Can you use Fish tank pumps for water cooling?

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: Greenman
Whatever.

:laugh: Gee, I expected better from the self-styled Pope of air-cooling (who strangely says that he uses water).

 

[H20Cool]

 

[H20Cool]

Light-loving spora aren't the only things you have to worry about when deciding on a coolant mixture.

You're right, but we were talking about algae specifically, we weren't talking about types of coolant or anything else.

At any rate, straight tap water should never be used without an additive designed to buffer the solution and kill whatever organisms are present.

This would be common sense, woundn't it? I was simply stating that even if you used straight tap water, in the absence of light, algae wouldn't be your problem. That's not to say that it wouldn't cause other biologicals to proliferate and/or cause mineral deposit problems. It was purely hypothetical.

Not all algae needs light.

Yes it does. All plants use photosynthesis to convert light and carbon dioxide to grow. All algae and all plants use light in varying degrees to grow and reproduce, without it, they'll die. Simple.

If you don't believe me and you have older plumbing, remove the strainer and look into the neck of your kitchen faucet.

Light can easily permeate inside a faucet a few inches, enough to allow some algae to grow, especially over so many years.

I'm sorry, but you're wrong on this.

You don't have to apologize because I'm not wrong, you just misunderstood what I meant.

Non-annodized aluminum blocks are rare today, if you can find one at all. Most loops simply don't have the components that will, by themselves, cause galvanic\parasitic corrosion.

Maybe... but what about copper and brass? What about aluminum heater cores that aren't anodized. Corrosion most certainly can be an issue, depending on what you have in your loop. But that's really not the issue here.

I think you didn't quite understand what I meant in my previous post. I didn't mean for people to start using tap water in their cooling loops, that would be asenine. All I meant was that even if you did, without light, algae wouldn't be your problem, that's not to say you wouldn't have other problems. Obviously, pure distilled water with a 5 to 10% coolant mixture is the best solution for water cooling, it's what I've used for the past four months, and I haven't had any problems.

Just to recap, here's what was said:

I ever wondered if algae would grow in the warm CPU heatsink blocking the water flow eventually

Yup, it will. if you aren't very careful about your coolant mixture.

-----------------

All I was saying was that, in the absence of light, you won't get algae anyway, regardless if coolant is used or not. I didn't mean for it to turn into a discussion on what types of coolant to use. We were talking about algae.

Anyway, on to another topic, shall we?

 

[HardWarrior]

You're right, but we were talking about algae specifically, we weren't talking about types of coolant or anything else.

This is what I responded to:

"I ever wondered if algae would grow in the warm CPU heatsink blocking the water flow eventually"

Simply put, your statement above isn't germane. Moreover, how can you say you were discussing anything when your first post in this thread was this and directed towards me:

"True, to some degree. If your case has no lighting in it whatsoever, than algae shouldn't be a problem even with staight water with nothing added. That's why most water pipes are opaque, so light can't pass through them. Algae needs light to grow, without it, no algae. Additives are usually incorporated for their corrosion protection, not nessecarily to prevent algae."

This would be common sense, woundn't it? I was simply stating that even if you used straight tap water, in the absence of light, algae wouldn't be your problem. That's not to say that it wouldn't cause other biologicals to proliferate and/or cause mineral deposit problems. It was purely hypothetical.

No, it wouldn't even approach common sense, at least in terms of what I think you're getting at. Folks have, and continue to use all manner of substances as additives. Hypothetical? No, that's not the way you posed the statement, and you know it.

Yes it does. All plants use photosynthesis to convert light and carbon dioxide to grow. All algae and all plants use light in varying degrees to grow and reproduce, without it, they'll die. Simple.

Again, you're wrong. Some forms of algae aren't plant cells at all, but animal cells.

Light can easily permeate inside a faucet a few inches, enough to allow some algae to grow, especially over so many years.

You're grasping at straws here. It would be easier to admit that you were wrong at this point.

You don't have to apologize because I'm not wrong, you just misunderstood what I meant.

Yes you are, you're just too tender to admit it.

Maybe... but what about copper and brass? What about aluminum heater cores that aren't anodized. Corrosion most certainly can be an issue, depending on what you have in your loop. But that's really not the issue here.

What about copper and brass? Is anyone in this day and age stupid enough to buy non-annodized AL FRU's? Frankly I don't think you have the slightest idea what the issue is, BTW.

I think you didn't quite understand what I meant in my previous post.

Sure I did, what I didn't do was fall for your meatball science class like the greenhorn you thought I was.

