Can the Xbox 1 or the PS4 handle HDR blu-ray?

[jeff_rigby]

neogaf and wikipedia theoreticals have no bearing on real life.

DVD's holding more than 9 GB of data were demonstrated as well. Nothing ever came of it.

And those articles have NO bearing on UHD blu-rays whose layers are a different size, AND require h.265 decoding. And let's remember that HDCP 2.2 is HARDWARE controlled.

My mom's TV was "3D-upgradeable." I'll save you the time and say that it never arrived, and it wouldn't have been compatible if it had. It's all smoke and mirrors. The sooner you catch on to how thin, theoretical, and tangential your sources are, the more time you can spend on something productive.

Please read the cites.

This one is part of an exchange with the EU board regulating power use by consumer products. The first page has a link to another paper and mentions the XB1 and PS4 as UHD Capable Game Consoles. The link takes you to a Letter from Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo stating that UHD Game Consoles shipped in 2013 and will be firmware updated in 2016.

UHD Capable means HEVC and HDMI 2 with HDCP 2 taking place in the TEE as well as a HTML5 browser with WebTV W3C extensions.

UHD Capable tells us alot if you understand what that implies. For the first time due to the CE industry supporting CEA2014 and HTML5, everything uses the same standards based on open source HTML5 <video> MSE EME. For the hardware we have standards for DRM based on a hardware TEE which everyone is following.

ALL UHD media delivery schemes use the same standards INTERNATIONALLY for the first time. ATSC 3 (UHD Antenna TV) will also be supported internationally. If you can support one UHD media you can support them all. Vidipath for media sharing in the home also follows the same standards with a common DRM called Playready and from the Microsoft master list of Playready adopters, it's also a international DRM standard.

A Console model has the same features for the life of the console so for the PS4 and XB1 the Launch models have the same MAJOR features that the second, third and final versions of a model have; this applies to UHD Blu-ray support, ATSC 3, Vidipath, VR, Games, APPs etc. There are 40 million PS4 models on the market and it's necessary for the success of UHD Blu-ray that those PS4s and XB1s support UHD Blu-ray. Sony has a license for Embedded players which mentions Game Consoles (XB1 and PS4) and a separate license for PCs. Cost to support the XB1 and PS4; $.025 per console. The cost only includes the licence fee and programmers labor as the drive is firmware update-able and it uses the same software stack the browser uses and the same TEE the other media uses. This means that writing a UHD Blu-ray player for a platform that has a Browser is easier than it has ever been and likely that every UHD Blu-ray player will include a browser.

Ignorance has caused articles to insist the Launch PS4 can't support UHD Blu-ray for several reasons; HDMI 2, HEVC and Drive. The Official papers I cited state that the PS4 is UHD Capable which means it supports HDMI 2 and HEVC as well as a complete HTML5 Browser with W3C Web TV extensions. The drive is another matter not supported officially but it is firmware update-able if you read the BDA papers and the Mount Fuji book and 2010 patents from Sony-Panasonic on the 33GB/layer firmware tweek. Again the Console model would be broken in the Launch model didn't support UHD Blu-ray and later models did.

For UHD 3D HEVC multi-view plus depth is used. UHD Blu-ray needs 4X speed drives and UHD 3D will need 6X drives. HD 3D used Side by side frame packed h.264 while UHD uses HEVC plus depth map which makes it 1.5 times larger than 2D.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Yeah that is the bottom line. HDCP 2.2 isn't just a firmware upgrade away (by design), and neither the PS4's CPU nor its GPU have the power needed to decode 10bit 4K video. I could see is streaming some low bitrate 4K content, but UHD disks are out of the question. I would make a large bet on it actually.

To blow your main argument out of the water: June of 2015 Microsoft stated the XB1 supports HEVC profile 10 and shortly after AMD announced they use the same hardware to support UVD's HEVC = Xtensa accelerators. More here from Microsoft. Notice one of the Microsoft cites is their testing with several ATSC 3 TV streams.

The PS4 CPU or GPU is more than 5-20 times more powerful than needed to support UHD Blu-ray but they can not be allowed to because they do not run under a TEE and they exceed the power use a Media mode should use.

The ARM block in the XB1 APU and PS4 Southbridge managed by a ARM Trustzone processor on a ARM AXI bus with Xtensa accelerators will Play UHD Media and with full screen the PS4 APU and X-86 & GPU power islands in the XB1 APU will be turned off with the PS4 GDDR5 in self refresh and the DDR3 in the XB1 active. The PS4 Southbridge has it's own 256 MB DDR3 memory.

This is no longer NeoGAF speculation as the Official letters mention the PS4 and XB1 as UHD Capable. Vidipath and UHD Capable include a ton of MANDATED features we can talk about if you can accept the official letters stating the PS4 and XB1 are UHD Capable.

 

[Tweak155]

Can someone explain to me what the big deal about HDR is? Is it just about lighting detail?

 

[cmdrdredd]

Can someone explain to me what the big deal about HDR is? Is it just about lighting detail?

More shadow detail, wider color gamut, specular highlights that do not wash out the surrounding picture. The resulting picture is closer to how you perceive detail in real life. A reflection off the water doesn't obscure the fine detail, you see more degrees of detail in the shadows, and the expanded colors allow a wider variety closer to what you can see naturally. If you saw a movie you are familiar with you would notice the difference in the HDR version pretty much immediately.

