Can we put a man on the moon?

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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No, I don't mean the fact we already have.

Imagine we hadn't. And then imagine President Obama gave John Kennedy's speech announcing his desire to do so for hundreds of billions. Could we do it today?

Think about how the politics have changed. Then, we had a 'cold war' where we were afraid of the Soviets surpassing us in technology and space travel. Then, we had a super-majority of Democrats, and a far more 'liberal' Republican party by today's standards, in Congress and a more 'activist' Democratic President.

The arguments existed then about 'small government' and 'don't waste so many billions of dollars to put a man in space when our people here at home need food and roads.'

A difference is, then they lost. A president could 'lead' on an issue like that. The space program was a massive project - up to 5% of the federal budget (at a time of the Great Society and Vietnam, yet we avoided a large deficit, but that's another subject). Those were the disgruntled minority voices on the right and left, respectively.

Today, it seems unthinkable. The obstructionism, the rise of anti-government ideology, the dominance in our politics of the agenda of narrow interests and lobbyists objecting to any diversion of funds to the 'national interest' over their own interests, all seem like factors that suggest there would be few if any votes for such a project today.

Is that a good or bad thing? If bad, what do we do about it?

(I'm not looking for a discussion of public versus private space efforts, the current private ones greatly benefitting from the work of NASA previously).

Obama gave a speech about how he wants the country to do 'big things'. Both President Bushes tried to ride the wave of excitement of the idea of sending a man to Mars.

Doesn't this example suggest a worse situation about our country being able to 'do big things' as a country/democracy/people/public effort, as opposed to what companies do?

The only area we seem to maintain the ability to do big things is the military, where the scope and technology are leading the world.
 

alcoholbob

Diamond Member
May 24, 2005
6,387
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It would be a lot more expensive than in the 60s and 70s because we've lost alot of our industrial capacity since then. And our financial situation is far worse. NASA estimated a few years ago it would take at least 13 years to build a program capable of reaching the moon again. And NASA is pretty good at underestimating how long it takes to accomplish these projects.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
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The problem is we have been to space and there is just not much there. Other then a bunch of high concept science that hardly anyone actually understands, there is nothing worth the cost of doing it. I'm a huge supporter of the space program and even I have to wonder if it is worth going to the moon again.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
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It would be a lot more expensive than in the 60s and 70s because we've lost alot of our industrial capacity since then. And our financial situation is far worse. NASA estimated a few years ago it would take at least 13 years to build a program capable of reaching the moon again. And NASA is pretty good at underestimating how long it takes to accomplish these projects.


We could just pay a Chinese company to do it for us. Probably the most realistic scenario for going to the Moon or Mars.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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It would be a lot more expensive than in the 60s and 70s because we've lost alot of our industrial capacity since then. And our financial situation is far worse. NASA estimated a few years ago it would take at least 13 years to build a program capable of reaching the moon again. And NASA is pretty good at underestimating how long it takes to accomplish these projects.

I think that badly misses the point of the societal changes I'm discussing. The issue of the erosion of our industrial base is not nearly as major a factor - the moon project was not primarily an industrial project, but an engineering and scientific one. I haven't seen that NASA estimate, but I suspect it was based on factors such as the reduced support of space programs, not assuming the same sort of massive government focus and effort that was done in the 1960's. We had to invent nearly everything new back then. I don't buy the claim.

But for the sake of argument, assume a similar effort, for a similar time and share of our budget, would work. Could we do it today?
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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The problem is we have been to space and there is just not much there. Other then a bunch of high concept science that hardly anyone actually understands, there is nothing worth the cost of doing it. I'm a huge supporter of the space program and even I have to wonder if it is worth going to the moon again.

To repeat, I said to imagine we had not gone, and it was now suggested we go for the first time. There was nothing in space then more than there is now.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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We could just pay a Chinese company to do it for us. Probably the most realistic scenario for going to the Moon or Mars.

