Canadian miners safe, American miners dead

[KB]

CNN story about canadian miners:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/01/30/canada.mine.reut/index.html

I don't want to turn this into a Bush and/or American business doesn't care about American workers tirade, but I can't help but wonder how the West Virginia miners may have survived if they lived in canada.
The WV miners had just 1 hour of oxygen on standby on their person. The Canadian miners had safe rooms with 36 hours of food, water and oxygen. Where would you rather work as a miner?

 

[Todd33]

Those extra precautions cost money and hurt the bottom line, they can get more miners - the school system pumps out potential ones all the time.

See how easy it is to think like a "conservative"?

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: Todd33
Those extra precautions cost money and hurt the bottom line, they can get more miners - the school system pumps out potential ones all the time.

See how easy it is to think like a "conservative"?

So much for the OP's request not to make it political 😕

 

[broon]

How is this a new problem or one that is defined by "Conservative/Liberal"? Seems like it's more of a big business problem. The company cut costs. OSHA (which is has been around longer than Bush) had too low standards or didn't pay enough attention.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: Todd33
Those extra precautions cost money and hurt the bottom line, they can get more miners - the school system pumps out potential ones all the time.

See how easy it is to think like a "conservative"?

So much for the OP's request not to make it political 😕

He didn't request anyhing. He stated he didn't want to post a tirade.

 

[sandorski]

Self-Regulation does not work. That's what is to be learned here.

 

[Uhtrinity]

Originally posted by: sandorski
Self-Regulation does not work. That's what is to be learned here.

Give self regulation and corners get cut in the name of the almighty dollar. That's a free market for you.

 

[biostud]

Originally posted by: Uhtrinity

Originally posted by: sandorski
Self-Regulation does not work. That's what is to be learned here.

Give self regulation and corners get cut in the name of the almighty dollar. That's a free market for you.

except if all mines all over the world had the same minimum rules for safety etc., then they would need to compete on something else than human lifes.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: biostud

Originally posted by: Uhtrinity

Originally posted by: sandorski
Self-Regulation does not work. That's what is to be learned here.

Give self regulation and corners get cut in the name of the almighty dollar. That's a free market for you.

except if all mines all over the world had the same minimum rules for safety etc., then they would need to compete on something else than human lifes.

How does that make sense?

 

[Kenazo]

Is potash mined the same was as coal though? I'm not a mine expert, but perhaps it is a slightly different situation.

Canada's great. 😀

 

[CanOWorms]

The article doesn't state whether the mine company instituted the safety measures itself or whether it was required by the province or government or any other entity, so how can some of you reach these conclusions?

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: KB

CNN story about canadian miners:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/01/30/canada.mine.reut/index.html

I don't want to turn this into a Bush and/or American business doesn't care about American workers tirade, but I can't help but wonder how the West Virginia miners may have survived if they lived in canada.
The WV miners had just 1 hour of oxygen on standby on their person. The Canadian miners had safe rooms with 36 hours of food, water and oxygen. Where would you rather work as a miner?

Seems a bit premature to draw valid comparisons/conclusions.

IIRC the miners in WV also had access to "safe rooms", although can't tell if they are of the same type.

Unlike coal dust, which can explode, potash is not flammable. Hence, rescuers may have difficulty in getting to trapped miners etc.

IIRC, the WV miners were down there for 40+ hrs. If that happened in Canada, they may have been killed as well.

Fern

 

[Polish3d]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
The article doesn't state whether the mine company instituted the safety measures itself or whether it was required by the province or government or any other entity, so how can some of you reach these conclusions?

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

While the Canadian potash mine accident isn't exactly like the Sago coal mine, it is illustrative.

Both were explosions deep within the mine which produced toxic fumes. Rescue attempts were delayed until the fire was extinguished.

Notable difference . . . Canadians had access to food, water, communications, AND air that would last more than an hour.

The absence of clean air killed the Sago miners.

 

[Looney]

I wonder if the refuge rooms are a Canadian policy or simply Mosaic (the owners of the mine) being safe.

In either case, it was a good thing that no doubt saved many many lives.

 

[Starbuck1975]

During the last quarter of 2005, for instance, federal inspectors at Sago cited or ordered the company to fix 50 safety violations - 19 of them serious and substantial. As a result, the company was fined $24,374 last year. It also recorded 39 accidents in 2005, 16 with injuries requiring days away from work.