 

[jeff_rigby]

More shadow detail, wider color gamut, specular highlights that do not wash out the surrounding picture. The resulting picture is closer to how you perceive detail in real life. A reflection off the water doesn't obscure the fine detail, you see more degrees of detail in the shadows, and the expanded colors allow a wider variety closer to what you can see naturally. If you saw a movie you are familiar with you would notice the difference in the HDR version pretty much immediately.

So are we just answering a question on HDR or the OP "Can the PS4 and XB1 support HDR" are we now understanding that the XB1 and PS4 have a HDMI 2 port and can support HDR.

 

[poofyhairguy]

To blow your main argument out of the water: June of 2015 Microsoft stated the XB1 supports HEVC profile 10 and shortly after AMD announced they use the same hardware to support UVD's HEVC = Xtensa accelerators. More here from Microsoft. Notice one of the Microsoft cites is their testing with several ATSC 3 TV streams.

Actually my main point is the Xbox One or the PS4 lacks HDCP 2.2, which they do. When you try to hook up a HDCP 2.2 device for passthrough to a 4K TV the Xbox One can't do it. I fully admitted that 4K streaming support was possible (which is what your link refers to) but I don't see any proof either current console can handle UHD disks.

If the Xbox One had HDCP 2.2 capabilities, they would have turned it on already for passthrough use. If the PS4 had UHD capabilities, they would have enabled that now that the disks are on the shelf. Instead we hear that a new PS4K is coming out presumably to allow the playback of UHD disks. Why? Because the current model can't.

HDCP 2.2 requires fixed silicon, that is the whole point. Maybe the consoles can decode some low bitrate HEVC, maybe their old HDMI port can play 4K content at 30fps max, but unless they are going to release some hardware module upgrade they don't have the silicon inside needed for HDCP 2.2 compatibility. I think you imply that some ARM chip inside can ape that silicon, but I have never seen an example of that in the industry. Every HDCP 2.2 compatible device needed a hardware upgrade to work. That was the point of the HDCP 2.2 standard.

This isn't speculative stuff anymore, UHD disks are on the shelf and neither console can play them. Plus we know a new PS4 is coming. All of the signs point to what should have been obvious from the start- consoles released in 2013 aren't playing brand new UHD disks without some sort of hardware upgrade.

And BTW I looked on Neogaf and all I see are other people telling you that you don't have an understanding of how HDCP 2.2 works. Until you can prove in all your rambling that some device, ANY device, has been firmware upgraded to HDCP 2.2 I don't see the point of continuing to "debate" the point. Without HDCP 2.2 there is no chance for it to work. Evidence of new consoles confirms the fact that new hardware is needed.

 

[poofyhairguy]

Here is the proof, without HDCP 2.2 the UHD output gets downgraded or doesn't display at all:

 

[sweenish]

Please read the cites.

This one is part of an exchange with the EU board regulating power use by consumer products. The first page has a link to another paper and mentions the XB1 and PS4 as UHD Capable Game Consoles. The link takes you to a Letter from Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo stating that UHD Game Consoles shipped in 2013 and will be firmware updated in 2016.

UHD Capable means HEVC and HDMI 2 with HDCP 2 taking place in the TEE as well as a HTML5 browser with WebTV W3C extensions.

UHD Capable tells us alot if you understand what that implies. For the first time due to the CE industry supporting CEA2014 and HTML5, everything uses the same standards based on open source HTML5 <video> MSE EME. For the hardware we have standards for DRM based on a hardware TEE which everyone is following.

ALL UHD media delivery schemes use the same standards INTERNATIONALLY for the first time. ATSC 3 (UHD Antenna TV) will also be supported internationally. If you can support one UHD media you can support them all. Vidipath for media sharing in the home also follows the same standards with a common DRM called Playready and from the Microsoft master list of Playready adopters, it's also a international DRM standard.

A Console model has the same features for the life of the console so for the PS4 and XB1 the Launch models have the same MAJOR features that the second, third and final versions of a model have; this applies to UHD Blu-ray support, ATSC 3, Vidipath, VR, Games, APPs etc. There are 40 million PS4 models on the market and it's necessary for the success of UHD Blu-ray that those PS4s and XB1s support UHD Blu-ray. Sony has a license for Embedded players which mentions Game Consoles (XB1 and PS4) and a separate license for PCs. Cost to support the XB1 and PS4; $.025 per console. The cost only includes the licence fee and programmers labor as the drive is firmware update-able and it uses the same software stack the browser uses and the same TEE the other media uses. This means that writing a UHD Blu-ray player for a platform that has a Browser is easier than it has ever been and likely that every UHD Blu-ray player will include a browser.

Ignorance has caused articles to insist the Launch PS4 can't support UHD Blu-ray for several reasons; HDMI 2, HEVC and Drive. The Official papers I cited state that the PS4 is UHD Capable which means it supports HDMI 2 and HEVC as well as a complete HTML5 Browser with W3C Web TV extensions. The drive is another matter not supported officially but it is firmware update-able if you read the BDA papers and the Mount Fuji book and 2010 patents from Sony-Panasonic on the 33GB/layer firmware tweek. Again the Console model would be broken in the Launch model didn't support UHD Blu-ray and later models did.

For UHD 3D HEVC multi-view plus depth is used. UHD Blu-ray needs 4X speed drives and UHD 3D will need 6X drives. HD 3D used Side by side frame packed h.264 while UHD uses HEVC plus depth map which makes it 1.5 times larger than 2D.

And like I said, my mom's TV was "3D-capable." You keep posting the same garbage, with no real evidence. Your personal interpretation of a standard paired with some theoretical lab results equate to jack.