And again, that's ignoring the topic, by introducing other elements. Assume China could not, would not, or disappeared like Atlantis. This isn't a practical question about our options today, it's a question whether given the similar choice for the US to do this or not, whether the ability of the country to politically support a program like this exists as it did then.
 

alcoholbob

Diamond Member
May 24, 2005
6,387
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My answer is relevant because all of these factors lead to no political will to fund an expensive science project thats even more out of reach today than back in the 60s. Also the issue of industrial capacity is very important because alot of the construction for the giant rockets would have to be done by hand rather than having a wide list of contractors with the tools capable of building the components, so costs would skyrocket even if we tried to replicate the Saturn V.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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You've framed this incorrectly. Republicans would not support taxes for this purpose. Democrats would spend it on social programs. "Liberals" would kill is as fast as you please as "Conservatives". The Liberals and Conservatives of that era are dead. Lesser sons of lesser sires now.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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My answer is relevant because all of these factors lead to no political will to fund an expensive science project thats even more out of reach today than back in the 60s. Also the issue of industrial capacity is very important because alot of the construction for the giant rockets would have to be done by hand rather than having a wide list of contractors with the tools capable of building the components, so costs would skyrocket even if we tried to replicate the Saturn V.

I'll try once more, for the purpose of discussion, assume those factors are similar - if you need to, assume we buy the parts from Chines companies now.

The point is not to compare the industrial capacity then and now, or how that change in capacity might affect public opinion.

It's to compare, if faced with a SIMILAR choice today, could we do it?
 

alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,860
2
0
You've framed this incorrectly. Republicans would not support taxes for this purpose. Democrats would spend it on social programs. "Liberals" would kill is as fast as you please as "Conservatives". The Liberals and Conservatives of that era are dead. Lesser sons of lesser sires now.

If a "Sputnik-like" event or set of circumstances were to occur I think we could and would do it; depending on the potential gains necessary funds could be gleaned from other sources.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
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We're thinking of sending another satellite to orbit Mars as a relay for future Mars missions, in addition to the makeshift one in orbit.

We still have robots roomba'ing Mars more or less.

Of course we could, but why ?

I take it by we you mean the US.

Buying parts from Chinese companies would not be necessary.

They are still trying to catch up in that respect.
 
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SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
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This isn't a practical question about our options today, it's a question whether given the similar choice for the US to do this or not, whether the ability of the country to politically support a program like this exists as it did then.

Then if the oracle told us the omens were right we might try climbing the rainbow to the moon at night.

With out all the things that brought us to the point we are today we would be in a different place. Are you simply asking if we can still do large multi-billion dollar projects? Then yes we obviously can, we do them every few years in fact, the F-35 proves that. The only real question is what sort of projects we find worth doing.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Then if the oracle told us the omens were right we might try climbing the rainbow to the moon at night.

With out all the things that brought us to the point we are today we would be in a different place. Are you simply asking if we can still do large multi-billion dollar projects? Then yes we obviously can, we do them every few years in fact, the F-35 proves that. The only real question is what sort of projects we find worth doing.

Some of your post doesn't make sense to me, but to clarify, I'm comparing a big thing with a broader 'purpose' - the ability of society to act to use its resources for a democratic priority for something much anymore, as contrasted with the singular exception I mentioned of military spending, with all its influence as an industry. We had big defense spending under Kennedy, too, and that's not the test I'm talking about.

We could pick another example - some sort of even larger super-collider that would offer great breakthroughs, for example (which largely has an answer as we failed to fund our own super-colliders while the leadership was taken by Europe) - but why complicate the question unnecessarily? And of course we do have SOME ability to keep doing some things - see the Hubble (though I wonder if that could get funded under Obama as a new project, either).

So, I used the hypothetical idea of the moon landing. Now, admittedly, that was not simply a 'we decided to advance the greatness of man's achievments and science' project, the race with the Soviets, as I mentioned, was a critical political factor - though that alone also says something unfortunate, that we probably couldn't have done it without that conflict just for the 'better reasons'.

And I guess in that sense it does make it a bit harder to compare to today without the cold war, and that's a fair point.

But those 'better reasons' were still an important factor as well, the achievement did capture the public opinion, and the public did overall support it in part for those reasons.

Today, we can't even get a transportation maintenance bill passed. Everything that's not locked in and needs a new vote is in great jeopardy. The only bill with a chance this year for new spending much seems to be one to relieve the backlog at the VA, and even that has taken a long time and is in question.