Inspectors also noted lesser violations such as electrical equipment maintenance, accumulations of coal dust, inadequate fresh air ventilation of the coal-face, and too few methane monitors. (It is still not known what caused the explosion that trapped and killed the miners.)

We have adequate regulations and safety inspection procedures in place to cite mines for clear safety violations...the problem lies in a federal order to close the mine in the face of such violations...this is not a Republican or Democrat issues, as federal efforts to force mine closings in the past have not succeeded in the courts.

Although federal inspectors have the legal right to close a mine for safety reasons - and often do close sections - it can be difficult to close a mine outright. Courts have been reluctant to support such actions by the government, even when there are a large number of violations, McAteer says.

Similarly, when International Coal Group purchased the Sago mine from Anker West Virginia Mining Company, they began instituting changes that witnessed a dramatic shift towards fixing many of the previously cited violations:

International Coal Group, a private company based in Ashland, Ky., bought the Sago mine from Anker West Virginia Mining Company last year. An ICG spokesperson reserved comment for company officials who were unavailable at press time. But on Monday - before news came that the miners had died - an ICG vice president told reporters that the company had recorded an 80 percent improvement in safety from earlier in the year.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: KB

CNN story about canadian miners:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/01/30/canada.mine.reut/index.html

I don't want to turn this into a Bush and/or American business doesn't care about American workers tirade, but I can't help but wonder how the West Virginia miners may have survived if they lived in canada.
The WV miners had just 1 hour of oxygen on standby on their person. The Canadian miners had safe rooms with 36 hours of food, water and oxygen. Where would you rather work as a miner?

Seems a bit premature to draw valid comparisons/conclusions.

IIRC the miners in WV also had access to "safe rooms", although can't tell if they are of the same type.

Unlike coal dust, which can explode, potash is not flammable. Hence, rescuers may have difficulty in getting to trapped miners etc.

IIRC, the WV miners were down there for 40+ hrs. If that happened in Canada, they may have been killed as well.

Fern

Good point and so was CoW's.

 

[imported_Aelius]

Originally posted by: sandorski
Self-Regulation does not work. That's what is to be learned here.

The problem is they are going to get away with it and the only thing that might happen is there might be a class action lawsuit. I say might because those people aren't exactly rich and even as a group they could loose everything trying to fight a giant company or the company's holders if it has any.

What should happen is there should be a government investigation (preferably state) and if other states decide to investigate the mining company (assuming they have operations out of state) then it could become a federal issue. At that point all safety records for the company as well as all internal emails/mail/memos etc would be subpoenaed and they would be hauled in front of a court to answer for their crimes.

Will that happen and even if it did would the penalty fit the crime? Do I have to even ask that question. Kind of obvious.

Two words. Exxon Valdez.

 

[Looney]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: KB

CNN story about canadian miners:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/01/30/canada.mine.reut/index.html

I don't want to turn this into a Bush and/or American business doesn't care about American workers tirade, but I can't help but wonder how the West Virginia miners may have survived if they lived in canada.
The WV miners had just 1 hour of oxygen on standby on their person. The Canadian miners had safe rooms with 36 hours of food, water and oxygen. Where would you rather work as a miner?

Seems a bit premature to draw valid comparisons/conclusions.

IIRC the miners in WV also had access to "safe rooms", although can't tell if they are of the same type.

Unlike coal dust, which can explode, potash is not flammable. Hence, rescuers may have difficulty in getting to trapped miners etc.

IIRC, the WV miners were down there for 40+ hrs. If that happened in Canada, they may have been killed as well.

First, are you sure they had 'safe rooms' in the WV one? Because i remember watching CNN, and they were saying if there were oxygen tanks down there, they would have lived long enough to be saved.

As for the Canadian one, the saferooms had enough oxygen, food, and water for at least 36 hrs... so they would have been saved.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: KB

CNN story about canadian miners:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/01/30/canada.mine.reut/index.html

I don't want to turn this into a Bush and/or American business doesn't care about American workers tirade, but I can't help but wonder how the West Virginia miners may have survived if they lived in canada.
The WV miners had just 1 hour of oxygen on standby on their person. The Canadian miners had safe rooms with 36 hours of food, water and oxygen. Where would you rather work as a miner?

