Can you Build Mac??

CuriousAndy

Banned
May 28, 2001
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I've always wondered that Q.. Can you build it like PC enthusiats??

something tell me you can't.. is it the parts restricted? too costly?? what's the deal

~andy
 

Wallydraigle

Banned
Nov 27, 2000
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OMG, why would you want to? I think about everything is integrated and you can't even upgrade most of them. I'm pretty sure building one from scratch is out of the question.
 
Apr 5, 2000
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If memory serves me correctly - no. Thats why there are no Apple clones anymore like there was in the mid-90's - Apple basically disallowed people to use their architecture (or whatever the term is) to profit off of. (Even though they were paying Apple)
 

spanky

Lifer
Jun 19, 2001
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<< No you can't but it isn't true to say that you can't upgrade them. >>



i'll try to reply after i sort out all the double negatives from this statement...
 

yoda291

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
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I guess if you really wanted to, you could build a mac from the working parts of it's fallen bretheren, but you'd prolly pay an arm and a leg. To get the record straight, you can upgrade a mac and everything is NOT integrated. You know all those benchmarks that show a Mac BLOWING away a PC? Look at the benchmark they are running...Photoshop. They compare a stock p4 1.7 w/ a dual 800 g4 mac on photoshop!!! Come on...we all know the stock p4 is gonna have intel integrated gfx or some integrated chipset without an agp slot. The g4, on the other hand used to come standard with a 32MB Radeon card in the agp slot standard. They recently switched over to geforce2mx400 twins tho, which is still not a fair matchup in pshop. Gimme a gf3 or radeon 64 and I'll show you my photoshop benches.
 

notfred

Lifer
Feb 12, 2001
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<< I guess if you really wanted to, you could build a mac from the working parts of it's fallen bretheren, but you'd prolly pay an arm and a leg. To get the record straight, you can upgrade a mac and everything is NOT integrated. You know all those benchmarks that show a Mac BLOWING away a PC? Look at the benchmark they are running...Photoshop. They compare a stock p4 1.7 w/ a dual 800 g4 mac on photoshop!!! Come on...we all know the stock p4 is gonna have intel integrated gfx or some integrated chipset without an agp slot. The g4, on the other hand used to come standard with a 32MB Radeon card in the agp slot standard. They recently switched over to geforce2mx400 twins tho, which is still not a fair matchup in pshop. Gimme a gf3 or radeon 64 and I'll show you my photoshop benches. >>



you have no idea what you're talking about. Photoshop doesn't do 3d graphics at all. Photoshop is 100% dependent on CPU and memory, graphics card has nothing to do with it.


Also, yes you COULD build a Mac from scratch, but they only sell the cases/motherboards as complete systems, so there's really no need to. Other than that, they go together exactly like a PC, sure, they've got integrated 10/100/1000 Ethernet, but the video card is AGP, the hard drives are IDE, and the processor plugs into a slot jsut like on PC's. The only big difference is the way they're sold.
 

yoda291

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
5,079
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<< Also, yes you COULD build a Mac from scratch, but they only sell the cases/motherboards as complete systems, so there's really no need to. Other than that, they go together exactly like a PC, sure, they've got integrated 10/100/1000 Ethernet, but the video card is AGP, the hard drives are IDE, and the processor plugs into a slot jsut like on PC's. The only big difference is the way they're sold. >>



First off, I'm not saying that the actual building of the mac is gonna be any different, I'm sayin he'd prolly have to scrounge up a good number, if not all, the parts from macs that were RMA's or chucked. It's like building a notebook comp, you could do it if you played on ebay a few weeks and picked up the parts, but it's unlikely asus is gonna come down the line with a series of laptop mobos for the end user.



<< you have no idea what you're talking about. Photoshop doesn't do 3d graphics at all. Photoshop is 100% dependent on CPU and memory, graphics card has nothing to do with it. >>



following the data path here, RAM to CPU cache, cache to core core runs/processes, paged out to cache and over to the vid card which puts the data on the screen. Take an integrated chipset and your OS concepts. If an errant thread like putting pages in/out of RAM/cache is being performed a semaphore or a lock is initiated in the system,halting the rendering process. Your data buffer is one and the same as the RAM, so page out to RAM, resume rendering, page from cache into core, now page your image data out of RAM back into the cache to the processor, and routed back to the card. Now if your card has it's own buffer, the data doesn't need to get spit out into the RAM again, it gets transferred out into the monitor, even better if the GPU has it's own instructions to carry our independent of the CPU.

