and he just doesn't come across as a guy who would attempt to kill someone. Hurt someone, yah, he's a freaking hockey player. Purposely break some guys neck? No way.
I think the guy deserves to be punished but come on. Hockey players are always mauling each other. This guy just happened to have the bad luck to BREAK SOMEONE'S NECK. Why should the punishment be that much harsher on him and not a dark spot on the league as a whole? I've heard this guy talk and he just doesn't come across as a guy who would attempt to kill someone. Hurt someone, yah, he's a freaking hockey player. Purposely break some guys neck? No way.
McKenzie: Civil suit on the horizon?
TSN.ca Staff
6/24/2004
I don't want to minimize what Vancouver Canucks forward Todd Bertuzzi and Colorado Avalanche forward Steve Moore are going through now that criminal charges have been laid against Bertuzzi.
But having said that, there was this sense of thinking "the sky is falling," when looking back at Marty McSorley's charges for his slash to the head of Canucks forward Donald Brashear four years ago. There was a lot of talk about how much violence there was in hockey and how this incident was going to alter the game.
The ruling on McSorley ended up having as much impact on the game as all those other times NHL players have gone to court for on-ice transgressions.
I suspect the same thing will happen with Todd Bertuzzi's situation in the sense that where the bigger picture is concerned, I don't think this situation is as bad as it seems for the National Hockey League.
On top of that, the laying of criminal charges against Bertuzzi also bolsters the chance of a civil case for Moore. There's no question in a lot of people's minds that preparation is under way for a civil suit against Bertuzzi, the Canucks and the National Hockey League. That is what the NHL should be absolutely terrified about, as such a suit might have the most impact and force them to do business in a different way.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
With all the rumours and news about the possibility of Washington trading its first overall selection on Satruday, it's safe to say that GM George McPhee is going to keep it.
A lot of NHL general managers who have been talking to McPhee over the last few days are coming away with the general sense that he's not prepared to deal it (unless there's some astronomical offer, which isn't coming down the pike), and the Capitals will select Alexander Ovechkin.
On the other hand, the Pittsburgh Penguins have the second overall selection in Saturday's draft and people are wondering if GM Craig Patrick is willing to trade it - for financial reasons.
Russian forward Evgeny Malkin is the obvious choice to go second overall, and bear in mind that there is no agreement in place between the NHL and the International Ice Hockey Federation. The speculation is that it could cost millions of dollars in transfer fees to get both Ovechkin and Malkin out of Russia and into the NHL.
That being said, a lot of people suspect that the Penguins won't be able to afford that and could be prepared to trade the pick. Teams like the Columbus Blue Jackets and Atlanta Thrashers are pitching trade proposals -once directed at McPhee - to Patrick and the Penguins.
Cheers,
Aquaman
TSN.ca Staff
6/24/2004
I don't want to minimize what Vancouver Canucks forward Todd Bertuzzi and Colorado Avalanche forward Steve Moore are going through now that criminal charges have been laid against Bertuzzi.
But having said that, there was this sense of thinking "the sky is falling," when looking back at Marty McSorley's charges for his slash to the head of Canucks forward Donald Brashear four years ago. There was a lot of talk about how much violence there was in hockey and how this incident was going to alter the game.
The ruling on McSorley ended up having as much impact on the game as all those other times NHL players have gone to court for on-ice transgressions.
I suspect the same thing will happen with Todd Bertuzzi's situation in the sense that where the bigger picture is concerned, I don't think this situation is as bad as it seems for the National Hockey League.
On top of that, the laying of criminal charges against Bertuzzi also bolsters the chance of a civil case for Moore. There's no question in a lot of people's minds that preparation is under way for a civil suit against Bertuzzi, the Canucks and the National Hockey League. That is what the NHL should be absolutely terrified about, as such a suit might have the most impact and force them to do business in a different way.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
With all the rumours and news about the possibility of Washington trading its first overall selection on Satruday, it's safe to say that GM George McPhee is going to keep it.
A lot of NHL general managers who have been talking to McPhee over the last few days are coming away with the general sense that he's not prepared to deal it (unless there's some astronomical offer, which isn't coming down the pike), and the Capitals will select Alexander Ovechkin.
On the other hand, the Pittsburgh Penguins have the second overall selection in Saturday's draft and people are wondering if GM Craig Patrick is willing to trade it - for financial reasons.
Russian forward Evgeny Malkin is the obvious choice to go second overall, and bear in mind that there is no agreement in place between the NHL and the International Ice Hockey Federation. The speculation is that it could cost millions of dollars in transfer fees to get both Ovechkin and Malkin out of Russia and into the NHL.
That being said, a lot of people suspect that the Penguins won't be able to afford that and could be prepared to trade the pick. Teams like the Columbus Blue Jackets and Atlanta Thrashers are pitching trade proposals -once directed at McPhee - to Patrick and the Penguins.
Cheers,
Aquaman
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 25K
-
-
-