You will NEVER be able to stick a 4K blu-ray in a current PS4 and have it play.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Actually my main point is the Xbox One or the PS4 lacks HDCP 2.2, which they do. When you try to hook up a HDCP 2.2 device for passthrough to a 4K TV the Xbox One can't do it. I fully admitted that 4K streaming support was possible (which is what your link refers to) but I don't see any proof either current console can handle UHD disks.

If the Xbox One had HDCP 2.2 capabilities, they would have turned it on already for passthrough use. If the PS4 had UHD capabilities, they would have enabled that now that the disks are on the shelf. Instead we hear that a new PS4K is coming out presumably to allow the playback of UHD disks. Why? Because the current model can't.

HDCP 2.2 requires fixed silicon, that is the whole point. Maybe the consoles can decode some low bitrate HEVC, maybe their old HDMI port can play 4K content at 30fps max, but unless they are going to release some hardware module upgrade they don't have the silicon inside needed for HDCP 2.2 compatibility. I think you imply that some ARM chip inside can ape that silicon, but I have never seen an example of that in the industry. Every HDCP 2.2 compatible device needed a hardware upgrade to work. That was the point of the HDCP 2.2 standard.

This isn't speculative stuff anymore, UHD disks are on the shelf and neither console can play them. Plus we know a new PS4 is coming. All of the signs point to what should have been obvious from the start- consoles released in 2013 aren't playing brand new UHD disks without some sort of hardware upgrade.

And BTW I looked on Neogaf and all I see are other people telling you that you don't have an understanding of how HDCP 2.2 works. Until you can prove in all your rambling that some device, ANY device, has been firmware upgraded to HDCP 2.2 I don't see the point of continuing to "debate" the point. Without HDCP 2.2 there is no chance for it to work. Evidence of new consoles confirms the fact that new hardware is needed.

1) HDMI pass through will not be needed when Vidipath is fully supported. HDMI pass-through will be dropped in a future XB1.

2) The other part of the puzzle mentioned in the two cites is that the PS4 and XB1 are UHD capable and will be firmware updated sometime in 2016. So three years after Launch the PS4 and XB1 will support HEVC, HDMI 2 and get a browser update to support HTML5 <video> MSE EME as well as Playready embedded and WMDRM (both listed in the PS4 Intellectual notice). WMDRM is only useful for DLNA DTCP-IP and resolutions below 1080P yet that isn't supported yet either.

3) Your logic is that the Launch PS4 and XB1 in official papers being noted as UHD Capable is not accurate and only a later version will be UHD Capable. This because a later version 2015 PS4 and 2016 PS4 (Neo) has rumor describing it as UHD Capable. You believe this because articles have mentioned the Launch XB1 and PS4 can't support HEVC and HDMI 2 ports were not ready. Further UHD disks are out and the Launch Consoles have not yet been firmware updated which would imply that they can't be updated.

a) The Launch XB1 now has HEVC profile 10 with a firmware update.
b) With the requirement that HDCP 2 take place in the TEE, a Display Port chip can support HDMI 2 (XB1 and several of the AMD APUs and dGPUs) or a Custom Panasonic HDMI chip with the timings for some of the DP modes.
c) Vidipath has not been released either and I suspect both Vidipath and UHD Blu-ray are being held back till this Christmas selling season.

4) Sony TVs have been firmware updated from HDMI 1.4 to HDMI 2 Dec 2013.

The UHD content owners required HDMI 2 to support HDCP 2.X and that HDCP 2.X be in the same TEE that all the other media is processed and be firmware update-able (not fixed) including a scheme to water mark the video. This for ALL HDMI 2 chips moved HDCP out of the HDMI and into the same SoC with the TEE where it can be watermarked before it's HDCP scrambled. For the PS4 this is Southbridge as the ARM SoC.

The PS4 has a custom Panasonic HDMI chip that passes HDCP negotiations to the Southbridge. It currently only reports as a HDMI 1.4 port but it's firmware update-able.

UHD capable requires a TEE, HEVC profile 10, a HDMI 2 port and HTML5 with WebTV extensions. If the PS4 and XB1 launch consoles are UHD Capable then they WILL have HEVC profile 10 and a HDMI 2 port. The PS4 does not yet have HTML5 <video> MSE EME support in the browser. Without that the PS4 OS can not support UHD Media. It all comes at the same time!!

Why did Sony not support Vidipath as a client when the Cable TV industry mandated by the FCC supported it June 2015. The PS4 has the WMDRM but not the HTML5 <video> MSE EME even though it reached candidate status.

The best guess is they want all Vidipath media sources available not just from Cable TV DVRs. There is no CE Client for Vidipath from anyone even though in 2014 there were 20 undergoing testing. This is by agreement or Microsoft is enforcing this VIA Playready support or lack of it.

Vidipath sources and supported dates:

1) Cable TV DVR June 2015 (requires WMDRM)
2) UHD Blu-ray Digital bridge ?? (requires Playready porting kit 3 and ND)
3) Antenna TV tuner with ATSC 1 and ATSC 3 support Starting Q4 2016 to Q1 2017 (requires WMDRM and Playready ND)

 

[jeff_rigby]

And like I said, my mom's TV was "3D-capable." You keep posting the same garbage, with no real evidence. Your personal interpretation of a standard paired with some theoretical lab results equate to jack.

You will NEVER be able to stick a 4K blu-ray in a current PS4 and have it play.

I have an inside source that says the XB1 can support UHD blu-ray with firmware update (MS VP). The Official papers say the XB1 and PS4 are UHD Capable and the XB1 supports HEVC profile 10 with multi-view since June 2015.

