My statement can't be refuted. It happened here and in Britain, with only a few differences to what I said. And if that system had been given more time to develop it would had only worsened.
Originally posted by: eigen
I in no way see how the above scenario is the outcome of a capitalist system. However, in your dystopian capitalist worldview at least there is no coercion. However in your socialist/mixed system there is coercion on a daily basis. Remeber live free or die "Give me liberty or give me death" Some of us believe it.
As far as refuting your statement I am not an economist and so I will refer you to those more qualified than myself. writings by the following would be a place to start (they are my favs :thumbsup
Murray Rothbard
Ludwig Mises
Socialists want to live free from capitalistic oppression. Many socialists have died for their idea of freedom.
Definitely.
People often forget that the Manifesto was written back in the 1850s(I think it was published in 53), when it was either be born rich and live a life of luxury or work in a factory all day long, barely making a livable wage with your entire family working with you.
What, there was no God under Communism only the state.
What was that Reagan Joke about God and potatoes ?
Originally posted by: loki8481
me neither, but I guess that's why I'm a communist at heart
I think that some people *coughprotestants* are raised to believe that more is always better.
fortunately, my parents are both agnostic, communist hippies
According to your profile I notice you live in the United States.
Living a much higher standard of living than you would living in a communist run country.
Talk about hypocrysy.
No, many communist countries don't have religion. I was merely pointing out that most (true) religious people would agree with all other features of communism. It would be foolish to think that Jesus was not a communist type of personality and I'm not even a Christian.
communal living by choice is something completely different from being slaves to the government.
One of the reasons why religion is frowned upon by Communists is the fact that the Catholic church at one point in time was actually the biggest land owner and the wealthiest institution around in Europe. The Catholic church had a vast amount of power over the common people as well.
Also NAZI Germany was a socialist run state. While the NAZI government controlled the main industrial industries they still allowed private firms to work within and outside of government controlled industries. Porsche and Volkswagen were two of many privately own companies that enjoyed a lot of work orders from the NAZI government. In fact Porsche was given a favored status within the NAZI regime because their owners were good friends with high ranking NAZI officials. So in socialism the economy is controlled very closely by the government but private companies are still allowed to operate within the confines of this system. It's what some call a managed economy which was at one point in Europe seen as a model to a bright future when compared to the problems people saw and felt with un-restricted pure capitalism during the industrial revolution.
You have to remember that at the time there were no checks and balances in place to protect the economies of Europe when pure capitalism was tried out. So many countries did end up with economic problems because they did not know how to exactly implement capitalism and still protect their economies from the up's and down's you see in a capitalist economy. In our country we have certain checks and balances to protect us from events like the crash of the stock market in 1929 along with other prior events that at one time gave capitalism a black eye.
Funny thing is that most hardcore socialist view communism as a perversion of their ideals. The writer George Orwell was a democratic socialist and he in fact wrote the book "1984" as a attack against communism and what he perceived as a selling out of the values and ideals that the democratic socialists wanted. What's even more amazing is that most of the stuff he wrote about in the book "1984" actually was taking place in Stalinist Russia prior to the book coming out ! At the time that this book did come out ( 1949 ) people still did not know anything about the horrors of Stalinist Russia. The world did not find out about the horrors of the Stalinist Regime in Russia until 20 years after Stalin's death ! Also as Hitler and his NAZI members also hated and loathed communism as well but they were what we call nationalist socialists.
Also NAZI Germany was a socialist run state. While the NAZI government controlled the main industrial industries they still allowed private firms to work within and outside of government controlled industries. Porsche and Volkswagen were two of many privately own companies that enjoyed a lot of work orders from the NAZI government. In fact Porsche was given a favored status within the NAZI regime because their owners were good friends with high ranking NAZI officials. So in socialism the economy is controlled very closely by the government but private companies are still allowed to operate within the confines of this system. It's what some call a managed economy which was at one point in Europe seen as a model to a bright future when compared to the problems people saw and felt with un-restricted pure capitalism during the industrial revolution.
