Can you be a classical liberal and support binding/involuntary union?

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Anarchist420

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I don't see how so many self-identifying classical liberals could support the Constitution when it's not classical liberal, let alone libertarian.

The Articles of Confederation that was ratified was somewhere between classical liberalism and no govt. It was meant to be a utility to minimize pain and to maximize liberty and it guaranteed every individual equality before itself while the Constitution did no such thing. The 10th Amendment was the last amendment that was not against equality before the law because all the rest are pro-centralization of power, except the 21st (maybe, I haven't read it... I just know it ended prohibition but I don't know if it gave the States back their power that was taken by the 18th).

The DC representation amendment was a disaster... a central capitol never should've been created in the first place, but to give those people representation when they're the worst lobbyists in existence makes it even more insane. The Amendment prohibiting the poll tax is terrible because it gave people the mentality that voting was a right and because some people shouldn't be allowed to vote... their votes should be coupled with that of someone else. The 15th Amendment was bad because it centrally guaranteed more people the right to vote based upon collectivism and it was to punish the South more than to help the blacks... the North wanted nothing more than to shove their dick up the Southerners' anuses to show who was boss all while taking advantage of the blacks as an excuse. The 19th Amendment sucked because it pretty much gave people the mentality that voting was a universal right (it's not, it's a privilege) all while increasing centralization of power.

The 17th didn't really change that much because it only took a majority of the Senate. In other words, the minority States who didn't vote Hamiltonian Senators to Washington still had to be forced to unionize with even the slimmest of majorities.

Everyone knows my feelings on the 14th and also that the 13th was worthless because it didn't allow the blacks self determination... it would've done the blacks and the rest of society much better if the pro-slavery parts of Article 4 had been repealed and replaced with nothing rather than Congressional enforcement (John C Calhoun, the only Democrat to vote against the pro-Slavery MexAm War, favored total abolition of federal involvement with slavery). Jim Crow would never have happened if the 13th hadn't been ratified.

Last but not least, the 16th Amendment was promoted as the most redistributive which is a lie because the Constitution already allowed for the most potentially egalitarian tax in the world which was a property tax.
So starting with the 1st Article of the U.S. Constitution, all of our "rights" have been at the expense of someone else. It made us dependent on Congress and on everyone else for no good reason.
 

werepossum

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Jul 10, 2006
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A classical liberal believes in maximizing personal liberty, but also believes in civilization. In fact, one of government's major roles is in defending personal liberty, for without some level of government you have only the personal liberty you can personally defend. Civilization must be an encroachment on personal liberty, but it's also a powerful guarantor of personal liberty.

Within this framework, forming a stronger union does not necessarily encroach more on personal liberty than does a weak confederation. To the contrary, forming a stronger union sets a common floor on guaranteed personal liberty. Even though shamefully it took almost a century, the union forced an end to the abomination of slavery when the southern states, whether for true self interest of self interest of the powerful, would not have ended it any time soon. (One could reasonably argue that slavery, being an economic system that limits societal wealth even while concentrating it, inherently discourages the kind of industrialization that naturally ends slavery; in that case slavery, the ultimate crime against personal liberty, might have continued for another century.)

Further, our loss in personal liberty over two hundred years is due not merely to the union, but to the drastic increase in population density and our increased government benefits. It's all well and good to dump whatever you want in a stream when you're a subsistence farmer and your next neighbor is a mile away, but when you have access to sophisticated chemicals and that mile of stream is accessible to tens of thousands of humans, either we give up some personal liberty or we live in a polluted hell hole. And take a typical government program - student loans. We lose some personal liberty because government takes some of our income. But we also gain some opportunity, or at least those of us do who are not independently wealth enough to afford four years of non-productivity. Maximum personal liberty is to be alone in a wilderness, with no constraints on your freedom. But although you have total freedom, your only practical choices are to be a hunter-gatherer or a farmer.

So I'm saying it is not at all inconsistent for a classical liberal to support the union. It's merely a recognition that while personal liberty is very important, it's not the only thing that is important.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
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I don't see how so many self-identifying classical liberals .

Problem is you are not a "classical" liberal, you pick and choose a few Adam Smith quotes to espouse 1950s era neo-liberal extremism.

You call yourself a "capitalist" and "classical" hating socialism, and dont even realize Marx made the term up. Right wing "libertarians", just piss off back to the GOP and go fix it. Or go be bircher right wing class traitors and fascist sympathizers, like you actually are. There are enough of you morons to legalize weed if you went home to the GOP. So make yourself useful.
 