The issue I'm raising is, if Obama announced a 'big new project' with similar appeal as the moon landing that would take that sort of investment - which as I said was as high as 5% of the federal budget - can we politically still unite as a country to support it, or has the anti-government ideology of groups like the tea party, the agenda of government being so determined by the big money donations and the lobbyists who come to hire over half of Congress later, broken our political system to where we just can't get that passed?

The point is to illustrate how some of those changes have been important and the way they block our country from being able to things, and the moon landing is a good example of the sort of expensive project that we generally are happy was done and would like to think our country can do. But we probably can't, until the problems are improved.

It's not so much an issue to debate whether there is a specific project we should do like that, as to note how hard it would be to do.

To imagine how today, Obama giving the same type of speech, would have the opposition not be a minority, but dominate the policy.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
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There are no big new projects. There is no innovative thought process. This Administration castrated one which could have provided affordable medications to the poorest nations. It's all about preserving the status quo for election purposes.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
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They are more interested in getting someone to Mars as that will be more 'habitable' than the thin atmosphere moon.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
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It's not so much an issue to debate whether there is a specific project we should do like that, as to note how hard it would be to do.

To imagine how today, Obama giving the same type of speech, would have the opposition not be a minority, but dominate the policy.

I think it would require us to find a project that captures the nations imagination like going to the moon did. If for example the President came on the TV tomorrow and told America that we have the ability to build a FTL drive that would let us explore the galaxy, but it would cost half a trillion dollars over the next 5 years, but then we would start to explore other solar systems, then yes I think the nation would rally behind that.

The real problem is that building roads and ridges is just not sexy, and today people are all about sexy.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
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They are more interested in getting someone to Mars as that will be more 'habitable' than the thin atmosphere moon.

Mars is pretty much completely uninhabitable since it doesn't have much of a magnetic field.


Can we put a man on the moon, sure. Why?

NASA blew their load on a fucking POS space plane that didn't do anything but fuck around in LEO for 30 years. Coulda done a lot more with that piece of pork.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
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Mars is pretty much completely uninhabitable since it doesn't have much of a magnetic field.


Can we put a man on the moon, sure. Why?

NASA blew their load on a fucking POS space plane that didn't do anything but fuck around in LEO for 30 years. Coulda done a lot more with that piece of pork.

We can build habitats on Mars that won't have the risk of meteorite bombardment.

Space planes are for the uber wealthy to hang out in space while whatever happens on Earth happens. That's the real purpose now for them. Eventually they will offer faster flights.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,018
37
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We don't even have the national will to enforce our own borders and immigration law, despite spending hundreds of billions on a military every year. Lets get behind making sure we keep a prized thing viable long term before blowing shit tons on manned space travel again.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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I think it would require us to find a project that captures the nations imagination like going to the moon did. If for example the President came on the TV tomorrow and told America that we have the ability to build a FTL drive that would let us explore the galaxy, but it would cost half a trillion dollars over the next 5 years, but then we would start to explore other solar systems, then yes I think the nation would rally behind that.

The real problem is that building roads and ridges is just not sexy, and today people are all about sexy.

I think you are actually proving a different point unintentionally. What you're saying 'sounds good' - blame it on the nation's imagination - but doesn't hold up.

Why not? Because we were far more able to invest in things like roads in the past, even though it's not as if there was a national craze where they capture the nation's imagination.

Having nice roads was popular then and now - the difference lies elsewhere.

Where? Well, look at the rise of anti-government zealotry, the election of zealots who represent that view, the increase in the special interests and money in politics, the decline in things like newspapers providing a 'moderating voice' in politics as an independent editorial influence, a variety of things.

Though I don't think your point is wrong about the fact that that level of enthusiasm has changed somewhat from the idea really 'capturing the imagination of the American people' more then than it seems like it would now and I'm having to say imagine if we hadn't done it, wouldn't it have a similar effect today. But there were a variety of factors. I think a lot of people then just found it hard to believe we could do it.

One other change in society between then and now this leasds me to that I've commented on before is the pace of change society expects. In the 1960's, we'd seen incredible advancements fast. Not only the development of the atomic split for bombs and peace, but the development in the last few decades of motion pictures with voice, home movie cameras, television mostly in the last decade, jet travel, computers, just an amazing pace.