If the XB1 2013 drive can support UHD Blu-ray with a firmware update then the PS4 2013 drive can do so also.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Here is the proof, without HDCP 2.2 the UHD output gets downgraded or doesn't display at all:

All that proves is that UHD Capable requires HDMI 2 on which we are in agreement. The PS4 and XB1 will be UHD Capable after a firmware update as mentioned in Official papers.

Currently APPs on the PS4 do not use an embedded DRM or player. Netflix is 1.1 GB in size why? Every other STB supporting APPs, the size of the APPs are 30 MB or less...including the PS3, the average size for PS4 apps is 140 MB. After APPS start using the embedded DRM and player, after the October firmware update for UHD Compatibility, the size of APPs will drop to way under 30 MB.

 

[sweenish]

At this point, you're just trolling.

 

[poofyhairguy]

4) Sony TVs have been firmware updated from HDMI 1.4 to HDMI 2 Dec 2013.

You keep mixing HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2. They are not the same thing. HDMI 2.0 refers to the port and its speed. HDCP 2.2 refers to the copy-protection tied to a port (HDMI, MHL, Displayport, etc) that allows it to handshake with compatible devices.

Sony did update those TVs to HDMI 2.0, but those customers couldn't get HDCP 2.2 without a hardware upgrade. Here is why:

Lots of 4K TVs and 4K media players have been sold since the first models arrived in mid-2013, and many of those products — especially from 2013 — lack support for HDCP 2.2. Worse, these products cannot be upgraded because HDCP 2.2 requires a “hardware” update — it’s not fixable with a firmware update.

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-H5f1eBXjsQM/learn/what-you-need-to-know-about-hdcp-2-2.html

A 2013 console doesn't have the hardware for HDCP 2.2, it can't as that hardware wasn't available then. And per the HDCP standard as quoted above the only way to get HDCP 2.2 is via hardware- your theory of them updating some sort of firmware to get there is hogwash as that that is the OPPOSITE of how HDCP 2.2 was designed. No device on the planet has gotten a firmware upgrade for HDCP 2.2, and none will.

If fact, you are COMPLETELY missing the point. You keep going on and on about the DRM tied to streaming services, or the ability to play DRM-free OTA television. I am VERY specifically talking about UHD disks, which are based on Blu Rays. Blu Rays don't use any of the copy protection schemes you keep going on and on about. They use AACS. UHD disks in particular use AACS 2.0. And you know what is awesome? We have the document that goes over the exact specifications for that standard (that is where my image came from). This is in that document:

AACS will define ‘HDCP 2.2 flag’. HDCP 2.2 is mandatory in players’ 4K output of such content in which HDCP 2.2 flag is on.

https://wikileaks.org/sony/docs/05/...chitecture elements draft 02_23_2014.pptx.pdf

There is it plain as day. No HDCP 2.2 even if you have HDMI 2.0? Too bad, so sorry, AACS will make sure you don't see anything on that UHD disk. No amount of firmware upgrades are going to overcome that, hence why Sony is about to launch a PS4K with HDCP 2.2 compatible hardware inside. End of story.

 

[jeff_rigby]

You keep mixing HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2. They are not the same thing. HDMI 2.0 refers to the port and its speed. HDCP 2.2 refers to the copy-protection tied to a port (HDMI, MHL, Displayport, etc) that allows it to handshake with compatible devices.

Sony did update those TVs to HDMI 2.0, but those customers couldn't get HDCP 2.2 without a hardware upgrade. Here is why:

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-H5f1eBXjsQM/learn/what-you-need-to-know-about-hdcp-2-2.html

A 2013 console doesn't have the hardware for HDCP 2.2, it can't as that hardware wasn't available then. And per the HDCP standard as quoted above the only way to get HDCP 2.2 is via hardware- your theory of them updating some sort of firmware to get there is hogwash as that that is the OPPOSITE of how HDCP 2.2 was designed. No device on the planet has gotten a firmware upgrade for HDCP 2.2, and none will.

If fact, you are COMPLETELY missing the point. You keep going on and on about the DRM tied to streaming services, or the ability to play DRM-free OTA television. I am VERY specifically talking about UHD disks, which are based on Blu Rays. Blu Rays don't use any of the copy protection schemes you keep going on and on about. They use AACS. UHD disks in particular use AACS 2.0. And you know what is awesome? We have the document that goes over the exact specifications for that standard (that is where my image came from). This is in that document:

https://wikileaks.org/sony/docs/05/...chitecture elements draft 02_23_2014.pptx.pdf

There is it plain as day. No HDCP 2.2 even if you have HDMI 2.0? Too bad, so sorry, AACS will make sure you don't see anything on that UHD disk. No amount of firmware upgrades are going to overcome that, hence why Sony is about to launch a PS4K with HDCP 2.2 compatible hardware inside. End of story.

The first two lines are correct, the rest; Yup, that's what it says and it's wrong as the HDMI 2 HDCP is required to be firmware upgrade-able just in case it's broken like HDMI 1.4's FIXED HDCP was in 2010. Once that happened with a fixed HDCP scheme it's forever broken. I've learned to carefully second source any article not from a professional and to give more weight to papers written for other professionals.

HDCP2.2 is a software routine running in the PS4 and XB1 ARM trustzone managed TEE RAM. It can be firmware updated. The reason it's 2.2 is that 2.0 and 2.1 were found to be vulnerable; there will likely be a HDCP 2.3. AACS and BD+ are bluray software routines that for UHD are required to run in the same ARM trustzone TEE that contains the embedded player and HDCP. HDCP2 does a Key negotiation with the receiver Starting with a private encryption key stored in the Trustone ROM.