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bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
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Problem is you are not a "classical" liberal, you pick and choose a few Adam Smith quotes to espouse 1950s era neo-liberal extremism.

You call yourself a "capitalist" and "classical" hating socialism, and dont even realize Marx made the term up. Right wing "libertarians", just piss off back to the GOP and go fix it. Or go be bircher right wing class traitors and fascist sympathizers, like you actually are. There are enough of you morons to legalize weed if you went home to the GOP. So make yourself useful.

Lets not forget that "classical liberal" covers so many wide ranging ideas it's really nonsensical to call yourself one lol.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
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Lets not forget that "classical liberal" covers so many wide ranging ideas it's really nonsensical to call yourself one lol.

Actually, this is my favorite part of politics, there are many reasons for the confusion in the 20th century of what is "liberal" in the classical sense and contemporary.


"Classical Liberals" were literally deported and demonized all during the 20th century in the USA, by both the Capitalist countries and the Bolsheviks. (USSR)


When you get into this we are literally missing a huge portion of our history, totally wiped out. Millions of voices of the past century silenced by political violence and much intrigue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-TeGrv32Ig

^one of the most interesting and controversial movies I have seen about the USA and our confused and powerless actual left that no one understand really.

The whispers of ghosts of the once openly proud and unstoppable left wing of the USA that literally pushed change to make this the best place for workers in the world. Without going all nuts like the Russians.

There is literally a whole other world there of the left, the Democratic party is not even recognizable as a left wing institution with none of the core values anymore except a few populist "we are in this together" rhetoric that always falls short on results for workers.

Anyhow, watch it or not. I learned a lot and I already studied the subject.
 
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Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Steeple, I'll check that out later thanks for the link.

Dont mention it, everytime I spread the good propaganda I get rewards miles on the soviet battlecruiser space fleet.

It's not cheap nowadays to turn the galaxy red. Damn Obama economy and his prices nowadays of super secret tesla fuel.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
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Dont mention it, everytime I spread the good propaganda I get rewards miles on the soviet battlecruiser space fleet.

It's not cheap nowadays to turn the galaxy red. Damn Obama economy and his prices nowadays of super secret tesla fuel.

I just aggregate information into my brain so the more the merrier. I believe truth is revealed not through my search for it, but as a consequence of my thirst for more information.
 

Anarchist420

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2010
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Problem is you are not a "classical" liberal, you pick and choose a few Adam Smith quotes to espouse 1950s era neo-liberal extremism. You call yourself a "capitalist" and "classical" hating socialism, and dont even realize Marx made the term up. Right wing "libertarians", just piss off back to the GOP and go fix it. Or go be bircher right wing class traitors and fascist sympathizers, like you actually are. There are enough of you morons to legalize weed if you went home to the GOP. So make yourself useful.
Dumbfuck, too bad I realize electoral politics doesn't change anything and that Romney will be the first American Emperor... you probably are one of the idiots who thinks you have a right to rule others and that your vote actually counts.
Lets not forget that "classical liberal" covers so many wide ranging ideas it's really nonsensical to call yourself one lol. __________________
lol you're really not right. The Articles of Confederation inherently preserved equality before the law, the Constitution installed a ruling class.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
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Dumbfuck.

Oh yeah?

Well..


3puht0.jpg


So nyah! Go smoke weed and thank the workers who support your entitled ass you trust fund mooch.

And while your at it, take that federalist garbage with you. You are just a wanna-be oligarch/aristocrat, -like King George.

General Washington would string your ass up in the nearest tree for musket practice (or wedgies depending on his mood) while me and ol Ben Franklin smoked all your weed with Jefferson.
 
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momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
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Really good OP. You nailed every point.

Steeple is just trolling because he can't come up with a valid counter-argument.
 

Anarchist420

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Really good OP. You nailed every point. Steeple is just trolling because he can't come up with a valid counter-argument.
Yes he is; you nailed every point so Thank you for being there for me. I want you to be there for me forever:) He should read the ever infallible Dr. Thomas J. DiLorenzo's works and then he'll see exactly how egalitarian Jefferson was. He should also realize that Jefferson repealed the silver standard act because it was a govt standard and it was to crash FBUS and that Jefferson was more of a proto-Austrian rather than more of an egalitarian.

