Can the Bush fans explain this to me?

[vi edit]

$8,000 a year!!! WIth two kids that's almost half of what the *average* families net income is. I would freaking hope that it would be superior to a "free" public school.




<< Chances are, that the schools these kids are leaving already have undersized classrooms, understaffed faculty, etc. The advantage of vouchers is that the teachers and the funds will go where the students are. The problems that you talk about aren't likely to happen. >>



Vouchers are a band aide solution. All they do is cover the bleeding until the blood saturates the bandage and oozes out all over the place. I agree that reforms need to be made, but yanking kids out and sticking them somewhere else isn't the answer. Teachers are underpaid for the education that they have. How many other professions have masters degree holders making only $40,000 a year after 10 years of service? When you pay that low, many of your better qualified people will look into better paying professions. I should know. I'm one of them. I looked into getting my teaching degree for k-12. Here in Iowa I could get an entry level position making about 22k a year. Whoopee! I can work at McDonalds full time and make the same, and if I take the McDonald's job I don't have to worry about $20,000 in school loans.

 

[NOX]

<< NOX, but could you afford to send three kids to private school on a middle income? >>

Definitely not. I would probable need to take two jobs. The only other way I could see myself being able to do this was is if my (only) son, graduated before my second kid was ready for middle school/high school.

I recently (yesterday) got a job offer, from a well-known observatory in Hawaii as an assistant observer. I found out today that one of the benefits is that they?ll pay 75% tuition for my kids schooling at a prominent private school here. In that case yes I could probably afford if, but not everyone is so lucky right?

So yes, definitely no, I would not be able to.

<< How many other professions have masters degree holders making only $40,000 a year after 10 years of service? >>

A lot of them don't even make that much. My mom who is a school teacher (now counselor) only makes about $35,000, before getter her masters she only made $27,000 (more then ten years service).

 

[Wingznut]

That sounds awful, SJ. Wait, did you say that was in Texas? Where GW was just governor? Interesting.

 

[Angrymarshmello]

Can the Democrat fans explain this to you: instead of comparing what Bush will/won't do, why don't you ask yourselves why Bill Clinton in his 8 years of office didn't do anything about this?

 

[dolphins]

myputer its relatively simple to explain. The private sector will always do it better than the public sector becuase they have something called accountability whether to their management or to shareholders. The only reason that there arent more private schools at a cheaper price has to do with the fact that there isnt a large enough pool of prospective clients(students) to make it economically viable. If you were to put in place a voucher system or an opt out corporations would rush to supply that demand, which would in turn foster competition and lower the high costs associated with it or in your case that private school may take it upon itself to expand its services based on the fact that there is a larger pool of again clients(students)which would directly lower costs. There is no corporation that will build any infrastructure without the knowledge that they will get a return on that investment. First step though is to put the system in place and again that would mean a voucher or opt out.

 

[dolphins]

Uh yeah that texas where bush spent his time trying to straighten out the mess that anne richards left for him. I guess folks must have liked him seeing as how he won re-election with an overwhelming majority in a traditionally democratic state.

 

[NOX]

<< Lastly, coachs(atleast in Texas) get paid $20,000-30,000 more than teachers. >>

LOL...no fvcken way! Our coaches here get paid about $4000 year, definitely not more the $10,000 (I hope). That is crazy. (and I'm not trying to blame Bush for that, just comparing it to my state)

The only coach that I can think of that even makes close to a lot of money is a private school coach that has won more high school football state championships then he can probably even count. And who?s team has been nationally ranked for the past 20 years. I believe he makes about $90,000 a year, or more.

 

[Triumph]

why should we expect this bill to work 100% of the time? why should we expect any bill or law to work 100% of the time? we shouldn't, so deal with it.

 

[jjm]

dolphins - I have not seen any voucher proposal that claims the program would logically lead to a corporate model with high efficiency. I have seen loads of stuff that offers a vague assertion that &quot;competition is good.&quot; Care to share your source?

