Torture is never justifiable. If you would wish it on ANY individual, you had better be fully prepared to undergo torture yourself. Destruction of the human spirit is the one thing that I might find more deplorable than destruction of human life.
That's exactly my point. As of Gut. Bay and our current administrations other issues relating to prisoner abuse...
We know he knows something, we do know that a lot of people could die. Is it worth one person to save thousands.
For the example of the thirty five year old, the government may just "suicide him", ie make it look like he killed himself or died in an accident. Then they can torture him with impunity in some shack in the mountains.
halik
Lifer
- Oct 10, 2000
- 25,696
- 1
- 81
There is a given set of frameworks that set forth a justified course of action we as a nation can take.
There should be absolutely no dialogue in terms of whether we can or cannot justify torturing or even stripping people of their fundamental liberties. The system is in place for that very reason and there should be no discussion about it. Application of the international standards selectively based on when it's convenient will eventually reciprocate on all that support i - If I was to get caputered by a sovereign entity, I want to have all the liberties entitled to me by the international law.
There should be absolutely no dialogue in terms of whether we can or cannot justify torturing or even stripping people of their fundamental liberties. The system is in place for that very reason and there should be no discussion about it. Application of the international standards selectively based on when it's convenient will eventually reciprocate on all that support i - If I was to get caputered by a sovereign entity, I want to have all the liberties entitled to me by the international law.
Not by the means you are attempting.
In the real world, you don't *know* that he is involved, you have information that leads you to believe he might be. Even if he has told you that he is involved in it, you still don't know that torturing him is actually going to provide anything helpful for you.
Let's say, for example, that he *is* involved heavily. He snuck a nuke into the country, rounded up some terrorist cronies and sent them off to detonate it somewhere of their choosing. You torture him, find this out, and have absolutely nothing.
Now for another example - lets say he isn't involved at all, it just looks like he is - one of the people who are involved is one of his friends, and he knows nothing about it. You torture him, you get nothing.
And for the last example - lets say he isn't involved at all again, you torture him, and he tells you where the nuke is. He has no idea, but he will say anything to stop you torturing him. You send the FBI screaming off in the wrong direction.
Are these situations different to the premise that he is guilty and torture actually reveals something useful and usable ? If they are, why ? Is torture justifiable solely on whether the results are *useful* or not ?
If so, what standard of proof are you willing to accept that the results will be useful ? Would you accept the same standard if the person in question was your wife/husband ?
I agree, we can fix physical damage but emotional damage is impossible to cure. For example I personaly in many ways consider rape to be worse of a crime than murder.
Red Dawn
Elite Member
- Jun 4, 2001
- 57,529
- 3
- 0
Speak for yourself. I think most of us could kill but only sick individuals or those with no moral character could torture. For instance if I were in the Armed Services I would follow orders and kill our enemy but if given an order by a superior to torture a prisoner I wouldn't obey it even if it meant that I would be imprisoned. Eventually I would get out of prison but if I were to have followed the orders I would be tormented by it my whole life.
CycloWizard
I agree whole-heartedly. How can America portray itself as the beacon of freedom and the champion of human rights and condone torture as well? Leading by example involves not only "talking the talk", but "walking the walk" too. Honorable nations and honorable men do not make convienient exceptions to their principles. There are no "grey areas".
I agree whole-heartedly. How can America portray itself as the beacon of freedom and the champion of human rights and condone torture as well? Leading by example involves not only "talking the talk", but "walking the walk" too. Honorable nations and honorable men do not make convienient exceptions to their principles. There are no "grey areas".
id chopp thier nutts off, then thier fingers and toes...hangin them from the statue of liberty upside down with an american flag stuck down thier throat...
but no it wouldnt accomplish anything...just make me and millions of others feel better
i dont see you starting your own homless shelter? and who said i dont wanna help old or impoverished people..... oh wait...im not a fundamentalist christain, im just a republican
for how long are you willing to risk torturing people on the suspicion that they might be involved?
If I went stark raving mad and was planning a mass murder, I would hope that someone would torture me to me to prevent me from carrying it out, if it came to that.
I have info that would prevent the mass murder and all attempts to get the info out of me have failed. Torture is the last remaining option. I say go for it.
Reminds me of this thread
http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...hreadid=1328926&enterthread=y&arctab=y
But, remember, Bush is claiming "supreme executive power"
http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...hreadid=1336935&enterthread=y&arctab=y
The show "24" has been broaching this topic recently with scenes of torture for apparently productive reasons. Although, in one case, they tortured someone who was completely innocent. Is torture ever justified? IMO, no.
And it's not just liberals. John McCain is on record for saying we need to treat them better than they deserve because we are above that. We need to keep up levels of expectation lest our own soldiers be submitted to the same.
And, btw, someone who flies a plane into a building isn't going to give up any info under torture. These people are just animals. Most info obtained under torture is worthless as the victims are just saying whatever will stop the pain.
http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...hreadid=1328926&enterthread=y&arctab=y
But, remember, Bush is claiming "supreme executive power"
http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...hreadid=1336935&enterthread=y&arctab=y
The show "24" has been broaching this topic recently with scenes of torture for apparently productive reasons. Although, in one case, they tortured someone who was completely innocent. Is torture ever justified? IMO, no.
And it's not just liberals. John McCain is on record for saying we need to treat them better than they deserve because we are above that. We need to keep up levels of expectation lest our own soldiers be submitted to the same.
And, btw, someone who flies a plane into a building isn't going to give up any info under torture. These people are just animals. Most info obtained under torture is worthless as the victims are just saying whatever will stop the pain.
There are a few problems with this thought. First and foremost, you never KNOW that someone IS planning something. You can be pretty sure, but that doesn't really cut it when you're going to torture someone. Second, as others have mentioned, there is no realistic expectation of extracting accurate information from someone using torture. Third, the criteria that may be applied to allow torture are always arbitrary. Hypothetically, they could be applied to anyone, including you, even if only by mistake. Finally, treating someone using torture is never approrpriate, even if they are guilty. There are rules against cruel and unusual punishment, and I'm guessing torture is exactly why this was included in the Constitution.
In the end, torturing someone puts you at their level, if not well beneath it.
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 22K
-
Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread- Started by TheF34RChannel
- Replies: 23K
-
News NVIDIA and Intel to Develop AI Infrastructure and Personal Computing Products- Started by poke01
- Replies: 397
Facebook
Twitter