I didn't mean for people to start using tap water in their cooling loops, that would be asenine.

Again, THIS is what you posted:

"True, to some degree. If your case has no lighting in it whatsoever, than algae shouldn't be a problem even with staight water with nothing added. That's why most water pipes are opaque, so light can't pass through them. Algae needs light to grow, without it, no algae. Additives are usually incorporated for their corrosion protection, not nessecarily to prevent algae."

Do you remember posting this at all?

All I meant was that even if you did, without light, algae wouldn't be your problem, that's not to say you wouldn't have other problems.

With biologics, right? Then why even mention a pitch-black case at all? Wouldn't it just be easier to buy a dedicated biocide (kills plant AND animal cells) and toss a few drops in?

Obviously, pure distilled water with a 5 to 10% coolant mixture is the best solution for water cooling, it's what I've used for the past four months, and I haven't had any problems.

Obviously? There's no such thing as "pure distilled water." The minute you pop the cap and start pouring you loose anything approaching sterility. What about your loop itself? Unless you run it through an autoclave and assemble your box in a clean-room it's dripping with all sorts of biology, and some of it LOVES the methanol in that mystery "coolant mixture" you mentioned. Again, it's easier to just use a biocide, at least for people who have an idea what they're doing. 4-months huh? Let it run for another 6 and then brag.

All I was saying was that, ....

Yeah, I got that, and you're wrong.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: HardWarrior
Light-loving spora aren't the only things you have to worry about when deciding on a coolant mixture. At any rate, straight tap water should never be used without an additive designed to buffer the solution and kill whatever organisms are present. Most water pipes are either underground or in walls, as such I think you're inventing a corelation that doesn't exist. Not all algae needs light. If you don't believe me and you have older plumbing, remove the strainer and look into the neck of your kitchen faucet.

Not to nit-pick, but those are bacteria, not algae. Algae do need light to grow.

I am curious - has anyone actually experienced such growth in a watercooling system? What kind of time frame did you experience for the growth of this stuff? It seems to me that, without a source of food, the growth should be very limited and any growth should die off fairly quickly. All this unless you're pumping wastewater into your system, of course. Maybe watercooling loops aren't as hermetically sealed as I'm picturing them? I'm not trying to say that anyone is wrong (as I am actually pretty sure I am the one who is wrong), just curious as to how this comes about in a real system.

 

[Zebo]

You're thinking. With no nutriants to eat bacteria and flora does'nt do so well. I've had the same loop for a year and it's crystal clear... Besides most anti-freeze contains ethylene glycol and a ester, mild bacterialcides... With nothing to "eat" and a harsh enviroment I don't see growth if you use DI water and some dex-cool around 10-20%.

 

[Greenman]

Originally posted by: HardWarrior

Originally posted by: Greenman
Whatever.

:laugh: Gee, I expected better from the self-styled Pope of air-cooling (who strangely says that he uses water).

Me thinks you missed my point. I think water cooling is a fine idea, I also think it's often more money and grief than it's worth. Pretty simple really. I did it because it sounded like a fun project, but the only real value it has is that I enjoyed doing it.

 

[DanDaMan315]

Originally posted by: Zebo
You're thinking. With no nutriants to eat bacteria and flora does'nt do so well. I've had the same loop for a year and it's crystal clear... Besides most anti-freeze contains ethylene glycol and a ester, mild bacterialcides... With nothing to "eat" and a harsh enviroment I don't see growth if you use DI water and some dex-cool around 10-20%.

Zebo what are you using for your water cooling setup?

 

[Zebo]

Black ICE Pro III $90
3x120mm Nexus fans $45
Eheim 1250 (fish pump) $55
Relay $10
1/2 in tube from Danger Den $12
Danger Den TDX and MAZE for GPU $91


You can get away a lot cheaper though buy using auto cores, cheaper fans, cheaper pump, cheaper blocks etc... Mines setup for total silence which costs more.

EX:

Heater core: $19 (either 84 chevette for single fan or 71 Blazer for dual fan)
Sunon 120mm x 38mm fan $9
Homemade shroud out from tupperware@ target $3
Danner Mag3 $22 (on sale at petsmart right now)
Swifteh 6002 $42
Clear flex 6 ft $5

total = $100


If you want a whole kit, no brainer, here's one for $105
http://www.aquastealth.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=9&HS=1

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: Greenman

Originally posted by: HardWarrior

Originally posted by: Greenman
Whatever.

:laugh: Gee, I expected better from the self-styled Pope of air-cooling (who strangely says that he uses water).

