Can Target security legally detain customers?

[TallBill]

I detained a guy for stealing from our bar.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=239458

 

[hanoverphist]

But yes, rent-a-cop's can detain someone for the real cops to arrive.

Nothing gives a shoplifter the right to steal, but nothing gives a standard employee the right to assault and/or battery (depending on your state) either. So two wrongs don't make a right. I would be surprised if the employees were LEGALLY allowed to detain anyone without violating the lie.

bolded the important parts. security employees are trained for that specific purpose, they are not standard employees. i did the plain clothes thing for Kmart a long time ago. i was licensed and bonded by the fed govt to carry a weapon and all. under that umbrella, security employees can tag your ass and put you in a room until the cops get there. IF you resist. they can not do "whatever is necessary" tho, that leaves all kinds of room for overzealous guards to beat the holy hell out of someone. no, i wasnt allowed to carry a weapon while doing security for Kmart. that was for a security gig at federal buildings.

 

[bobdole369]

Nothing gives a shoplifter the right to steal, but nothing gives a standard employee the right to assault and/or battery (depending on your state) either.

security employees are trained for that specific purpose, they are not standard employees

There is nothing inherent about security training that gives them any firmer legal standing than anyone else. The legal basis for citizens arrest dates back to before the constitution in English Common Law.

The bottom line is that anybody really can perform a citizens arrest. You don't need special training, or to even be employed by the store. As long as you witnessed it, and will testify under oath that you saw a ***felony*** in all 49 states (NC has no specific citizens arrest laws) - you can tackle the guy.

Security folk know this inherently. You and I might not be able to differentiate betwixt a felony and misdemeanor on the fly.

 

[hanoverphist]

my mom works as an EVP of a Bank and they were told by the higher ups.. if someone comes in to rob the bank and demands money... give them whatever they want.

between security cameras, dye packs, FBI, etc... they'll eventually get it back. They don't want to risk employee lives and worse.

my MiL worked at a bank and was told the same thing. stay alert, study the robber for any details to ID and give them what they want. they were robbed twice, she and the other tellers gave perfect descriptions of the guys both times. one guy robbed them with a note. she thought he was kidding at first and laughed at him, but he told her he was serious. i thought the whole thing sounded like a surreal cartoon or something

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

only in the US do criminals have more rights than law abiding citizens.
i don't understand this ass backwards nation.

 

[SunnyD]

Here's the problem. It's not shoplifting until the perpetrator leaves the premises. You really want to fuck with store security, use your pockets as your shopping cart. The police will start to hate you every time they get called on you, but it's fun to watch a manager get owned.

That being said, you still can get legally detained for doing so. But your compliance is key here. They can not assault you in order to detain you, at least not until you leave the store.

 

[classy]

In most states you can, but the lines are very thin. In NJ you can, unless they resist, if they resist you do not have the right to physically restrain a person. You are not suppose to touch them. I don't know about other states, but usually the ability to restrain a person physically usually requires that person have some type of policing or constable powers.

 

[Kipper717]

I suggest you check the consumerist.org site. This topic has been covered ad infinitum, as well as issues regarding receipt checking at Walamart and other retailors.

 

[JD50]

In most states you can, but the lines are very thin. In NJ you can, unless they resist, if they resist you do not have the right to physically restrain a person. You are not suppose to touch them. I don't know about other states, but usually the ability to restrain a person physically usually requires that person have some type of policing or constable powers.

That wasn't the case in Maryland, DC, or VA, I got in plenty of fights with the crackheads trying to steal chainsaws and lawn mowers.

 

[hanoverphist]

There is nothing inherent about security training that gives them any firmer legal standing than anyone else. The legal basis for citizens arrest dates back to before the constitution in English Common Law.

The bottom line is that anybody really can perform a citizens arrest. You don't need special training, or to even be employed by the store. As long as you witnessed it, and will testify under oath that you saw a ***felony*** in all 49 states (NC has no specific citizens arrest laws) - you can tackle the guy.

Security folk know this inherently. You and I might not be able to differentiate betwixt a felony and misdemeanor on the fly.

while thats true, there is a bit more knowledge of dos and donts with a LP/ sec personnel. i saw a massive accident one time where the driver tried to flee. an old guy that saw it jumped thru the guys driver window and put him in a choke hold until cops got there. he was detained along with the driver, given a stern talking to and the driver was asked whether he wanted to press charges or not. he declined, even tho it was pretty obvious he was totally smashed and didnt know what he was declining. on the flipside, when i tried to escort a seriously delusional hobo out of kmart and ended up having to drop him and keep him restrained until the cops got there, i got a pat on the back.

it was also very amusing seeing that old guy literally superman fly into that guys window and headlock him.

