Can Sortition Help "Fix" Our Damaged Political System?

[Indus]

No the only solution is a divorce and moving on.

 

[nickqt]

We can barely get ranked choice voting implemented and RadicalIndependent™ is essentially arguing we just need to throw away the US Constitution and then we're fixed.

Yikes.

This is the most roundabout way to scream BothSidesDoIt™.

 

[Greenman]

'No one actually reading their bills' definitely applies to the Rs, it's the party of attaching their names to lobbyist/interest group written bills and handing them in relatively unaltered, providing the other side with copies (featuring indecipherable handwritten edits maybe) mere hours before the vote. The measure of "worse" seems difficult to take you seriously over when it's mainly one party who keeps trying to pass blatantly un-constitutional laws.

I can provide you examples of this. Can you provide me examples of the Dems doing similar to support your BothSides attempt?

Just a little hypersensitive there Scooter.

 

[kage69]

Just a little hypersensitive there Scooter.

Not at all, but I am definitely getting a lil tired of lazy posters acting obtuse with ridiculous BothSides horseshit.

I'd prefer you to have a little dignity, maybe even back up your positions with something other than feels. Yeah, I'm weird like that.

 

[Greenman]

Not at all, but I am definitely getting a lil tired of lazy posters acting obtuse with ridiculous BothSides horseshit.

I'd prefer you to have a little dignity, maybe even back up your positions with something other than feels. Yeah, I'm weird like that.

Why on earth would I attempt to prove anything to you? Just so we're very clear, your want's, needs, desires and opinions, are less important to me than the brand of plastic wrap I use. And I don't know what brand of plastic wrap I use.
This place is entertainment, it's amusing, what it will never be for me is work. That said, if you'd like to put together a list of all the evil republican's that you can prove don't read the laws they enact, I'd be delighted to skim it.

 

[VW MAN]

Why on earth would I attempt to prove anything to you? Just so we're very clear, your want's, needs, desires and opinions, are less important to me than the brand of plastic wrap I use. And I don't know what brand of plastic wrap I use.
This place is entertainment, it's amusing, what it will never be for me is work. That said, if you'd like to put together a list of all the evil republican's that you can prove don't read the laws they enact, I'd be delighted to skim it.

The commentary from the willful low information republican is hilarious. Never ever learn anything more then what you already know...you might hurt yourself.

 

[HomerJS]

I don't know about turning over our entire system of government to this method but I always thought there are certain functions that should be decided by citizen committees.

Example: Politicians should NEVER be in the position to vote themselves raises. Also ethical violations should be adjudicated by these committees.

We can treat it like jury service.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Why on earth would I attempt to prove anything to you? Just so we're very clear, your want's, needs, desires and opinions, are less important to me than the brand of plastic wrap I use. And I don't know what brand of plastic wrap I use.
This place is entertainment, it's amusing, what it will never be for me is work. That said, if you'd like to put together a list of all the evil republican's that you can prove don't read the laws they enact, I'd be delighted to skim it.

Somebody recently offered a suggestion: If you don't know what's going on, refrain from posting. Sounded like good advice.

 

[dank69]

Why on earth would I attempt to prove anything to you? Just so we're very clear, your want's, needs, desires and opinions, are less important to me than the brand of plastic wrap I use. And I don't know what brand of plastic wrap I use.
This place is entertainment, it's amusing, what it will never be for me is work. That said, if you'd like to put together a list of all the evil republican's that you can prove don't read the laws they enact, I'd be delighted to skim it.

Right, this is all a joke to you, but when people treat you like the joke you are, you cry about persecution.

 

[kage69]

Why on earth would I attempt to prove anything to you? Just so we're very clear, your want's, needs, desires and opinions, are less important to me than the brand of plastic wrap I use. And I don't know what brand of plastic wrap I use.

Always amuses me how hostile your kind is to proving themselves not to be full of shit. Maybe next time end with "I don't really know though, pure feels on my part." Should cut down on the requests for elaboration you seem to dislike.

This place is entertainment, it's amusing, what it will never be for me is work. That said, if you'd like to put together a list of all the evil republican's that you can prove don't read the laws they enact, I'd be delighted to skim it.

You made a claim and have been asked to substantiate it. It's really a pity you still don't get how this works. Sad actually.

 

[pmv]

I don't know about turning over our entire system of government to this method but I always thought there are certain functions that should be decided by citizen committees.

Example: Politicians should NEVER be in the position to vote themselves raises. Also ethical violations should be adjudicated by these committees.

We can treat it like jury service.

Dare one suggest that drawing up electoral districts also falls into that category?

Still questionable whether a 'randomly selected group' would be the best way to do it - it probably needs some degree of education and consistency in approach. But again, as with politicians' pay, it seems like a situation where it could hardly be worse than having it controlled by politicians themselves.

 

[fskimospy]

Dare one suggest that drawing up electoral districts also falls into that category?

Still questionable whether a 'randomly selected group' would be the best way to do it - it probably needs some degree of education and consistency in approach. But again, as with politicians' pay, it seems like a situation where it could hardly be worse than having it controlled by politicians themselves.

