Canada: Possible fall of government

[Number1]

Originally posted by: dennilfloss

Originally posted by: silverpig

Where's the hyperbole now?

Inside the boot about to go up Harper's ass!

I can't wait to put the boot to the lieberal at the next election. LOL

 

[SlickSnake]

Canada has a government?

I thought they were ruled by giant moose overlords.

And the chances of their moose overlord government falling is about as likely as Dudley Do-right catching Snidely Whiplash.

 

[yllus]

I think Harper's best card now is to threaten to have all of his party's MPs resign their seats if the coalition government takes over.

I'm actually getting more displeased with this whole thing the longer it goes on. Canada in the modern era has had a minority government the vast majority of the time. That's an inescapable fact of life considering the enormity of the country and the amount of different viewpoints in it. Now we're saying that governments formed of the greatest portion of public opinion doesn't necessarily rule anymore? Instead, the entire country west of Ontario can screw off because if we cobble enough seats together from the people who liked this party and the people who liked that party, plus some strategic support from a separatist party, we've technically got the numbers to run the country? That's pretty disgusting.

 

[silverpig]

Originally posted by: yllus
I think Harper's best card now is to threaten to have all of his party's MPs resign their seats if the coalition government takes over.

I'm actually getting more displeased with this whole thing the longer it goes on. Canada in the modern era has had a minority government the vast majority of the time. That's an inescapable fact of life considering the enormity of the country and the amount of different viewpoints in it. Now we're saying that governments formed of the greatest portion of public opinion doesn't necessarily rule anymore? Instead, the entire country west of Ontario can screw off because if we cobble enough seats together from the people who liked this party and the people who liked that party, plus some strategic support from a separatist party, we've technically got the numbers to run the country? That's pretty disgusting.

This goes beyond party lines I would say. We're now in the realm of asking who will actually work together as government and actually get something done via compromise? 140-something seats are going to take their ball and go home if they don't get their way. 160-something seats are willing to work on the problem and see past their differences.

 

[desy]

160 seats are working on a power grab not used in Canada for over a 100 yrs.
While it may be constitutional, its repugnant to most Canadians who believe in democracy.
We used to have slavery 100 yrs ago, women couldn't vote, and Natives couldn't leave the reserves too. Doesn't mean we should go back in time for everything.

Personally, he should Parouque parliment and see if things can be worked out by Jan 1 on an actual budget to vote, if it comes to impass still. GG calls an election where Canadians can decide if they want representation by a Coalition with members (Bloc) bent on the disolution of Canada . . .

I'm not opposed to an NDP/Liberal coalition if they had the seats to form a majority
The Bloc can rot

 

[Number1]

Personally I find the idea of having the NDP in power repugnant. There is also more and more talk about Elisabeth May getting an appointment to the senate and then being brought in the coalition government.

The green are going to have more of an input on how this country is run then the Conservatives DESPITE THE FACT THE GREENS DID NOT ELECT A SINGLE MEMBER TO PARLIAMENT.


The PM and the Coalition will be on TV tonight. The PM will announce he will proceed with proroguing parliament as I predicted buying more time to prepare his budget to be presented in January.

Expect the coalition to argue that they need to take over the government right now to deal with the economic crisis. A bogus argument considering the fact it will take some time for them to take power and draft an economic package that would not be ready before the Conservatives plan is ready anyway.

The PM put us in this mess and it's up to him to get us out.

We are all watching.

 

[OutHouse]

being American i dont have a clue about Canadian politics.

 

[OutHouse]

Originally posted by: Number1
I watched question period today and let me tell you: it was better then watching a UFC title fight. It is CLEAR the PM will not give up without a fight. It was also clear why Dion lost the support from the Canadian people during the last election. The man got so flustered he became unintelligible. A mumbling babling stuttering fool.

Is THIS who will be our prime minister???

Please, it's not funny, THIS MAN may very well become our prime minister.

Where is my puke bucket.

edit = spelling

hahaha what a tool!

"if you were PM today what would you do"
"i dont understand the question..."

hahahah

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: silverpig
This goes beyond party lines I would say. We're now in the realm of asking who will actually work together as government and actually get something done via compromise? 140-something seats are going to take their ball and go home if they don't get their way. 160-something seats are willing to work on the problem and see past their differences.

I don't think that's an accurate description of the situation. The Conservatives have governed somewhere between average to good over the last few years, and there is no sign that this would not continue. This is simple opportunism, as evidenced by Mr. Layton's comments to his caucus - it's not about policy.