 

[Q]

Are you fucking retarded? I just admitted I work there and what I do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5Fa9gsxnwQ

Simple 1 minute youtube search. Target LP in action.

Hehe, pretty funny video, love the security guard who was 'running too fast' and tripped on his own legs.

 

[Nik]

A friend of mine works for Target, he started off as a front door security guard and then moved up to the plain clothes guys that walk around the store looking for shoplifters. He and the uniform guards carry handcuffs and he claims that if someone who is suspected of theft leaves the store they have the authority to use what ever force necessary to detain them, (he claims he has physically tackled people before).

The walmart tackling thread made me think about this. Does anyone know if this is true? What makes these security guards any different from the people at BB, Walmart, ect.? What gives them the right to physically lay their hands on someone else? Im just curious, Ive never heard of a retail store security force that has the authority to detain people.

Yes, they can, but they need to be able to back up their detainment with proof of illegal activity. My cousin has been head of security at several retail stores. She's sprinted out into the parking lot, tackled a guy resulting in his broken arm, got punched in the face, kicked his ass in return, and DRAGGED him back into the store to call the police.

He went to jail for shoplifting and assault because she had him on video doing so.

 

[sourceninja]

In indiana anyone may make a citizen's arrest (see I.C. 35-33-1-4). Unless it is clear the suspect is armed, a frisk is questionable. Searching any belongings with you may be legal, but even if it wasn't legal anything found could still be used as evidence because only government agents are bound by the 4th amendment. However a search could be construed as 'assault' IF you were not doing anything illegal.

(2) a felony has been committed and he has probable cause to believe that the other person has committed that felony; or
(3) a misdemeanor involving a breach of peace is being committed in his presence and the arrest is necessary to prevent the continuance of the breach of peace.

Now, the question is, is stealing breaching the peace because in indiana

For incidents of shoplifting items valued at under $250, you are generally charged with criminal conversion, a Class A misdemeanor.

If you steal items valued at greater than $250, you are generally charged with a Class D Felony theft offense.

Thus if it is an item under $250.00 it may be illegal for them to attempt to detain you.

Fun shit right?

 

[TurtleCrusher]

Apparently you are for not knowing that every state has different laws about shit like this.

Apparently Assets Protection is employed and operating in every Target. There is not a free-pass state when it comes to shoplifting.

And Red Dawn, each store loses from 100k to nearly 1mil each year. It really depends. The median for any high end retail store is from 3-500K.

 

[MarcustheGreat]

I am not a rep of Target. Just getting this over with first.

I work for Target Security. Any force used to detain a shoplifter must be reasonable and just. It is within merchant statute laws that allow citizens detaining other citizens for non-felony crimes.

I'm somewhat surprised. A lot of you have no idea what you are talking about, so stop trying. I pretty much earn my living abiding by company policies and state laws. Anyone can detain you outside of the premises in which the theft occurred, yet companies don't condone that as safety is severely compromised for the employee and others around. Loss Prevention can use any force necessary to keep you there. This includes tackling and using any actions to prevent/stop the subject from assualting the employee. However, it is against some companies policies to have these actions take place.

Most arrests (9 of 10) go without physical intervention, so some LP might not ever have to encounter these problems. Of the arrests that do involve physical intervention, most go with a minor detainment. The few that go against the norm are higher level boosters, which will do everything and anything to get away.

I've already been punched, kicked, kneed, pricked and scraped up by detaining shoplifters. Some I had to just get a hand on to calm down. Some have outright swung at me and my partners. We do what we need to do for our safety and others; including the shoplifter.

Edit: What a terrible title. They certainly are not customers if they are shoplifting. They are criminals.

You contradicted yourself. You first state "any force used to detain a shoplifter must be reasonable and just." Then you go on to state that loss prevention can use "any force necessary to keep you there." Make up your mind because tackling someone just because they're allegedly shoplifting does NOT constitute "reasonable force."

If you were attacked while "attempting to detain someone," it's because the individual(s) you were trying to detain acted in SELF-DEFENSE. You have no right to lay hands on anyone, period. There are no "merchant statute laws" which give you the authority to detain people; what you're referring to is called shopkeeper's privilege and is a common law principle.

As a rent-a-cop, you have no special authority to lay hands on people.