One benchmark I use for the psychology of how people felt things were going is looking at how fiction predicted advancement then. Remember space travel in Star Trek - wasn't it set for the 1990's? There was Space: 1999 with its entire moon colony in place by that year. Many predictions had the public thinking that rate of advancement would in e a few decades lead to just fantastic new technologies as seen in many movies and books.

Then the nation changed course, and things slowed down, and advancement was from album to CD, from VCR to DVD, with the biggest advancement being the internet (thanks Al Gore, no you can't be President. We're ungrateful). Our visions of things to come has greatly slowed as far as technology, and the whole post-apolalyptic fure has become the most popular, replacing the utopias of the past. And really, 'the future' just seems less of interest as a setting anymore, with not as much excitement about it.

Remember the craze in the 1970's about 'time capsules' to put junk in boxes to be dug up in 50 years by some future society who would barely understand the primitives back then and laugh at the old state of affairs? Well, now we just note that good music stopped being made for the most part back then. And no one seems to care about an idea like a time capsule.

That whole change in the sense of 'progress' plays a big part in these things. It's self-fulfilling. If you think democracy can't do anything, you elect people who prove you right.

Speaking of investing in roads. It was in the Great Depression, when people would be at the peak of the 'we can't afford to spend a cent on luxurious crap, we need food for people' mentality that we hit a peak of productivity in the country that paved the way for future prosperity. I'm amazed looking at how many of our 'big projects' were done during that worst economic period from the Golden Gate Bridge (1933) to the Hoover Dam (1931) to the Tennessee Valley Authority (1933) to building sidewalks for cities around the country.

Projects we 'couldn't afford' later in much more prosperous times. Which has a lot to do with the political culture of being able to get big things done as a society, that democratic sense of the people deciding what to do with society's resources, not simply thinking nearly all the resources belong to the rich, and just use the resources to get more for themselves.

(There used to be a pretty strong sense that going too far in that extreme to just use resources to get richer without any concern for the public interest was unpatriotic, un-American, a danger to society, something shameful. That there was more a balance of priorities. Something not totally lost on people like Bill Gates who use wealth for charitable purposes.)

And there is a pretty direct comparison there - President Obama did propose a middle-sized public works project as part of economic recover, and a modest size 'stimulus' package did pass - and the economists I see comment I think are right say it did work well but needed to be much larger (hello Paul Krugman) while there was a major political movement wanting to claim the whole idea of that approach doesn't work for ideological reasons.

If I had my way, I think I'd increase spending by the government on raw scientific research 100 times - which would be easily paid for when you look at the amount - and that we'd greatly benefit economically and qualitatively. It's an area where we're penny wise and pound foolish compared to the return - and in the process of a transition to other countries (hello, India).

I'll leave it at that for a return to the thread topic of how much we're able politically to get behind a 'big project' for the 'national good' other than the 'defense industry' which many would argue is often harmful to the 'national good', bloated, corrupt, just another 'special interest' able to manipulate Congress for its own benefit by placing jobs for weapons in all 50 states.

The worst to be feared and the best to be expected can be simply stated.

The worst is atomic war.

The best would be this: a life of perpetual fear and tension; a burden of arms draining the wealth and the labor of all peoples; a wasting of strength that defies the American system or the Soviet system or any system to achieve true abundance and happiness for the peoples of this earth.

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.

This world in arms is not spending money alone.

It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children.

The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than 30 cities.

It is two electric power plants, each serving a town of 60,000 population. It is two fine, fully equipped hospitals.

It is some fifty miles of concrete pavement.

We pay for a single fighter plane with a half million bushels of wheat.

We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than 8,000 people.

This is, I repeat, the best way of life to be found on the road the world has been taking.

This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense... it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron.

- President Eisenhower
 
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sleepeeg3

Senior member
May 25, 2004
953
6
81
The politics have changed and the administration in charge lacks the conviction or honesty to engender the support for a project of the magnitude required. Obama has lied about too many things (1 no 2 no 3 no 4 million jobs created and/or saved, "keep your doctor," Obamacare will lower insurance premiums), broken too many laws (executive amnesty, born in the USA?) and shackled the nation with too much debt (more than doubled the national debt since he took office) for us to consider spending on feel good missions.

The big question is - why? Back then there was a reason. Today, there would be none.