Actually I do recall hearing that the west virginia mine did in fact have safe rooms with supplies, but they are not much good if a cave in blocks them off.

 

[raildogg]

Originally posted by: Todd33
Those extra precautions cost money and hurt the bottom line, they can get more miners - the school system pumps out potential ones all the time.

See how easy it is to think like a "conservative"?

Yep, another sign that conservatives and Republicans will sweep elections in 06 and 08. Maybe you can whine and cry like Chucky Schumer or Ted Kennedy after those results. Haven't you gotten the message yet? America is sick of people trying to throw crap around. They're sick of people like you.

As for the mines, there needs to be something done. We need quick evacuations and recovery process in place. Yes, free market has its downfalls, but why criticize all of it? Think of the tradeoffs and realize that government control over the economy and this country should be less, not more. As for the mines, the government should require safety procedures.

 

[DVK916]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: KB

CNN story about canadian miners:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/01/30/canada.mine.reut/index.html

I don't want to turn this into a Bush and/or American business doesn't care about American workers tirade, but I can't help but wonder how the West Virginia miners may have survived if they lived in canada.
The WV miners had just 1 hour of oxygen on standby on their person. The Canadian miners had safe rooms with 36 hours of food, water and oxygen. Where would you rather work as a miner?

Actually I do recall hearing that the west virginia mine did in fact have safe rooms with supplies, but they are not much good if a cave in blocks them off.

Actually yes, they did have supplies, and air tanks down there that could have lasted them until the rescue, there was even a convayor belt to it. The thing was they couldn't see down there and had no way of knowing if it was safe or not to venture towards it.

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: raildogg
Yep, another sign that conservatives and Republicans will sweep elections in 06 and 08. Maybe you can whine and cry like Chucky Schumer or Ted Kennedy after those results. Haven't you gotten the message yet? America is sick of people trying to throw crap around. They're sick of people like you.

QFT. All this extremist talk and lashing out by frustrated liberals will only help Republicans come election time. You think they'd be smart enough to realize it!

 

[BrownTown]

wow, its funny how someone can take two completely unrelated events and try to act like the fact they turned out differently is an indication of larger problems. Now, i'll admit i know nothing about mining, nor do I care, but looking at 1 mine disaster in the US and 1 in Canada doesn't tell you anything. I'm sure many Canadian miners die in accidents every year too, before you go blamming anyone, at least try to look at the national statistics. Also, as has been stated before, safe rooms and oxygen only help if you can get to them. If a cave-in occurs between you and the safe room then you are still screwed. Again, I'm not sure about the exact laws governing mining in each country, but i'd say its likely that reasonable saftey measures are in place in both countires to try to avoid as many deaths as possible, but sh|t can still happen.

I'm sure everyone here realise this, but i'll just restate it. There are only limited resources available to people, and we cannot prevent all deaths. Therefore, it is not a heartless or immoral action to not include excessivve saftey devices in a mine like this. The government mandates certain essential saftey precautions, but if even more was required people would still die, but more resources would be used to impliment these precations. These resources have to come from somewhere. Perhaps it means that power plants impliment less saftey precautions to keep the energy prices the same ince fuel is now more expensive. IF not then energy prices go up and less people can afford to cool their houses, and then more people die of heatsrtoke. The point is that accidents will happen in mines so long as people work in them. And, while it is nescecarry for mining companies (or any other company for that matter) to try to protect their employees, they can only go so far due to a lack of resorces.

 

[Looney]

Originally posted by: BrownTown
Also, as has been stated before, safe rooms and oxygen only help if you can get to them. If a cave-in occurs between you and the safe room then you are still screwed.

Mine collapse doesn't happen like it does in Hollywood, where it collapses infront and behind you, so you're trapped in a small pocket.

Again, I'm not sure about the exact laws governing mining in each country, but i'd say its likely that reasonable saftey measures are in place in both countires to try to avoid as many deaths as possible, but sh|t can still happen.

You must not have followed the Sago mine then. Because that had a huge list of violations.

I'm sure everyone here realise this, but i'll just restate it. There are only limited resources available to people, and we cannot prevent all deaths. Therefore, it is not a heartless or immoral action to not include excessivve saftey devices in a mine like this.

It's obviously not 'excessive' when the Canadians could afford to implement it... and saved lives from it.