Now go to your second cite page 14 or so when it talks about the robustness rules and compare it to the ARM TEE Trusted video path paper below. They are identical. Go to page 6 for the below paper and you will see that DTCP-IP and HDCP 2 are required to run in that TEE. Just assume everything is encrypted entering the TEE and Exiting the TEE. AACS 2 encrypted video entering the TEE and HDCP 2 encrypted video exiting the TEE. If video exited the TEE unencrypted traveling to the HDMI chip then it can be intercepted. Everything entering and exiting the TEE is encrypted. It's a simple concept and more secure but more expensive to implement.

TrustZone®, TEE and Trusted Video Path Implementation Considerations Page 6 "DTCP/IP and HDCP SW and configuration executed in TEE" Page 18 lists HDCP 2 as a trusted Application (program) running in the protected TEE. Page 24 has the timeline and by 2012 ARM TEE/Trustzone was fully developed. The UHD blu-ray industry chose an already existing proven scheme developed in co-operation with the movie industry as did the CE industry for TVs and the FCC for the downloadable security scheme.

The UI for UHD Blu-ray is HTML5 and the media format on UHD blu-ray disk is C-ENC which is the same format that HTML5 <video> MSE EME uses which was based on the format Playready uses. This allows a UHD Digital bridge to DASH serve (HTML5 <video> MSE EME) encrypted by Playready ND to other platforms in the home.

 

[poofyhairguy]

Yup, that's what it says and it's wrong as the HDMI 2 HDCP is required to be firmware upgrade-able

First of all, I would love to see a source for that claim. And a good source too, not some forum thread. Everywhere I read says otherwise.

Secondly even if HDCP 2.2 devices are required to be updatable, HDCP 1.4 or HDCP 2.0 devices CANNOT be firmware upgraded to HDCP 2.2. HDCP 2.2 requires hardware, as in an actual chip. And I have sources that back me up on that claim:

There's no firmware upgrade that will get 2.2 working on a non-2.2 product.

http://www.cnet.com/news/hdcp-2-2-what-you-need-to-know/

Unlike the firmware upgrades that are supposedly facilitating HDMI 2.0 functionality on some AV receivers, you can’t get HDCP 2.2 without an actual chipset. You need the actual chip, and manufacturers, in a rush to market with some 4K support, aren’t waiting around.

http://www.audiogurus.com/learn/news/4k-hdmi-2-0-compatible-hdcp-2-0/2718

HDCP 2.2 is not backward compatible with the previous versions of HDCP that are currently used by most of the HD devices in all our homes. Thanks to its ignominious track record of exploitations, the protocol required a clean refresh, and since it's implemented at the hardware level, manufacturers can't simply release new firmware to bring old gear up to speed.

http://www.techhive.com/article/288...consumers-more-than-pirates-meet-hdcp-22.html

See? Its like I said. HDCP 2.2 was DESIGNED to not be backwards compatible with earlier versions of HDCP like 2.0 or 1.4. If ANY device (including a game console) could just update to support it that would be a huge hole in the protection layer. So HDCP 2.2 is purely accounted for in dedicated chips, chips that 2013 consoles don't have.

Plus I don't know why you are talking about UHD disks like they are far off in the future. They are here, at a Best Buy near you probably:

Seeing as how the discs are being sold, if Sony or Microsoft could enable UHD disk support they would already. Sony enabled 3D Blu Ray support on the PS3 as soon as those discs hit the market, but they could do that because 3D Blu Rays didn't use a new version of HDCP like UHD disks do.

What Sony (and probably Microsoft) is FOR SURE doing is releasing new hardware for 4K. If they could just update the current PS4 they would do that instead, but they can't. Hence the PS4K.

All I ask for is one actual real source that says that:

1. Microsoft and Sony are FOR SURE getting UHD disc support in the current consoles (and not you trying to tie together that narrative via web DRM bread crumbs)

or

2. Proof that ANY HDCP 2.0 or 1.4 device can be upgraded to HDCP 2.2 via firmware

Without those pieces of proof we are comparing the mud you are throwing against the wall vs actual sources from respected sites like CNET I am providing.

I know you think you heard someone "in the know" say the consoles would get UHD disk support, but maybe you misunderstood and they were referring to hardware refreshes of the consoles (like the PS4K) or maybe even 4K streaming support. It would be very easy to have a misunderstanding about that, these are fluid situations.

 

[cmdrdredd]

I know that there are devices that have HDCP 2.2 from the start but could not pass the HDR signal from UHD until a firmware update that updated the HDMI port to the 2.0a specifications. As you said though, HDCP was there from the start.

UHD Blu-Ray is here and has been for over a month. I have a small collection of 13 movies right now on my shelf. Over on AVS some have speculated that Sony is going to release the updated PS4 before they release a stand alone player. In this way they can entice potential buyers to adopt the playstation ecosystem at the same time. Hopefully it also supports Dolby Vision which as of 3 weeks ago now has finalized their authoring tools for HDR grading and mastering for UHD Blu-Ray discs. Previous to that all the Dolby Vision movies have been for the cinema or streaming only. If it does, the new PS4 could be a very nice all in one solution supporting UHD Blu-Ray playback in both HDR10 and Dolby Vision with support for 4k streaming media apps, including Sony's Ultra service which offers a large selection of titles from their catalog in 4k with HDR including Ghostbusters 1+2 which is slated to release on UHD disc in June. They may actually entice me to purchase the new console if it is more of a universal solution than the current Samsung k8500.