You're right, the rendering of an image in photoshop is pretty much on the cpu and memory and cache and all the crap in between...but if the chips that carry that data between the 3 have to keep pagin in and out and waiting, you get slower times, get a fast GPU on there with the basic 2d instruction set, and you won't need to interrupt the chipset for a page into RAM. Macs advantage here is that they have two CPU cores to do the rendering, so that when they hit a broken thread, the rendering doesn't need to halt and the image data can be sent straight away to another core. if you eliminate most or all these halts tho and drop in a fast GPU on a fast bus, then Mac loses this most or all this advantage and it degrades to a contest between two 800mhz processors workin in tandem vs a 1700mhz processor running singly. Assuming clock for clock they are the same(I'm an AMD person, not too quick on the p4), the p4 has a faster clock.

Mind you, my knowledge of photoshop code is practically nil, but data paths, I know pretty well from my CS Org classes. I admit I could be wrong on the point and if I am, plz point it out to me, but this is my info, but I also realize that maybe Pshop handles its data paths differently. I know that the Mac does it slightly differently as I had read an article a few years back that said that porting Mac software to PCs would never yield the same results as the software is originally constructed assuming a fixed system core etc and is optimized for the Mac...and if memory serves, Photoshop is native Mac software.

Finally, this is not meant to be hostile and I hope it is not taken as such...this is my understanding and if it is flawed, I'll gladly acquiesce**SAT word!!**
 

RossMAN

Grand Nagus
Feb 24, 2000
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acquiesce

That's a tough word to spell, and so is conscience <--- that doesn't look right
 

xyyz

Diamond Member
Sep 3, 2000
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no... that punkass Steve Jobs put a halt to that... remember those Mac clones... well do you see them anymore?
 

notfred

Lifer
Feb 12, 2001
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I dont think you're quite right on your description of what photoshop is doing. Photoshop benchmarks are performed by doing things like rotating large pictures, applying filters to them, adjusting colors and rendering layer effects. When you do these things no new information is sent to the monitor until the calculations are all completed by the CPU. There is no special rendering being done, either 2D or 3D by the video card. It's dealing with the same amount of information whether you've got 1024x768 pixels at 24bit color of IE, or 1024x768 at 24bit color of a picture in photoshop. Any difference made by grabbing the finished product from main memory rather than the video cards memory should be negligible.
 

Justin218

Platinum Member
Jan 21, 2001
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You can, you'd just have to get your hands on a mac motherboard. You could then use a processor "upgrade" by newertech or xlr8, somebody like that. It's not easy finding a mac mobo. It's not cheap when you do find one. I saw a BnW G3 Mac mobo for like 250 on eBay or something like that. Macs use pretty much the same stuff as PCs after that, though you have to make sure your components have mac drivers.
 

yoda291

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
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wait a minute...that doesn't make any sense to me then(genuinely clueless now, not sarcasm)...are you sayin that Photoshop is purposely flooding the AGP/Graphics hub with data after it's all been processed. Where's the processed data get put then while the rest of the image is renderingin the CPU? Also IE displays jpegs mostly which have extreme compression applied to them, Photoshop, as I've been told, works with an editable "copy" of an image when rendering which isn't as compressed or isn't compressed at all. By this mark then, the gfx card bus is directly responsible for output as it has to process all that data as it comes in. As far as I know, 50-400MB files in photoshop aren't unheard of or even uncommon,especially in professional applications and I used to frequently work with 30 MB files (3x5 @ 720) and I would imagine an AGP bus would have a decided advantage over something like an intel GMCH if you're rendering and transmitting all that data at once. hmm...maybe I'll email adobe about it...this warrants extensive probing...too lazy tho.

Ross, conshens looks ok to me :)