And again, for the majority of this country's lifespan, we've had minority governments. Opposition parties did not attempt what's being tried today because they realized that the mandate to govern often comes from the greatest portion of the vote - not necessarily the majority. It effectively means that elections no longer matter unless you can somehow manage to get the majority of the seats in the country. That's sickening.

 

[silverpig]

Originally posted by: Citrix
being American i dont have a clue about Canadian politics.

It was pretty boring for a while, our "big scandals" are about a few million dollars going mission, nothing like US politics.

Now though it's pretty interesting.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: silverpig
This goes beyond party lines I would say. We're now in the realm of asking who will actually work together as government and actually get something done via compromise? 140-something seats are going to take their ball and go home if they don't get their way. 160-something seats are willing to work on the problem and see past their differences.

I don't think that's an accurate description of the situation. The Conservatives have governed somewhere between average to good over the last few years, and there is no sign that this would not continue. This is simple opportunism, as evidenced by Mr. Layton's comments to his caucus - it's not about policy.

And again, for the majority of this country's lifespan, we've had minority governments. Opposition parties did not attempt what's being tried today because they realized that the mandate to govern often comes from the greatest portion of the vote - not necessarily the majority. It effectively means that elections no longer matter unless you can somehow manage to get the majority of the seats in the country. That's sickening.

Huh? If you are 10-14 years old, maybe. Majority? Not even close.

 

[silverpig]

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: silverpig
This goes beyond party lines I would say. We're now in the realm of asking who will actually work together as government and actually get something done via compromise? 140-something seats are going to take their ball and go home if they don't get their way. 160-something seats are willing to work on the problem and see past their differences.

I don't think that's an accurate description of the situation. The Conservatives have governed somewhere between average to good over the last few years, and there is no sign that this would not continue. This is simple opportunism, as evidenced by Mr. Layton's comments to his caucus - it's not about policy.

And again, for the majority of this country's lifespan, we've had minority governments. Opposition parties did not attempt what's being tried today because they realized that the mandate to govern often comes from the greatest portion of the vote - not necessarily the majority. It effectively means that elections no longer matter unless you can somehow manage to get the majority of the seats in the country. That's sickening.

In the past minority governments didn't insist on making every piece of legislation a confidence motion. The only reason the Conservatives did well is because they pushed their way around, taking advantage of a weak new opposition leader who didn't want an election, made every vote one of confidence and dared the other parties to bring them down.

Finally now they are standing up to Harper and his attempts to cripple the other parties and strengthen his own party's position as opposed to working with the other MPs and governing. Harper never worked with the other parties on anything.

A minority government needs politicians who are willing to work with the other side, not against them. It works other places in the world, it has worked here in the past, it is not working now. The opposition, with their coalition proposal, has taken a large step towards proving they can work together. Harper and the Conservatives have done the opposite.

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: sandorski
Huh? If you are 10-14 years old, maybe. Majority? Not even close.

See chart.

Originally posted by: silverpig
In the past minority governments didn't insist on making every piece of legislation a confidence motion. The only reason the Conservatives did well is because they pushed their way around, taking advantage of a weak new opposition leader who didn't want an election, made every vote one of confidence and dared the other parties to bring them down.

Finally now they are standing up to Harper and his attempts to cripple the other parties and strengthen his own party's position as opposed to working with the other MPs and governing. Harper never worked with the other parties on anything.

A minority government needs politicians who are willing to work with the other side, not against them. It works other places in the world, it has worked here in the past, it is not working now. The opposition, with their coalition proposal, has taken a large step towards proving they can work together. Harper and the Conservatives have done the opposite.

That's actually a good point - the current Conservative government's bully posture is certainly the reason we are at this juncture. However, I don't think it warrants the coup d'etat that's being proposed. They've kept their minority government going since 2006 for a reason - they do get the votes (or at least the lack of dissent) needed to pass legislation.

I can't really get too worked up about this because although my level of disgust with the NDP is nearly up there with Number1's, the amount of sucking up to voters that is bound to happen with this coalition is going to be great for my city (Toronto). It's the non-urban, non-Ontario/Quebec voters that will get the shaft.

 

[AnitaPeterson]

Originally posted by: dennilfloss
"May you live in interesting times" is not really a curse to some of us but a blessing.

gee, thanks, mate!