 

[jeff_rigby]

First of all, I would love to see a source for that claim. And a good source too, not some forum thread. Everywhere I read says otherwise. All I ask for is one actual real source that says that:

1. Microsoft and Sony are FOR SURE getting UHD disc support in the current consoles (and not you trying to tie together that narrative via web DRM bread crumbs)

2. Proof that ANY HDCP 2.0 or 1.4 device can be upgraded to HDCP 2.2 via firmware

Following the Xbox One's unveiling on Tuesday, Microsoft's Yusuf Mehdi told Forbes the console's video and interface will work with UHD TVs. "The video and interface portions [will work with next-gen TVs], absolutely," he said. "Games developed for 1080p will run at 1080p, obviously." Mehdi also revealed the console will support 4K for Blu-ray at launch, with the possibility of games and other content being available at 4K in the future if they are rendered at that resolution.

"There's no hardware restriction there at all," he said.

Secondly even if HDCP 2.2 devices are required to be updatable, HDCP 1.4 or HDCP 2.0 devices CANNOT be firmware upgraded to HDCP 2.2. HDCP 2.2 requires hardware, as in an actual chip. And I have sources that back me up on that claim:

Southbridge and the custom Panasonic HDMI chip are a HDMI 2 design with the firmware not yet supporting HDMI 2. There is no disconnect in this except in your mind.

Plus I don't know why you are talking about UHD disks like they are far off in the future. They are here, at a Best Buy near you probably:

Seeing as how the discs are being sold, if Sony or Microsoft could enable UHD disk support they would already. Sony enabled 3D Blu Ray support on the PS3 as soon as those discs hit the market, but they could do that because 3D Blu Rays didn't use a new version of HDCP like UHD disks do.

What Sony (and probably Microsoft) is FOR SURE doing is releasing new hardware for 4K. If they could just update the current PS4 they would do that instead, but they can't. Hence the PS4K.

I know you think you heard someone "in the know" say the consoles would get UHD disk support, but maybe you misunderstood and they were referring to hardware refreshes of the consoles (like the PS4K) or maybe even 4K streaming support. It would be very easy to have a misunderstanding about that, these are fluid situations.

The source of the XB1 Launch hardware is UHD Blu-ray capable

Corporate Vice President, Windows and Devices Group Microsoft
June 2015 &#8211; Present (1 year)
Global marketing and business for Windows, Bing, MSN, Xbox, Surface Pro and Surface Hub, Hololens, Lumia Phones, and Microsoft Band.

CVP, Marketing, Business & Strategy, Interactive Entertainment Division Microsoft
November 2011 &#8211; Present (4 years 7 months)Seattle, Washington
The Interactive Entertainment Division for Microsoft is an approximately $10B revenue business operating in over 50 countries and inclusive of approximately 80M consoles for Xbox 360, Xbox One, and related hardware accessories.

As to timing, PS4 and XB1 sales will depend on the UHD Digital bridge for HD disks and Vidipath as well as current DVR support for ATSC 1 and Future ATSC 3 support. UHD Blu-ray is just a precursor for ATSC 3.

 

[poofyhairguy]

Following the Xbox One's unveiling on Tuesday, Microsoft's Yusuf Mehdi told Forbes the console's video and interface will work with UHD TVs. "The video and interface portions [will work with next-gen TVs], absolutely," he said. "Games developed for 1080p will run at 1080p, obviously." Mehdi also revealed the console will support 4K for Blu-ray at launch, with the possibility of games and other content being available at 4K in the future if they are rendered at that resolution.

"There's no hardware restriction there at all," he said.

He is talking about 4K support, which I admit the Xbox One can do. When he said that UHD disks were barely on the drawing board. The Xbox One can't support UHD disks, no one from Microsoft ever said otherwise. 4K for Blu Ray is not UHD Blu Ray. The UHD difference is more than resolution.

Southbridge and the custom Panasonic HDMI chip are a HDMI 2 design with the firmware not yet supporting HDMI 2. There is no disconnect in this except in your mind.

There is a disconnect. HDMI 2 support does not mean guaranteed HDCP 2.2 support. I can point to many devices as proof. Here is a HDCP 2.2 whitepaper as proof:

There is HDMI 2.0 equipment that supports HDCP 2.2, but with a maximum data rate of
10.2 Gbps instead of 18 Gbps. This is typical of HDMI equipment where many features
such as maximum data rate, or 3D capability, are optional and not required to be
implemented fully. It is also possible to encounter some HDMI 1.4 equipment, such as
extenders, that support HDCP 2.2. Consequently, the level of HDCP support for a piece
of video equipment should be determined separately from HDMI.

http://www.extron.com/download/files/whitepaper/hdcp_2_2_wp.pdf

HDCP 2.2 needs a very certain chip to work. A 2013 console doesn't have that chip in it, it can't as it wasn't ready at that time. The standard barely was agreed on by the end of 2013. It took until 2014 for those chips to be made.

As to timing, PS4 and XB1 sales will depend on the UHD Digital bridge for HD disks

So you are willing to admit that the current consoles as they are won't play the UHD disks? Because that is what you are admitting if you didn't know- if they depend on the UHD Digital bridge that means they are depending on some other device to actually play the disk.

UHD Blu-ray is just a precursor for ATSC 3.

No it isn't. ATSC 3 is a digital broadcast standard, UHD Blu Ray is an optical media distribution platform. Totally different goals and target markets. The only similarity is they both will distribute 4k content, even though UHD disks will probably be a lot higher quality of 4K on average.