People are against the government, because some of them are finally realizing what a burden it is too society. Some of the services the national government provides are useful (self defense and...?). However, the omnipresent taxes it lays on us are felt everywhere. Wasting money on rockets to the moon would only make things worse.
 

disappoint

Lifer
Dec 7, 2009
10,132
382
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This is a different time, with different problems.

If the govt. were to take on a huge project now it really shouldn't be going to the moon even if we hadn't already.

They should take on a project which would benefit humanity much, much more. In fact they would have been better off doing this back then as well, as by now they would have reaped greater rewards than going to the moon.

They should conquer, clean up and control the one part of space that is the most screwed up and threatens this nation's and even all of humanity's future the most.

The human mind.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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The politics have changed and the administration in charge lacks the conviction or honesty to engender the support for a project of the magnitude required. Obama has lied about too many things (1 no 2 no 3 no 4 million jobs created and/or saved, "keep your doctor," Obamacare will lower insurance premiums), broken too many laws (executive amnesty, born in the USA?) and shackled the nation with too much debt (more than doubled the national debt since he took office) for us to consider spending on feel good missions.

The big question is - why? Back then there was a reason. Today, there would be none.

People are against the government, because some of them are finally realizing what a burden it is too society. Some of the services the national government provides are useful (self defense and...?). However, the omnipresent taxes it lays on us are felt everywhere. Wasting money on rockets to the moon would only make things worse.

I find your comments very interesting, as they capture well the 'new thinking' that has come up that I was talking about and exhibit many of the flaws I discussed.

We agree 'the politics have changed' but I think we mean very different things by that, I suspect you mean something along the lines of 'now, we have a lying tyrant in office'.

I'd suggest what's really changed is the mentality of a lot of citizens - for the worse I'd say.

I can point you to all kinds of 'lies' far worse by Kennedy, but which were reacted to differently by most of the nation. One of Kennedy's main campaign points was to run on the claim that there was a 'missile gap' where the Soviets had many more missiles than we did, while the truth was they had something like four to our several hundred. Kennedy initially denied a US role in the Bay of Pigs invasion, quickly exposed as a lie. Kennedy lied to his own supporters that he'd never pick LBJ for the ticket - then did it because it'd help win.

Nevermind the sex or hiding of his severe medical problems.

But none of these turned into an 'oppose all of Kennedy's legislative agenda because he's a lying tyrant' obsession by a large part of the public.

Kennedy could never have governed today nearly as successfully as he did then, because of the massive obstructionism and furious partisan movement he'd face.

Let's look at the 'lies' you cite by Obama as the ground for such passionate opposition.

The number of jobs created - while there are revisions as better data is collected over time, I haven't seen any major issue there, or contradiction to the basic truth on the issue.

(By Obama, that is. On the other hand, Republicans widely lied in the 2012 campaign with false accusations that a positive jobs report was falsified. Are you outraged by that?

Heck, I was just reminded on the Rachel Maddow show about *blatant* lies by the Romney campaign such as the claim Jeep was moving all manufacturing to China. Are you outraged?)

"keep your doctor". This was a basically true statement, with a common sense qualifier left off that should have been included, but no major lie. It was reassuring people who suspected Obamacare was some sort of total government takeover of healthcare that would take away everyone's doctor that that was not the case, that in the normal situations nothing of the sort would happen, most people would keep the same insurance they had, and the same doctor, and the main change was that tens of millions who did not have healthcare would obtain it. What was not said was that if your insurance company cancelled your plan for whatever reason - something that happens regardless of Obamacare - or if you fell into a tiny group who had poor insurance plans that did not meet the new standard of Obamacare to require plans to offer decent benefits - you could lose your doctor. Under 2% of people fell into that group of affected people with plans that had to be improved. So yes, it was a mistake, and one that helped smooth the debate for the passage of Obamacare, but nothing like the massive dishonesty, major issue, scandal you try to portray it as. You are being hysterical to the point of dishonestly representing it as some major issue with Obama.

The final one, Obamacare will lower premiums, well overall it did. Healthcare costs are increasing at the lower rate in 60 years. It has all kinds of provisions that reduce the costs of healthcare and improve the value received by patients. Billions have had to be paid by insurance companies to patients because Obama requires it when the plans spend too little of premiums on actual care for patients.