Me thinks you missed my point. I think water cooling is a fine idea, I also think it's often more money and grief than it's worth. Pretty simple really. I did it because it sounded like a fun project, but the only real value it has is that I enjoyed doing it.

"Me thinks you missed my point." That's the pat response in places like this when two people just plain don't agree and one of them wants an easy way out. Sort of like "whatever." Thanks anyway, GM.

 

[H20Cool]

Algae definitions from a quick Google search: (important point in caps)

Microscopic plant-like organisms that contain chlorophyll. Algae are nourished by carbon dioxide (CO2) and use sunlight to carry out photosynthesis. There are 21,000 known species of algae. The most common pool types and black, blue-green, green and mustard (yellow or drawn). Pink or red-colored algae-like organisms exist but are BACTERIA and NOT ALGAE.

Microscopic single cell plants that grow in water, contains cholorphyll and REQUIRES SUNLIGHT.

Simple rootless plants that grow in SUNLIT waters in relative proportion to the amounts of nutrients available.

Algae needs light to grow period, end of story. Were not talking about bacteria here. Do I have to repeat this again.

No, it wouldn't even approach common sense, at least in terms of what I think you're getting at.

Well, it has been said that "common sense" is not so common. Well, it makes sense to me, that tap water is full of minerals and would potentially cause problems with mineral deposits in your loop.

Hypothetical? No, that's not the way you posed the statement, and you know it.

Are you trying to convince me or something? I don't use tap water, I don't recommend using tap water. I was using a worst case scenario situation to explain that without light, algae wouldn't be a problem regardless of how bad the cooling substance was.

Again, you're wrong. Some forms of algae aren't plant cells at all, but animal cells.

Please do enlighten me on this new animal called algae.

Light can easily permeate inside a faucet a few inches, enough to allow some algae to grow, especially over so many years.

You're grasping at straws here. It would be easier to admit that you were wrong at this point.

Light can penetrate a pin hole and you're telling me that I'm grasping at straws? You just can't face the facts that algae needs light grow. You sure that wasn't fungus you saw? There is a difference.

You don't have to apologize because I'm not wrong, you just misunderstood what I meant.

Yes you are, you're just too tender to admit it.

I think you didn't quite understand what I meant in my previous post.

Sure I did, what I didn't do was fall for your meatball science class like the greenhorn you thought I was.

When you start getting personal, you've lost the argument. I didn't think you were anything. I don't make assumptionson personalities based on a discussion over algae.
How is this meatball science, what, that algae needs light? Ok, I guess I'll stick with my so called "meatball" science and you stick with your bunk science.

True, to some degree. If your case has no lighting in it whatsoever, than algae shouldn't be a problem even with staight water with nothing added. That's why most water pipes are opaque, so light can't pass through them. Algae needs light to grow, without it, no algae. Additives are usually incorporated for their corrosion protection, not nessecarily to prevent algae.

Notice I said, "EVEN with straight water with nothing added". What this means is that even in the worst case scenario, using the worst form of coolant, algae won't be a problem in the absence of light.

With biologics, right? Then why even mention a pitch-black case at all? Wouldn't it just be easier to buy a dedicated biocide (kills plant AND animal cells) and toss a few drops in?

Yes it would be easier. I was just stating a point about algae needing light to grow, nothing else.

Obviously? There's no such thing as "pure distilled water." The minute you pop the cap and start pouring you loose anything approaching sterility. What about your loop itself? Unless you run it through an autoclave and assemble your box in a clean-room it's dripping with all sorts of biology, and some of it LOVES the methanol in that mystery "coolant mixture" you mentioned. Again, it's easier to just use a biocide, at least for people who have an idea what they're doing. 4-months huh? Let it run for another 6 and then brag.

Come on man, now your just getting nit picky. When I went to the drugstore to buy distilled water, it said on the label "pure distilled water". I know damn well it's not sterilized to perfection. It is stripped of most minerals though and that's the important thing, not that there are a few bacteria in it. I feel like I have to explain every bloody detail to you. Your just trying to confuse the issue with useless details.

Simply put, we were talking about algae. I said that algae won't be a problem in a loop in the absence of light, and that's true. Doesn't matter what coolant you use, without light, algae doesn't grow.

I'm getting tired with this discussion. You've tried misdirecting, misconstruing, and confusing the issue by trying to twist my words to make the issue about coolant types, what's pure or not, not to mention taking every word to it's literal meaning like "pure distilled water", etc, when the issue was quite simply about algae. I never meant for this to become a discussion about anything else but algae. So I feel I have to defend what I did and didn't say. Such is the reallity of the internet, it's a little harder to articulate with typed words than it is with spoken words.