 

[MarcustheGreat]

Yes, they can, but they need to be able to back up their detainment with proof of illegal activity. My cousin has been head of security at several retail stores. She's sprinted out into the parking lot, tackled a guy resulting in his broken arm, got punched in the face, kicked his ass in return, and DRAGGED him back into the store to call the police.

He went to jail for shoplifting and assault because she had him on video doing so.

Like anyone believes your FEMALE cousin tackled a grown man and dragged him back into the store. Even if what you stated was true (which it's not), it's still 100% illegal. Someone defending themselves against an overly aggressive rent-a-cop constitutes self-defense.

 

[MarcustheGreat]

bolded the important parts. security employees are trained for that specific purpose, they are not standard employees. i did the plain clothes thing for Kmart a long time ago. i was licensed and bonded by the fed govt to carry a weapon and all. under that umbrella, security employees can tag your ass and put you in a room until the cops get there. IF you resist. they can not do "whatever is necessary" tho, that leaves all kinds of room for overzealous guards to beat the holy hell out of someone. no, i wasnt allowed to carry a weapon while doing security for Kmart. that was for a security gig at federal buildings.

Security guards *are* standard employees. They have no more power than the average private property representative; most places don't even require guard cards. But keep pretending as if you have some sort of special authority when you're nothing more than a wannabe cop.

 

[Newbian]

 

[Captante]

Like anyone believes your FEMALE cousin tackled a grown man and dragged him back into the store. Even if what you stated was true (which it's not), it's still 100% illegal. Someone defending themselves against an overly aggressive rent-a-cop constitutes self-defense.

Security guards *are* standard employees. They have no more power than the average private property representative; most places don't even require guard cards. But keep pretending as if you have some sort of special authority when you're nothing more than a wannabe cop.

TL: DR

And WWYBYWB?

 

[Zorba]

Just realized this was a necro

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Without reading the full thread, I have some knowledge in this subject. Depends on the State.
First real(ish) job was with Jordan Marsh, an old school now out of business retailer in the Northeast. They actually had (I forgot what they called it) limited Sheriff powers, like the Senior Security people could go to peoples houses who had past due credit card bills or were suspected of theft. The company absolutely had the right to hold people for the police. While I worked there I heard the older stores in Boston and Squantum(?) at one time actually had jail cells to put people in while the police arrive. They were decommissioned before I was working there.
This stuff never happened during my tenure but I know it did happen in the 80s.
Policy wise I am not sure if they’d hold someone who was putting up a fight, sort of doubt they did. I know they were instructed only to leave the door to get a description of the car.

 

[MarcustheGreat]

[deleted]

 

[MarcustheGreat]

Without reading the full thread, I have some knowledge in this subject. Depends on the State.
First real(ish) job was with Jordan Marsh, an old school now out of business retailer in the Northeast. They actually had (I forgot what they called it) limited Sheriff powers, like the Senior Security people could go to peoples houses who had past due credit card bills or were suspected of theft. The company absolutely had the right to hold people for the police. While I worked there I heard the older stores in Boston and Squantum(?) at one time actually had jail cells to put people in while the police arrive. They were decommissioned before I was working there.
This stuff never happened during my tenure but I know it did happen in the 80s.
Policy wise I am not sure if they’d hold someone who was putting up a fight, sort of doubt they did. I know they were instructed only to leave the door to get a description of the car.

They had "limited Sheriff powers" in their own minds. Only sworn law enforcement can enter the private residences of suspected thieves. Though I suppose one CAN obtain "limited Sheriff powers" by paying off someone in the Sheriff's Department. Happens more often than you think.

As for "holding people for the police," that's a common law principle known as shopkeeper's privilege and can only occur if you have more than a hundred percent proof that a crime was committed. Even then, using it for misdemeanor shoplifting is a gray area. The spirit of the law only allows this "privilege" to be used for felonies.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

They had "limited Sheriff powers" in their own minds. Only sworn law enforcement can enter the private residences of suspected thieves. Though I suppose one CAN obtain "limited Sheriff powers" by paying off someone in the Sheriff's Department. Happens more often than you think.

As for "holding people for the police," that's a common law principle known as shopkeeper's privilege and can only occur if you have more than a hundred percent proof that a crime was committed. Even then, using it for misdemeanor shoplifting is a gray area. The spirit of the law only allows this "privilege" to be used for felonies.

no I am serious, they were knocking on doors before my tenure but there was something in the Boston Globe about them doing so in theearly to mid 80s
Keep in mind they were among the first large retailers ever.
I don't want to pay to search the Boston Globe Archives but here is a google result.
Also this power may have been within x number of feet or blocks or something. My memory is foggy.