But that doesn't stop peope from claiming that even the lower increases still remaining are somehow a 'lie by Obama' about lowering costs, or again that the tiny number who were on bad plans who had to get better plans that cost more, the fewer than 2% in that situation, somehow make this a major lie by Obama. Wrong.

So you have nothing but hysteria to back up the 'Obama is a monster' claim on lies.

Then there's the abuse of power allegation. Isn't it funny that I have never seen one single claim about that make any mention at all of the worst obstruction in history he faces?

What he's done has been legal - and taking the modest measures he can for his agenda (oh my gosh, the agenda to destroy America - no, the immigration reform Congress won't pass) allowed under the law generally. What do you REALLY object to in terms of common sense, of fairness, of morality to his action on the 'dream children' other than you hate him so much and he did it? It's as if he pulls a child out of being hit by a car and you say he's a monster for interfering, without any sense of the actual right and wrong of the action.

This is nothing different that president have always done - for example, when Truman wanted to appoint the first black man as a federal judge, and the tea... er, the southern racists in Congress prevented him, he used the recess appointment to get it done - something we now look back on with pride and approval for his 'abusing power' that way.

Obama has issued fewer executive orders than recent president, despite, as I said, the unprecedented obstructionism - but I have to admit, it's a *black guy* doing it.

I'm not accusing there, but one struggles to understand the irrational rage otherwise.

Then you actually - as your second of two arguments for his abusing power - use the claim that he wasn't born in the US as his violating the law.

You don't understand how that says everything about you - the delusion, the irrational rage, the incorrectness of your views factually - and not something bad about Obama.

Finally, you drag our the debt issue.

Now, let's deal with the truth here a minute.

For the history or our country, we never had a massive peacetime debt, until Reagan, who discovered the magic of the political formula of getting voter approval by TALKING against debt, while also getting the political benefit of buying a healthier economy and supporting donor industries by paying for it with MASSIVE BORROWED MONEY. It was the hero of Republicans who talked most against debt and increased it the most until then.

Bush 41 is unremarkable on the issue other than that he mostly continued the huge deficits, slightly reduced as I recall, but made the mistake of trying to sound like Reagan with 'read his lips' while getting caught being a bit responsible by actually supporting a modest tax increase to not increase the debt quite so much (as had Reagan, but without the public outrage).

Then we got a Democrat, what did he do? Those big spending Democrats, he must have really increased the deficit over that hero Reagan right? No, he proposed a deficit-reducing budget. *EVERY* Republican opposed it and said it would destroy our economy, and not one Republican voted for the budget, but it passed by a single vote, and the opposite of what they sould happen, happened - the economy improved AND the deficit went down.

So historical revisionist Republicans like to say, well all the credit goes to the Republican Congress for that, right? No. Clinton took office with a fully Democratic Congress who passed that budget, and it decreased the deficit by similar amount every year as the rest of his presidency when they was a Republican House.

And if that Republican congress deserves so much credit, isn't it funny it's the same Republican Congress that stayed in power when Bush 43 became president and the deficit immediately skyrocketed back up again? So, the facts totally contradict your delusional idea of who does what on the deficit, because you fall for lies - just SAY you are anti-debt, and you are fooled, even if you actually greatly grow it.

Now let's get to Obama. He became president at a time of a huge economic crash, when good economists say that the government's spending SHOULD use debt to keep the economy functioning - he'd be well justified in increasing the deficit for that purpose. And yet - largely because of that obstructionism - what's actually happened is that the deficit is less than half what it was when he took office. He's cut it by more than half.

Now, you do a couple of dishonest things on the issue. One is the mixing up of debt and deficit. You could point out the debt increased a lot under Clinton even as he reduced the deficit every year - what's more informative about what he did? Of course the debt has continued to increase under Obama because we have a deficit, even as he's lowered that deficit from the $1.5 trillion it was when he took office - something you make zero mention of. The other is only pointing out the issue as an Obama issue without any mention of others.

So even your debt point has no merit at all to it. Not only is a lot of the deficit spending defensible for a lot of reasons, but you badly misrepresent Obama relative to others.

So what you do unintentionally is show the sort of difference I was talking about, where there is such a growth of irrational political views and anti-government ideology as to greatly harm our political culture's ability to get anything done - including the 'Obama derangement syndrome' that is part of the problem - rather than what you meant to show, that the political change is that we now have a horrible president in Obama.