 

[Vic]

Interesting situation. Really highlights the potential volatility always lurking behind the seemingly placid facades of parliamentary govts. Anyway, I don't have an opinion either way, but it sure seems to me that Harper really f'ed up in pushing a confidence motion so soon after the elections.

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: Vic
Interesting situation. Really highlights the potential volatility always lurking behind the seemingly placid facades of parliamentary govts. Anyway, I don't have an opinion either way, but it sure seems to me that Harper really f'ed up in pushing a confidence motion so soon after the elections.

If he falls (and it looks like he will), it'll be very much like how Thatcher fell - due to abundant and unwarranted arrogance. He's a good PM, though.

 

[silverpig]

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: sandorski
Huh? If you are 10-14 years old, maybe. Majority? Not even close.

See chart.

Originally posted by: silverpig
In the past minority governments didn't insist on making every piece of legislation a confidence motion. The only reason the Conservatives did well is because they pushed their way around, taking advantage of a weak new opposition leader who didn't want an election, made every vote one of confidence and dared the other parties to bring them down.

Finally now they are standing up to Harper and his attempts to cripple the other parties and strengthen his own party's position as opposed to working with the other MPs and governing. Harper never worked with the other parties on anything.

A minority government needs politicians who are willing to work with the other side, not against them. It works other places in the world, it has worked here in the past, it is not working now. The opposition, with their coalition proposal, has taken a large step towards proving they can work together. Harper and the Conservatives have done the opposite.

That's actually a good point - the current Conservative government's bully posture is certainly the reason we are at this juncture. However, I don't think it warrants the coup d'etat that's being proposed. They've kept their minority government going since 2006 for a reason - they do get the votes (or at least the lack of dissent) needed to pass legislation.

I can't really get too worked up about this because although my level of disgust with the NDP is nearly up there with Number1's, the amount of sucking up to voters that is bound to happen with this coalition is going to be great for my city (Toronto). It's the non-urban, non-Ontario/Quebec voters that will get the shaft.

They only got the lack of dissent because the Liberal party was in a shambles in the wake of the sponsorship scandal. The Liberals are arguably in even worse shape now but I guess they had to do something.

The opposition had to do something to force Harper's hand. This move could also be seen as a way to get the Conservatives to back down. Maybe they'll offer to prorogue parliament with the promise of electing a new Conservative leader who will bring in a new stimulus package by February. They can ensure the Conservatives will work with them, but first they have to stand up to Harper and that's exactly what they're doing.

I'm definitely not an NDP fan either. I really like Layton's passion and drive, but feel it is misplaced. That being said I'd like him and the NDP to still have a voice in parliament in some respect, just not a strong one

Here in Vancouver I'm glad I voted for my MP based on her reputation and character and not on her party. At least I can be sure that I made the right decision for my riding and that I have a voice in parliament (I have a Liberal MP).

 

[AnitaPeterson]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: Number1
The coalition is coming so let see what the NDP has in mind for Canada.

The socialist agenda:

- Slash greenhouse gas emissions by 80 per cent below 1990 levels by 2050

- Raise $2.5-billion a year in carbon auctions and reinvest the money in public transit and other green initiatives

- Halt new tar sands development until carbon emissions are capped and protected areas set aside

- Meet 35 per cent of Canada's energy needs by 2020 with renewable energy, including biomass, wind power and renewable fuels

- $600-million for industry innovation fund to help businesses reduce energy use

- New clean water act that includes ban on fresh water exports, minimum of secondary water treatment in municipalities, and a $10-million safe water fund to address issues of emerging pollutants

- Reestablish national minimum wage at $10 an hour and index it to inflation

- $750-million a year job fund to train workers for "green-collar" jobs, which includes installing and maintaining energy efficient and renewable energy technology

- Appoint job protection commissioner to probe major layoffs and shutdowns

- Lower the small business tax rate to 10 per cent from 11 per cent

- Outlaw use of replacement workers in strikes or lockouts

- A new monthly cheque of up to $400 that would replace three existing child benefits, including the Conservatives' $100-a-month cheque. A family with two children and an income of $75,000 would take in an extra $2,140 a year

- Eliminate poverty in Canada by 2020 by setting firm targets, establishing a poverty elimination office within HRDC, and economic measures such as national minimum wage and new child benefit
- National child care program calling for 150,000 new child care spaces in the first year, growing to 220,000 spaces annually in the fourth year