I mean, when he wrote the Declaration of Independence he didn't even intend for any union at all... it was purely a secessionist document; he intended for the Original 13 Colonies to be free and independent of each other. Washington was installed by that idiot Adams and Washington was the tool of the artificial elite who never wanted to give up their power (I do want to give up my power and I've not aggressed against anyone with it because I just realized I was "protected" because I'm not that bright) While none of that was Washington's fault, he still failed to make good (overall) for the people... the artificial 1% (like Romney and his fellow power lusters as well as statists the world over) will always know not to come looking for me when they want centralization of power. They know their plans will be compromised if they ever ask me to carry out their plans.

Washington trusted the wrong people but I've trusted the right people for most of my life. They may ditch me at times and I may drive them crazy, but I know who I want to be and who to listen to.
So nyah! Go smoke weed and thank the workers who support your entitled ass you trust fund mooch. And while your at it, take that federalist garbage with you. You are just a wanna-be oligarch/aristocrat, -like King George. General Washington would string your ass up in the nearest tree for musket practice (or wedgies depending on his mood) while me and ol Ben Franklin smoked all your weed with Jefferson.
See the above smart guy. I have reasons for mooching, including but not limited to the fact that I can't do good production now and the market can thrive from my waste anyway. That said, I'm not a pure supply sider... I'm an Austrian unlike your dumbass:) I realize I've wasted private sector resources, but I didn't do it by centralizing arms unlike the state. The leviathan state never did any good for me, the best they could've done was break my leg then given me a cast. Statism is the ultimate revolt against nature and is the most lawless thing known to man because the body of the people can only be an artificial concept.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Yes he is; you nailed every point so Thank you for being there for me. I want you to be there for me forever:) He should read the ever infallible Dr. Thomas J. DiLorenzo's works and then he'll see exactly how egalitarian Jefferson was. He should also realize that Jefferson repealed the silver standard act because it was a govt standard and it was to crash FBUS and that Jefferson was more of a proto-Austrian rather than more of an egalitarian.

I mean, when he wrote the Declaration of Independence he didn't even intend for any union at all... it was purely a secessionist document; he intended for the Original 13 Colonies to be free and independent of each other. Washington was installed by that idiot Adams and Washington was the tool of the artificial elite who never wanted to give up their power (I do want to give up my power and I've not aggressed against anyone with it because I just realized I was "protected" because I'm not that bright) While none of that was Washington's fault, he still failed to make good (overall) for the people... the artificial 1% (like Romney and his fellow power lusters as well as statists the world over) will always know not to come looking for me when they want centralization of power. They know their plans will be compromised if they ever ask me to carry out their plans.

Washington trusted the wrong people but I've trusted the right people for most of my life. They may ditch me at times and I may drive them crazy, but I know who I want to be and who to listen to.See the above smart guy. I have reasons for mooching, including but not limited to the fact that I can't do good production now and the market can thrive from my waste anyway. That said, I'm not a pure supply sider... I'm an Austrian unlike your dumbass:) I realize I've wasted private sector resources, but I didn't do it by centralizing arms unlike the state. The leviathan state never did any good for me, the best they could've done was break my leg then given me a cast. Statism is the ultimate revolt against nature and is the most lawless thing known to man because the body of the people can only be an artificial concept.

Well, I guess theres one good thing about a sock puppet, when you are done wanking you can just throw it into the wash.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
Sorry Anarchist I still think it's asinine to call yourself a classical liberal. You could be a student of classical libralism, but it covers a wide variety of political thought.
 

Anarchist420

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2010
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Sorry Anarchist I still think it's asinine to call yourself a classical liberal. You could be a student of classical libralism, but it covers a wide variety of political thought. __________________
It does cover a wide variety, but it synthesizes. The Anti-Federalists were Classical Liberals and I support the Articles of Confederation. For the record, I think classical liberalism does allow for too much statism (Mr. Classical Liberal Stateman of the Old Republic believed in public education and was also somewhat of left libertarian since he supported public roads and more egalitarian taxation than anyone in federal office today; I think Mises believed in IP, but he was more culturally conservative). Perhaps I'm too anti-state to fit the Classical Liberal label exactly, but the Articles of Confederation may as well have been anarcho-capitalism and I'd be perfectly satisfied with it. Yes, yes, I know the US gov is going to collapse before that could happen, but I was just saying out loud:)
 
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