 

[jeff_rigby]

He is talking about 4K support, which I admit the Xbox One can do. When he said that UHD disks were barely on the drawing board. The Xbox One can't support UHD disks, no one from Microsoft ever said otherwise. 4K for Blu Ray is not UHD Blu Ray. The UHD difference is more than resolution.

There is a disconnect. HDMI 2 support does not mean guaranteed HDCP 2.2 support. I can point to many devices as proof. Here is a HDCP 2.2 whitepaper as proof:

http://www.extron.com/download/files/whitepaper/hdcp_2_2_wp.pdf

HDCP 2.2 needs a very certain chip to work. A 2013 console doesn't have that chip in it, it can't as it wasn't ready at that time. The standard barely was agreed on by the end of 2013. It took until 2014 for those chips to be made.

So you are willing to admit that the current consoles as they are won't play the UHD disks? Because that is what you are admitting if you didn't know- if they depend on the UHD Digital bridge that means they are depending on some other device to actually play the disk.

No it isn't. ATSC 3 is a digital broadcast standard, UHD Blu Ray is an optical media distribution platform. Totally different goals and target markets. The only similarity is they both will distribute 4k content, even though UHD disks will probably be a lot higher quality of 4K on average.

Post # 32 is fact sourced from your cite and mine. The movie industry wants HDCP 2.2 to take place in the Media TEE. and my cite shows HDCP 2.2 in the ARM TEE. From key words in one of your HDCP 2 cites: HDCP 2.0 was developed in 2008 but primarily used for WiFi and DTCP-IP type DRM. HDCP 2.1 was found to be vulnerable and 4K media needed a secure DRM for Lan, WiFI and HDMI which became HDCP 2.2 in 2012 used for Miracast and other streaming DRM and HDCP 2.2 was mapped to HDMI in 2013 using the same pins, voltages and with backward support for HDMI 1 and it's HDCP scheme. As is usually the case, HDCP 2.2 for HDMI builds on HDCP 1 for HDMI 1 and a company like Panasonic could build a custom chip that could support HDMI 2 with the HDCP 2.2 crypto routines and encryption of the media in the Media TEE. So the HDCP 2.2 negotiation and mapping from the TEE to the HDMI 2 chip is the missing piece that occurred in 2013.

The HDMI 2 standard includes HDCP 2.2 over LAN and HDCP 2.2 also supports Miracast via WiFi direct. It is not mapped to the HDMI port in these cases and both are required to be supported in the same Media TEE. With HDMI 2 Multi-view the customer (client/receiver) sees the LAN port as a Labeled HDMI port but it's really a DTCP-IP like streaming DRM scheme.

Samsung and Sony (likely others too) are putting RVU and DLNA with Vidipath in the near future also on the source menu along with HDMI.

You keep assuming because of release date that UHD Capable for the Launch Game Consoles is some intermediate just barely able to support UHD standard. If the PS3 is HD and the PS4 and XB1 are UHD Capable then what is the difference? The PS3 later models can support UHD and UHD blu-ray with the intermediate standards you are attributing to the Launch PS4.

The hardware differences between the PS3 and PS4 as it relates to supported features. Bold is what makes the PS4 UHD Capable:

USB2 vs USB3
480P Camera vs 720P Stereo (PS3 USB2 limits the camera)
HDMI 1.4 ( HDCP in the HDMI Chip) vs HDMI 2 (HDCP in the TEE)
Hypervisor vs Trustzone TEE Both have embedded data as DRM KEYs with ARM trustzone having multiple keys allowing the use of a different keys if one is discovered.
Traditional boot VS Root of Trust boot using the TEE
Playready Porting kit 2.5 vs Playready Porting kit 3
PS3 with very limited power mode control
PS4 Totally separate OS and Trustzone TEE using ARM for all MEDIA with power modes allowing the APU to be turned off and GDDR5 in self refresh for full screen video.


The PS3 can support 4K @ 24 FPS as long as it's not media that requires DRM. The PS3 is getting Playready porting kit 2.5 and probably watermarking so that it can support 1080P. It will get the same Webkit HTML5 <video> browser and likely APPs. It will not support 4K DRM media at any FPS. It will get Playready ND, Playready porting kit 2.5 and WMDRM as an included subset. The PS4 will get Playready porting kit 3, Playready ND and WMDRM for media below 1080P because Playready porting kit 3 does not include WMDRM.

I mentioned the UHD Digital bridge supporting HD 1080P because there is more of it and it will be more attractive than the digital bridge for 30 or so UHD movies.

 

[Tweak155]

Man you guys seriously need to just wait and see what happens. Even if the XB1 & PS4 could support UHD BR, doesn't mean they'll enable it. And if they can support it and it gets enabled, great...

 

[jeff_rigby]

Man you guys seriously need to just wait and see what happens. Even if the XB1 & PS4 could support UHD BR, doesn't mean they'll enable it. And if they can support it and it gets enabled, great...

I think you are missing the point of boards like this one. While there is an element of testosterone, both sides are doing research and learning to support our positions. Unfortunately, there is so much miss-information on UHD capable and what it means; HDCP 2.2, HDMI 2, HDR, HEVC hardware codec vs software with accelerators, ATSC 3 (world wide 4K Antenna TV), UHD Blu-ray, UHD Blu-ray with digital bridge, Trustzone TEE, Vidipath, HTML5 <video> MSE EME and C-ENC.