- $1-billion national home-care program for seniors
$1-billion a year on a new catastrophic drug plan

- $200-million a year to increase training spaces and expand Canada's medical schools by 50 per cent

- Establish mental health crisis response centres

- Dedicate one per cent of Health Canada budget to physical fitness and amateur sports promotion

- $1,000-a-year grant to all undergraduate or equivalent students who qualify for student loans

- Broaden eligibility for EI benefits to Canadians engaged in full-time training and retraining programs

- $4-billion for transit over four years

- Invest one cent of GST in infrastructure by 2011

- Dedicate one per cent of federal spending to affordable housing within 10 years

- Ban ATM fees for institutions regulated under the Bank Act

- Limit interest rates and fees by "fringe banks," including on pay day loans, tax refund advances and cheque cashing

- Cap interest rates on credit card to 5 percentage points over prime

- Mandatory labelling of farmed fish, genetically engineered food

- Enable cities and provinces to ban handguns

- 2,500 new police officer positions

- Federally funded permanent youth gang diversion strategy

- Set national standards for use of Tasers

- Repeal use of security certificates

Source: http://www.theglobeandmail.com.../BNStory/politics/home

I almost forgot.

Defense

-the immediate and unconditional surrender and retreat of all Canadian forces from Afghanistan.

-more social programs with the "peace dividends" realized with the withdrawal of our forces from Afghanistan.


Once they are done, you won't recognize the country if we still have a country. I mean come on. Read these and ask yourself, is this what we really want for Canada?

NO and we overwhelmingly votes against those policies.

But now its all back on thanks to the three stooges.

Not to worry, will just have to deal with them come election time if we still have a country by then.

What a bunch.

So, other than a cut n run from Afghanistan, which of these policies is entirely ridiculous and unpalatable?

I was about to ask the same thing... These look like really good policies - social protection, energy efficiency, a renewed emphasis on education and child care...

YES, THIS IS THE CANADA I'D LIKE TO LIVE IN!!!

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: sandorski
Huh? If you are 10-14 years old, maybe. Majority? Not even close.

See chart.

Originally posted by: silverpig
In the past minority governments didn't insist on making every piece of legislation a confidence motion. The only reason the Conservatives did well is because they pushed their way around, taking advantage of a weak new opposition leader who didn't want an election, made every vote one of confidence and dared the other parties to bring them down.

Finally now they are standing up to Harper and his attempts to cripple the other parties and strengthen his own party's position as opposed to working with the other MPs and governing. Harper never worked with the other parties on anything.

A minority government needs politicians who are willing to work with the other side, not against them. It works other places in the world, it has worked here in the past, it is not working now. The opposition, with their coalition proposal, has taken a large step towards proving they can work together. Harper and the Conservatives have done the opposite.

That's actually a good point - the current Conservative government's bully posture is certainly the reason we are at this juncture. However, I don't think it warrants the coup d'etat that's being proposed. They've kept their minority government going since 2006 for a reason - they do get the votes (or at least the lack of dissent) needed to pass legislation.

I can't really get too worked up about this because although my level of disgust with the NDP is nearly up there with Number1's, the amount of sucking up to voters that is bound to happen with this coalition is going to be great for my city (Toronto). It's the non-urban, non-Ontario/Quebec voters that will get the shaft.

1) The Chart/Article does not support your position.

2) It's not a "Coup d'etat". The Opposition has every Right to call a Confidence Vote and Defeat the Government. Due to the close proximity of the last Election, a Coalition is a very legitimate alternative to form a working Government. You are very correct, in that Harper should not have put himself into this position and that he has been goading the Opposition into to doing just what they have done for a long time now. The big difference here is not the Coalition, but the Timing of the Event. If this occurred just a few months ago an Election would be the logical result, but because we just had an Election immediately triggering another Election is not very logical.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: silverpig

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: sandorski
Huh? If you are 10-14 years old, maybe. Majority? Not even close.

See chart.

Originally posted by: silverpig
In the past minority governments didn't insist on making every piece of legislation a confidence motion. The only reason the Conservatives did well is because they pushed their way around, taking advantage of a weak new opposition leader who didn't want an election, made every vote one of confidence and dared the other parties to bring them down.

Finally now they are standing up to Harper and his attempts to cripple the other parties and strengthen his own party's position as opposed to working with the other MPs and governing. Harper never worked with the other parties on anything.