I notice that no one even attempts to explain how the truly low income families would get access to quality education under a partial voucher system. (Assuming that &quot;quality&quot; education is available only from private schools.) Many studies show that socio-economic background has a porfound impact on the educational opportunities available to the student. I must conclude that there is general agreement that a partial voucher system is not intended to benefit low income families, only middle and upper income families.

 

[Wingznut]

&quot;bush spent his time trying to straighten out the mess that anne richards left for him&quot;

Yeah, yeah... And Clinton inherited a good economy from the Republicans, and it took him EXACTLY eight years to screw it up. Bush was governor for how long, six years? And all the problems are still from the previous governor?
Why do partiests always blame the problem on the previous other party's member? This goes both directions, so I'm not blaming only the republicans.


&quot;Can the Democrat fans explain this to you: instead of comparing what Bush will/won't do, why don't you ask yourselves why Bill Clinton in his 8 years of office didn't do anything about this?&quot;

myputer was asking an excellent question. It's pretty irrelevant as to what Clinton did or didn't do, since school vouchers weren't an issue last year. They are an issue now. Again, how about being constructive and answering the question at hand?


I wholeheartedly agree with you, dolphins. It's been proven time and time again, that the private sector can do things better than the government. However, there'd be a huge gap between the time vouchers were initiated and the potential damage they can cause, vs. the time that the private sector can get up to speed.

 

[vi edit]

Can some one explain this to me? What do private schooled kids have when they graduate that public schooled kids don't?

 

[jjm]

Seriously, why do the voucher proposals limit themselves to only partial subsidies? What is the argument against full subsidies for the school of one's choice? Who cares if a private school is more expensive? Society gets a better educated, more productive citizen.

 

[Russ]

<< While you view it as competition and Conservative vs. Liberal, I view it as what's best for my kids. >>



The public school system is an abject failure. Competition would force them in to ACTUALLY doing the job that they are supposed to be doing. That would be best for your kids. This is not a difficult concept.

Russ, NCNE

 

[Russ]

<< What do private schooled kids have when they graduate that public schooled kids don't? >>



A good education.

Russ, NCNE

 

[Raspewtin]

i don't understand what mandate the federal govt at all has to decide this issue, since education is handled locally. This should be decided on a state level IMO. We should be decreasing the role of the federal govt in education.

 

<< I have nothing against public schools, honestly I think there are more failing today because of the lack of interest people have in the >>



Have to consider the lack of interest in the child to learn. I pulled straight As through most of school. Had absolutly no interest in any of it until mabey ap chem or ap physics. But even then my interest level was at a minimum. I kept good grades though.
Now what about kids that don't get good grades? Is it because they are not interested? Does it make their teaching staff or the facilities any less of quality?
You could have moved me to any school, private or public, and I would still have not been interested.

So they make school a lot more challenging to complete with international standards. Regents here in NY is a perfect example. But our kids can't handle that, so they start to fail. As time goes on the bar gets raised further.
Now do you think that raising this bar of standards continually will spark a childs interest in learning? Especially the kids who have problems already. So they don't cut it so they fail. Failing in high school and primary school is REALLY rough on a kid. But the system says they should learn from it, and learn to be better.
I don't think its the way to do it, no matter where you put them, its not going to help that much.

 

[dolphins]

jjm i am basing my assumption on the fact that the forces against this which i believe includes the media will not allow this to happen because of the simple fact that it would prove the other sides view that it can work. In order to spread the gospel so to speak you have to start with baby steps first. If i remember correctly there are some corporations out there doing just this some in , private schooling for profit i mean, and are able to beat public schools handily. Again because there isnt a large enough pool the increase in these organizations has not occured.

Many studies show that socio-economic background has a porfound impact on the educational opportunities available to the student.

That is exactly my point, now obviously this group will not become rich overnight so here is a way, and i think i'm crazy for saying this, for government to actually do something beneficial by stepping back and allowing the private sector to have a go at this.