Google search headline article is behind a paywall
Mar 13, 1980 — Johnson also said Martino, of Beverly Hills, had $5000 in cash at the time of his arrest by Jordan Marsh security officers in Framingham.

snippets for free Boston Globe Archive:
Boston Globe
January 22, 1990

LIFE IS TOUGH AT JORDAN'S

Author: Bella English, Globe Staff
Edition: THIRD
Section: METRO
Page: 13

Index Terms:
NAME-JORDAN MARSH
BUSINESS
CONSUMER
BEHAVIOR
Article Text:

Three tales, courtesy of Jordan Marsh, your "Living The Good Life" store.

Tale No. 1:
Emily Herzig thought she was being mugged when three men surrounded her outside the Jordan Marsh at Downtown Crossing and accused her of stealing the very coat she had paid for -- with her credit card -- two months earlier.
They confiscated the coat, put her in a holding cell and chained her, via steel links, to the wall. "They went through my briefcase and asked me where I kept my needles hidden," Herzig, a paralegal, said. "They told me I didn't look like a prostitute, who was my pimp?"
She tried to show them that the coat had been visibly altered to fit her 5- foot-2-inch frame, and that her cat had scratched a pick in the lapel.
When she asked to go to the bathroom, they led her handcuffed through the store and freed only one hand so she could go. She and another shoplifting suspect were handcuffed together and taken to the police station. After making bail, she took a bus home to Lynn wearing her silk dress and sweater in the cold November air because they still had her coat.
At the trial, her lawyer, Paul Collier, produced a receipt showing that she had charged the coat weeks earlier. The seamstress who had altered the coat was there as a witness, as was her supervising attorney, who had sent her on an assignment that morning wearing the coat in question.
The judge told the prosecutor: "You can't prosecute a woman for stealing a coat that she bought and paid for." Case closed.
Meanwhile, Herzig, 25, developed a case of shingles, which her doctor believes was related to the traumatic incident. "I had a lot of pain and didn't sleep for weeks afterward," she said. She is suing the store for wrongful imprisonment, assault and battery, malicious prosecution, infliction of emotional distress, defamation and violation of civil rights. (I'd throw in a "going-to-the-bathroom-while-handcuffed" charge, too).
The coat hangs in her closet. "It was the first coat I'd ever bought myself, but I could never wear it again," she said.

Tale No. 2:
James Armistead entered the same Jordan Marsh store on Nov. 29 to return a plate that had been given to him. He received a credit slip for $140, bought two bottles of cologne with the credit and was issued a new slip.
He then headed to men's clothing to try on some pants. Two security guards apprehended him and, according to his court complaint, twisted his wrist, stating he was under arrest for stealing a candle -- and the very plate that he had returned. They claimed the candle was in Armistead's knapsack; he says it was in plain view in his hands.
Armistead protested the treatment and told them he had AIDS. According to Armistead's civil complaint, the guards sprayed the knapsack with disinfectant and rifled through it. They allegedly called him a "lovely human," wrote "FAGS DIE" on an AIDS pamphlet in his bag and threatened to kill him and stuff him in a dumpster before he spread AIDS. Armistead said one of the guards blew kisses at him and neither would give him his medicine.
Finally, they told him they'd drop the charges regarding the plate -- a clerk had vouched for its return -- if he'd sign papers admitting that he had created a disturbance and promising not to enter the store for three years. Armistead protested signing the papers, but said he did so after being told he couldn't leave otherwise.
He will be arraigned this week for allegedly stealing the candle. Meanwhile, he has filed a lawsuit charging that his civil rights were violated and seeking damages for humiliation, insult and indignity, severe emotional distress, bodily injury and medical expenses.

Tale No. 3:
Robert Brophy claims he was assaulted and harassed by security guards as he was trying on sample eyeliner. Brophy charges that the guards twisted his arms behind his back, kneed him in the chest, forced him to the . ground and handcuffed him, calling him "lovely human" and "homo."
He also alleges they punched him and pushed him face-first into metal swinging doors, resulting in a lacerated lip and broken tooth, which required a root canal and new crown.
Jordan Marsh, which initially claimed Brophy had threatened the guards, dropped its charges against him. Brophy has filed his own assault and battery charge against the store, along with civil rights violations, false imprisonment and negligence.
Robert Gottlieb, senior vice president, would not comment on the apparent problems with its security force.

Jordan Marsh. Living The Good Life.

Memo:
BELLA ENGLISH



I remember that Bob Gottlieb name, I may have met him or worked in Auburndale with him.