The easiest way would be to eliminate districts entirely. There's no requirement for them in the Constitution and you could just do a proportional representation model.

 

[kage69]

The easiest way would be to eliminate districts entirely. There's no requirement for them in the Constitution and you could just do a proportional representation model.

This is what I've been responding with when I get the standard 'there's no way to remove bias from district creation!' excuses. Things need to be simplified, not replaced with a different mess.

Stuff like this has to end.

 

[dank69]

The easiest way would be to eliminate districts entirely. There's no requirement for them in the Constitution and you could just do a proportional representation model.

While we're at it, increase the number of representatives and move to a virtual model (zoom or whatever) instead of requiring all the travel.

 

[fskimospy]

This is what I've been responding with when I get the standard 'there's no way to remove bias from district creation!' excuses. Things need to be simplified, not replaced with a different mess.

Stuff like this has to end.

View attachment 47622

Yeah, there’s this idea that districts allow the representative to respond directly to local issues but in reality there are way too many people per district for this to be anything more than a patronage scheme.

 

[pmv]

The easiest way would be to eliminate districts entirely. There's no requirement for them in the Constitution and you could just do a proportional representation model.

The truth is I don't understand the details of the US system sufficiently to have come to that conclusion, but yeah, sounds as if that would work as well. Here, though, the argument for having 'single member constituencies' is so that individual voters have a named individual representative associated with their local area that they can pester with their problems. Don't know if that is the case with the US system.

 

[fskimospy]

The truth is I don't understand the details of the US system sufficiently to have come to that conclusion, but yeah, sounds as if that would work as well. Here, though, the argument for having 'single member constituencies' is so that individual voters have a named individual representative associated with their local area that they can pester with their problems. Don't know if that is the case with the US system.

That is technically the case but as each representative has up to about 700,000 constituents I’m not convinced that’s really a thing.

I know that from the one time I had an issue my representative could have possibly helped with her office did nothing.

 

[HomerJS]

Dare one suggest that drawing up electoral districts also falls into that category?

Still questionable whether a 'randomly selected group' would be the best way to do it - it probably needs some degree of education and consistency in approach. But again, as with politicians' pay, it seems like a situation where it could hardly be worse than having it controlled by politicians themselves.

Absolutely. You can get non-partisan companies with statisticians who could generate a few scenarios and the committee would select one.

 

[HomerJS]

Dare one suggest that drawing up electoral districts also falls into that category?

Still questionable whether a 'randomly selected group' would be the best way to do it - it probably needs some degree of education and consistency in approach. But again, as with politicians' pay, it seems like a situation where it could hardly be worse than having it controlled by politicians themselves.

In fact I'll start a list of tasks this citizen committee would be assigned

Approve congressional district maps
Congressional raise requests.

Everyone please suggest other items.

 

[fskimospy]

In fact I'll start a list of tasks this citizen committee would be assigned

Approve congressional district maps
Congressional raise requests.

Everyone please suggest other items.

Are congressional raises really something people need to worry about? Congressmen make $175k a year, which seems perfectly reasonable to me.

You don’t get rich in office from your salary, you get it through shady deals and/or patronage from rich donors once you’re out of office. Putting further restrictions on salary just makes shady deals more attractive.

 

[pmv]

While we're at it, increase the number of representatives and move to a virtual model (zoom or whatever) instead of requiring all the travel.

Would increasing the number of representatives in itself reduce the motivation for, and effectiveness of, gerrymandering? Seems as if, if you had more, smaller, districts, things would tend to even-out, and the scope for cunningly-designed districts would be diminished.

 

[dank69]

Would increasing the number of representatives in itself reduce the motivation for, and effectiveness of, gerrymandering? Seems as if, if you had more, smaller, districts, things would tend to even-out, and the scope for cunningly-designed districts would be diminished.

Probably, but eliminating districts altogether still seems like the better option.

 

[HomerJS]

Are congressional raises really something people need to worry about? Congressmen make $175k a year, which seems perfectly reasonable to me.

You don’t get rich in office from your salary, you get it through shady deals and/or patronage from rich donors once you’re out of office. Putting further restrictions on salary just makes shady deals more attractive.

Yes. Name one other profession where you vote your own raises. It may sound trivial put it's a principled task.

As far as the shady deals and patronage I'm adding ethics review. They can't be trusted to police themselves.

So far we have ...

Approve congressional district maps
Congressional raise requests.
Ethics violations review

 

[fskimospy]

Probably, but eliminating districts altogether still seems like the better option.

Would also be something easily done on a federal level instead of state by state. This is another real problem with gerrymandering. For good governance reasons a lot of blue states have already made redistricting non-partisan, but very few red states have. This would even the playing field.

There is of course still the issue of state legislatures which in cases like Wisconsin are literally no longer democracies, but I guess that’s a problem for another day.

 

[fskimospy]

Yes. Name one other profession where you vote your own raises. It may sound trivial put it's a principled task.

I mean I guess, it just seems like we have much bigger fish to fry. (Although I categorically oppose all citizens commissions anyway)