I notice that no one even attempts to explain how the truly low income families would get access to quality education under a partial voucher system.

You have to crawl fisrt before you can learn to walk. sitting idley by and simply throwing more money at it will not fix the problem.

I have seen loads of stuff that offers a vague assertion that &quot;competition is good.&quot;

Seeing as how we are in a technology forum Intel vs. AMD would be a case in point. Federal express, UPS, DHL vs. U.S. Postal service would be another. Competition has and always be good for the consumer, monopolies like the Public education system or AT&amp;T with a centralized form of management and no competition just like all others will always be doomed to failure.

 

[Wingznut]

I think that public schools are failing due to lack of interactive parenting. Period. I follow what my son learns. If I don't think it's enough, or not accurate, then I carry on from there. It is the parents' (and child's) responsibility to ensure their kids' education. Not the schools'.

Russ, you're bright. Did you go to public school? I consider myself educated, and I went to public school. I don't think they are as bad as people make them out to be.

 

[dolphins]

jjm in response to your second post. What is the argument against full subsidies for the school of one's choice? It's because of the vested interests in this power play and the governments loss of again power and control over its citizenry.
Wingznut pez agreed on the part of getting up to speed but if i'm not mistaken the plan will not automatically start at the time the bill is signed into law but will have a 3 year period to identify the garbage thats out there. That leaves plenty of time for folks to study and identify the areas that will need it.

 

[jjm]

dolphins - I thought a major reason for proposing alternative approaches was because the old system did not work and/or was taking too long to produce results. I thought many politicians were highly critical of the incremental tinkering being attempted at failing schools, demanding more immediate progress. You suggest that a voucher system could take a very long time to produce desired results too. The benefit is where?

If the voucher covered 100%, wouldn't there be a greater chance for more immediate results? We need better educated workers now, not 10, 15 or 20 years from now. Again, where is the argument in favor of partial subsidies versus full subsidies?

 

[vi edit]

<< << What do private schooled kids have when they graduate that public schooled kids don't? >>
A good education.

Russ, NCNE >>



Really? Explain to me what a *good* education is. Was the fact that I went a public high school, on to college, obtained a degree in CS, and landed a decent job the result of a *bad* education?

Is the fact that my girlfriend went to a public high school, got an undergrad in Chemistry, placed in the 99th percentile on the Pharmacy pre-entrance exam, and now enrolled in a top notch pharmacy program the result of a *bad* education?

 

[Russ]

<< i don't understand what mandate the federal govt at all has to decide this issue, since education is handled locally. This should be decided on a state level IMO. We should be decreasing the role of the federal govt in education. >>



Raspewtin,

I am in great anguish as I say this: YOU ARE 100% RIGHT. Federal Piggy should get the hell out of it.

Wingznut PEZ,

Yes, I went to public school, but I graduated 27 years ago. Then, teachers made about what I earned as an Assistant Manager in a pizza joint when I was 18 years old. We also averaged over 30 students per class, and the system spent 1/3 per student of what it does today.

Strangely, though, public schools were pretty good then.

Russ, NCNE

 

[dolphins]

Jjm i'm totally in agreement with you i'd be more in favor of an opt out clause altogether. But things being the way they are thats a total pipe dream. The strength on the other side of this issue are almost insurmountable and without any proof that this could in fact work, meaning studies to back up their idea then things will never change. I would much rather have them start small and prove their point than to not try at all.

 

[jjm]

Clearly Russ must be in favor of 100% subsidies. Private schools are superior and anything less deprives our children of anything remotely resembling a quality education. Period. Others?

 

[Russ]

<< Was the fact that I went a public high school, on to college, obtained a degree in CS, and landed a decent job the result of a *bad* education? >>



No, it was in spite of it. When you can say that the majority of the students in every public school do as well, then you can argue that the system isn't broken. The majority of private schools can already make that argument.

Russ, NCNE