A minority government needs politicians who are willing to work with the other side, not against them. It works other places in the world, it has worked here in the past, it is not working now. The opposition, with their coalition proposal, has taken a large step towards proving they can work together. Harper and the Conservatives have done the opposite.

That's actually a good point - the current Conservative government's bully posture is certainly the reason we are at this juncture. However, I don't think it warrants the coup d'etat that's being proposed. They've kept their minority government going since 2006 for a reason - they do get the votes (or at least the lack of dissent) needed to pass legislation.

I can't really get too worked up about this because although my level of disgust with the NDP is nearly up there with Number1's, the amount of sucking up to voters that is bound to happen with this coalition is going to be great for my city (Toronto). It's the non-urban, non-Ontario/Quebec voters that will get the shaft.

They only got the lack of dissent because the Liberal party was in a shambles in the wake of the sponsorship scandal. The Liberals are arguably in even worse shape now but I guess they had to do something.

The opposition had to do something to force Harper's hand. This move could also be seen as a way to get the Conservatives to back down. Maybe they'll offer to prorogue parliament with the promise of electing a new Conservative leader who will bring in a new stimulus package by February. They can ensure the Conservatives will work with them, but first they have to stand up to Harper and that's exactly what they're doing.

I'm definitely not an NDP fan either. I really like Layton's passion and drive, but feel it is misplaced. That being said I'd like him and the NDP to still have a voice in parliament in some respect, just not a strong one

Here in Vancouver I'm glad I voted for my MP based on her reputation and character and not on her party. At least I can be sure that I made the right decision for my riding and that I have a voice in parliament (I have a Liberal MP).

I agree. Harper should Prorogue for a month, come back with a real Plan, cease his ridiculous games of Brinksmanship, and hope the Opposition backs down. If the Opposition does not back down, install the Coalition as Government. Harper's stupidity took his fate out of his hands.

One thing the Conservatives can do in order to avoid defeat is to replace Harper.

 

[libs0n]

Originally posted by: yllus
I think Harper's best card now is to threaten to have all of his party's MPs resign their seats if the coalition government takes over.

I'm actually getting more displeased with this whole thing the longer it goes on. Canada in the modern era has had a minority government the vast majority of the time. That's an inescapable fact of life considering the enormity of the country and the amount of different viewpoints in it. Now we're saying that governments formed of the greatest portion of public opinion doesn't necessarily rule anymore? Instead, the entire country west of Ontario can screw off because if we cobble enough seats together from the people who liked this party and the people who liked that party, plus some strategic support from a separatist party, we've technically got the numbers to run the country? That's pretty disgusting.

That the Conservtives have the largest single block of voters is irrelevant. We elect Members of Parliament; to form government a party must have the confidence of the House, which means a majority of those members must support it. The Conservatives do not have that confidence, therefore they are not the legitimate government of Canada. The Liberal-NDP coalition would have the confidence of the House, therefore it is the legitimate government of Canada.

Other districts have elected MPs, and it turns out they matter as well. You act as if only those districts that elected Conservative matter. Popular will? A case can be made that the coalition represents a greater popular will than the Conservatives alone.

 

[dennilfloss]

If I feel well enough, I'll attend the rally tomorrow on Parliament Hill and take some pictures.

 

[dennilfloss]

I hope Her Excellency listened to The Right Honourable Edward Schreyer's informed opinion this afternoon: no prorogation just to avoid a vote of non confidence. The government must at all times be able to prove it has the confidence of the House of Commons by facing a vote of (non)confidence. That is a fundamental aspect of Westminster-style parliamentarism.

A thought just crossed my mind: what if Her Excellency decides that she needs a few days to consult experts and agrees to meet Mr. Harper Monday night or Tuesday morning?

 

[dennilfloss]

Gee... Why do most CPC MPs and conservative commentators seem so unaware of the workings of a Westminster-style parliament? Is it really on purpose (I mean do they just ignore the constitutional issues to concentrate on the political message)?

I tend to hear the theme from Green Acres in my head whenever one appears on camera.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: dennilfloss
Gee... Why do most CPC MPs and conservative commentators seem so unaware of the workings of a Westminster-style parliament? Is it really on purpose (I mean do they just ignore the constitutional issues to concentrate on the political message)?

I tend to hear the theme from Green Acres in my head whenever one appears on camera.

Yes.

Everyone does it when it's to their advantage, but the Harper Conservatives are true masters of this.