You can respond and say that indeed I was wrong, and if that makes you feel better about yourself, then great. Let's just agree to disagree and we'll move on.

 

[Zebo]

Greenman you *can* get resonably quiet with air but not silent. I always tell people to follow link in my sig which is all air because that's all most people need to be happy...But there are some serious issues with high performance parts.

Couple issues with air. First being video card. How do you cool a 6800ultra silently? No fan can do it since it must spin at high RPM, even the artic coolings are loud when you get going in games. With water, just slap a block on it, done, silent.

Moving on to CPU. Again high performance and high OC + silent is impossilble with even nexus and Thermalright 120 because the fan MUST spin at high rpm over such a small surface area to dissapate heat. With water, just slap a block on it, done, silent.

Where did the heat go? To the a radiator, something with 10x-30x the surface area of those two HS combined which can be silently cooled with low rpm fans. Physics, not a novelty like you seem to portary it.

 

[Greenman]

Originally posted by: HardWarrior

Originally posted by: Greenman

Originally posted by: HardWarrior

Originally posted by: Greenman
Whatever.

:laugh: Gee, I expected better from the self-styled Pope of air-cooling (who strangely says that he uses water).

Me thinks you missed my point. I think water cooling is a fine idea, I also think it's often more money and grief than it's worth. Pretty simple really. I did it because it sounded like a fun project, but the only real value it has is that I enjoyed doing it.

"Me thinks you missed my point." That's the pat response in places like this when two people just plain don't agree and one of them wants an easy way out. Sort of like "whatever." Thanks anyway, GM.

Yes it was a pat response, as I have no desire to waste any more time on the subject or you. Is that clear enough? If you need to feel you've won before you can disengage, thats fine as well. You win, everyone should water cool their computer, the time and money you spent on it are justifed. You're good enough, smart enough, and people like you. Everyone wishes they had an e-penis as big as yours.
Would you please stop bothering me now.


Edit: Zebo posted while I was writing.
I agree air has it's limits, I just think it should be looked as well. What I said that started all this was that air is pretty good, and worth a look before going to water. OCing never entered the picture.
I folllowed the link in your sig the other night, a very good read, and a few ideas I intend to use. I like a quiet computer, I might even go to a stainless box with a squirel cage blower. Panasonic makes one that is pretty quiet.

 

[Zebo]

Oh yeah.. Air should always be looked at first for satisfaction.. very good products out there.. And your wallet will be more full.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: HardWarrior
Light-loving spora aren't the only things you have to worry about when deciding on a coolant mixture. At any rate, straight tap water should never be used without an additive designed to buffer the solution and kill whatever organisms are present. Most water pipes are either underground or in walls, as such I think you're inventing a corelation that doesn't exist. Not all algae needs light. If you don't believe me and you have older plumbing, remove the strainer and look into the neck of your kitchen faucet.

Not to nit-pick, but those are bacteria, not algae. Algae do need light to grow.

I am curious - has anyone actually experienced such growth in a watercooling system? What kind of time frame did you experience for the growth of this stuff? It seems to me that, without a source of food, the growth should be very limited and any growth should die off fairly quickly. All this unless you're pumping wastewater into your system, of course. Maybe watercooling loops aren't as hermetically sealed as I'm picturing them? I'm not trying to say that anyone is wrong (as I am actually pretty sure I am the one who is wrong), just curious as to how this comes about in a real system.

If you had an active culture of animal algae, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. There are MANY types of algae. Some strains even exist in a grey zone between between plant and animal life. It's not as simply as "Light=Algae_No light=No Algae." Remember, google in indeed you friend.

In a loop of mine, no. Again, as long as you use the right mixture (with a pH of 7-8) and replace it at regular intervals, you're good. There's one problem with the idea of no-food=no-life. Even the most caustic of additives (some of which can be damaging to certain components of your loop, BTW) will breakdown into increasing less caustic transitional chemicals (over time), that may be part of some bugs food cycle. NO home water-cooling loop is sterile or completly sealed, or safe, from potential biological contamination. Life is way too perisitent for that.

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: The Pentium Guy
My friend uses the water from his fish tank for his watercooling thing. I'm surprised the fishies haven't died yet (they're tropical fish I guess?)...... although he said he kept the fishes in there becuase it gives him comapny *rolleyes*

thats twisted unless the fish are warm water fish of some sort. plus...no coolant stuff? corrosion bad. coolant = poison

 

[Zebo]

I might even go to a stainless box with a squirel cage blower. Panasonic makes one that is pretty quiet.