To properly understand what's coming you need a basic understanding of the above. Problem is the people writing articles often don't understand it either and anyone who relies on their articles is confused.

AMD in their APUs has incorporated ARM Trustzone since 2010, Xtensa Accelerators on that ARM bus managed by Trustzone since the ATI days and Xtensa accelerators are the AMD UVD codec and are in the XB1 and PS4 to support vision processing and codecs like HEVC. The KEY to all the DRM needed by UHD is a ARM Trustzone TEE for iOS, Android, AMD APUs and dGPUs, XB1 and PS4. EVERY DRM is required to run in that TEE including for UHD BLu-ray, AACS 2, BD+ and HDCP2 .

 

[sweenish]

Man you guys seriously need to just wait and see what happens. Even if the XB1 & PS4 could support UHD BR, doesn't mean they'll enable it. And if they can support it and it gets enabled, great...

If they could play UHD blu-rays, they would have updated to do so, or announced that they were working on it. They wouldn't leave money on the table.

Current consoles cost as much or less than current UHD standalone players. At their current price, they are poised as the perfect UHD players. But they can't and won't play the discs. End of story.

 

[Tweak155]

I think you are missing the point of boards like this one. While there is an element of testosterone, both sides are doing research and learning to support our positions. Unfortunately, there is so much miss-information on UHD capable and what it means; HDCP 2.2, HDMI 2, HDR, HEVC hardware codec vs software with accelerators, ATSC 3 (world wide 4K Antenna TV), UHD Blu-ray, UHD Blu-ray with digital bridge, Trustzone TEE, Vidipath, HTML5 <video> MSE EME and C-ENC.

To properly understand what's coming you need a basic understanding of the above. Problem is the people writing articles often don't understand it either and anyone who relies on their articles is confused.

AMD in their APUs has incorporated ARM Trustzone since 2010, Xtensa Accelerators on that ARM bus managed by Trustzone since the ATI days and Xtensa accelerators are the AMD UVD codec and are in the XB1 and PS4 to support vision processing and codecs like HEVC. The KEY to all the DRM needed by UHD is a ARM Trustzone TEE for iOS, Android, AMD APUs and dGPUs, XB1 and PS4. EVERY DRM is required to run in that TEE including for UHD BLu-ray, AACS 2, BD+ and HDCP2 .

Me having an understanding of what's coming has no impact on whether or not it comes. I get wanting to know, but after as much back and forth you two have had, obviously waiting to see who is right is the way to go. No convincing is taking place, and ultimately will not alter the outcome.

 

[poofyhairguy]

Me having an understanding of what's coming has no impact on whether or not it comes. I get wanting to know, but after as much back and forth you two have had, obviously waiting to see who is right is the way to go. No convincing is taking place, and ultimately will not alter the outcome.

Fair enough. I will leave it be.

 

[jeff_rigby]

If they could play UHD blu-rays, they would have updated to do so, or announced that they were working on it. They wouldn't leave money on the table.

Current consoles cost as much or less than current UHD standalone players. At their current price, they are poised as the perfect UHD players. But they can't and won't play the discs. End of story.

If they were going to support Vidipath then they would have announced so. Or a Downloadable Security Scheme, or DVR ...opps, Microsoft has announced that, or support for Netflix UHD....opps, they have hinted at that. Microsoft and Sony have not announced this but it's coming. There will be several Vidipath servers in the home;

Cable TV DVR with Tuners
UHD Bu-ray with digital bridge with optional DVR
Antenna TV tuner with optional DVR
Side Loaded Media via Playready to local server

In Microsoft Playready ND papers, which is mentioned in the Panasonic UHD Blu-ray digital bridge proposals, is Game Consoles using it for Live and DVR streaming in the home from platform to platform. Playready ND is required for 1080P and 4K streaming.

From Microsoft's Playready 3 site: Supporting In-Home Content Distribution with PlayReady for Network Devices page 14

"The game console, acting as a PlayReady ND transmitter, has obtained a license from the service and it sends media files to valid PlayReady ND receivers that are part of the same in-home network. It also uses PlayReady technologies to build and issue local licenses to authorized receiving devices. Note that this model can also be applied to both live streams, video-on-demand and DVR content."

This outlines a model similar to Vidipath except using Playready ND instead of WMDRM10 and confirms the XB1 and PS4 will be streaming 4K media in the home (from Cable TV and OTT) and supports both as 4K blu-ray players with digital bridge.

In Papers Sony sent to the FCC DSTAC Sony has charts showing this Vidipath streaming from Cable TV DVRs and Cable Modems to the PS3, PS4, phones, tablets and TVs.

For the PS3 a PDF on Passage was just released at the latest FCC DSTAC (Downloadable Security Technical Advisory Committee) meeting. Page 12 has a chart showing a PS3 being used as a Vidipath STB.

Top path is RVU which the PS3 already supports.
Direct Attach End to End (center path) which is all IPTV direct from a cable modem . The future but Cable can't currently support more than a small percentage of their customers going all IPTV.
Sony is definitely supporting Vidipath, page 12 bottom path (Traditional Cable TV with the DLNA CVP2 FCC mandate where a DVR with tuners converts a RF channel to IPTV streams )

Second Sony Passage Paper to the FCC DSTAC is about using clear QAM tuners (USB, PC Card and Network tuners) with PCs, PS4, Phones and Tablets as the client using the DSS (Downloadable Security Scheme) (page 10 and 11). A picture of the PS3 labeled PS4 on page 11 is using a Hauppauge USB Tuner. Also on that page is a HD Homerun network tuner feeding a home WiFi router to portables.