Link?

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: Greenman

Originally posted by: HardWarrior

Originally posted by: Greenman

Originally posted by: HardWarrior

Originally posted by: Greenman
Whatever.

:laugh: Gee, I expected better from the self-styled Pope of air-cooling (who strangely says that he uses water).

Me thinks you missed my point. I think water cooling is a fine idea, I also think it's often more money and grief than it's worth. Pretty simple really. I did it because it sounded like a fun project, but the only real value it has is that I enjoyed doing it.

"Me thinks you missed my point." That's the pat response in places like this when two people just plain don't agree and one of them wants an easy way out. Sort of like "whatever." Thanks anyway, GM.

Yes it was a pat response, as I have no desire to waste any more time on the subject or you. Is that clear enough? (snip)

The only thing that's "clear" is that you think way too much of your opinion. So much so that you feel the need to state it ad nausem, "in every water-cooling thread", like it's a gift to the poor, dumb (m)asses. What's the difference between this and email spam? None, and for people who just want some advice, not a goddamn lecture on whether "air is getting better" or not.

I'd imagine that most of those who are investigating water not only COME from air, but have investigated their options, wouldn't you? My guess is no, you don't seem able to see anything beyond the tip of your own pointy, little nose. Based on your lackluster, slack-jawed "performance" so far, it's hard to tell what you prefer, air or water.

Is THIS clear enough, sleepy-head?

 

[Taejin]

Guys, your normal run of the mill algae that you find contaminating your water sources undergo photosynthesis.

They need light. We all know there are aberrations in nature, but those are far and few in between, as well as being rare. It would be totally ridiculous of you to suggest that it's going to happen to enough people running watercooling setups to make a difference.

If we wanted to play theory wars, we could do this ad infinitum. Realistically speaking, if you have a closed case w/ no light YOU WILL NOT GET ANY ALGAE.

 

[H20Cool]

Guys, your normal run of the mill algae that you find contaminating your water sources undergo photosynthesis.

They need light. We all know there are aberrations in nature, but those are far and few in between, as well as being rare. It would be totally ridiculous of you to suggest that it's going to happen to enough people running watercooling setups to make a difference.

If we wanted to play theory wars, we could do this ad infinitum. Realistically speaking, if you have a closed case w/ no light YOU WILL NOT GET ANY ALGAE.

Thank you.

 

[SWScorch]

HardWarrior, Greenman, stop being assholes and hijacking this dude's thread. Kiss and make up now; no one wants to see your sophomoric arguments. Thank you

 

[DanDaMan315]

So basically getting danger den parts is not necessary? When I get water cooling I think I want to get one...maybe two pelts. Seems like the cooling is extraordinarily better with pelts, and I'm willing to put the time in to insulate and stuff.

Waiting for the, OMG no, pelts are way too much hassle.

The reason I brought up the fish pump possibility was because it seemed to me a much cheaper aquarium pump would be much more powerful, and therefor the cooling potential would be much better.

Stop bring up the "idea" of cooling with air, I am not running a stock cooling. I have 3400 Claw, they run really hot, and they like to suck down massive voltages. Although I hear there is no OC wall with the Clawhammer core, you just need lots of volts and a cooling system capable of keeping the temps down. I also heard someone got a 3400 C0 (the proc i have) up to 3.0ghz prime stable with peltier cooling.

The only issue I have with Peltiers is that they trick you with there pricing. You see them and your like, OMG $35 for a 220w pelt! my computer is going to be so cold!!! But then you need a beastly 12v power supply for each pelt, the insulation, and then the time that it take to get things running. Reallly the only bad thing IMO about pelts is the massive amount of power they consume, resulting in big buck$ spent on PSU's.

Seems like Zebo is the only level headed person here, everyone else seems to just be flame/ranting like mad men. So I'm really only looking for a response from Zebo since he seems to be the only person looking at this thread that knows anything.

 

[0roo0roo]

yea pelts suck down massive power and are totally inefficient.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: HardWarrior
If you had an active culture of animal algae, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. There are MANY types of algae. Some strains even exist in a grey zone between between plant and animal life. It's not as simply as "Light=Algae_No light=No Algae." Remember, google in indeed you friend.

I did my masters thesis work on growing bacteria and algae for wastewater treatment, so I am somewhat familiar. Suffice it to say that generally, bacteria smell and algae don't. I spent enough time knee-deep to at least make that distinction. It does make sense to me that the sterility of the loop is always a concern - thanks for the explanation.