You have to remember that at the time there were no checks and balances in place to protect the economies of Europe when pure capitalism was tried out. So many countries did end up with economic problems because they did not know how to exactly implement capitalism and still protect their economies from the up's and down's you see in a capitalist economy. In our country we have certain checks and balances to protect us from events like the crash of the stock market in 1929 along with other prior events that at one time gave capitalism a black eye.
Funny thing is that most hardcore socialist view communism as a perversion of their ideals. The writer George Orwell was a democratic socialist and he in fact wrote the book "1984" as a attack against communism and what he perceived as a selling out of the values and ideals that the democratic socialists wanted. What's even more amazing is that most of the stuff he wrote about in the book "1984" actually was taking place in Stalinist Russia prior to the book coming out ! At the time that this book did come out ( 1949 ) people still did not know anything about the horrors of Stalinist Russia. The world did not find out about the horrors of the Stalinist Regime in Russia until 20 years after Stalin's death ! Also as Hitler and his NAZI members also hated and loathed communism as well but they were what we call nationalist socialists.
Socialism = What liberals THINK they want.
Communism = What liberals actually get when they try to implement socialism.
Communism = What liberals actually get when they try to implement socialism.
europe around the end of 19th start of 20th century, 8 year olds working 15 hrs a day to get enough money to pay for food on the table from the factory owned shops while living with 15 on a 15 by 15 feet house owned by the factory.
the rich OWNED the poor, THAT is liberalism/capitalism in it's purest form, and that is where marx and all communists/socialists protested against.
average life expectancy here for the rich was around 60 to 70 for teh poor it was 30 at most (tuberculosis and dustlung being most common cause of death) I suggest you check the backgrounds of where ideas came from, neither pure socialism nor liberalism are workable imho, a balance between the two are the only way you can have people earning money and at the same time prevent people from totally falling out of the boat, I suggest you look into the numbers of homeless and average wages and such, the U.S. is not the rich country it thinks it is, it has a very rich population, but that's countred by a huge number of poor people, from which the rich essentially leech. I'm not saying it's much better overhere, I'm just stating that you need to look around and see what is going on around you.
First, there are many gradations of both socialism and communism. Having said that, in pure communism (this is Marxist), all the means of production are owned communally by the proliteriate and the state's only function is as a coordinator to make sure the supplies go where they are needed. That is to say among the many groups of people producing things in a communist society, there could be a group of people who are shoemakers and work in their own shoemaking factory and there could be another group of people who make fine leather from cows and who raise the cows on their farms. Now, in pure, Marxist communism, it would be a function of the state to regulate the amount of leather that goes from the leather-makers to the shoemakers and then also regulate the distribution of shoes across the entire population. If everything works out well, then the state ensures that all raw materials get to production facilities and the produced goods are distributed equally across the entire population. There is no need for money as everyone produces what they can and recieves an equal share. Sidenote: The best critique of this I have heard is that since the good must be moved from place to place, either you have to pay people to move the goods, or you forcibly coerce them to move the goods, both of which violate Marx's idea of communism (that money should not be involved and people should not be coerced into working). Problems also arise is someone refuses to work, but still demands an equal cut of the pie.
In Socialism, where many gradations exist, there is some degree of central planning and government ownership of industries. Beyond that, socialism differs greatly depending on who you ask. For some, socialism is an economic system that establishes an economic saftey net that ensures the economically worst off can still live modestly. For others, socialism is communism with a government buerocracy in order to protect rights and frredoms.
In Socialism, where many gradations exist, there is some degree of central planning and government ownership of industries. Beyond that, socialism differs greatly depending on who you ask. For some, socialism is an economic system that establishes an economic saftey net that ensures the economically worst off can still live modestly. For others, socialism is communism with a government buerocracy in order to protect rights and frredoms.
Just to set the record straigth as somebody else made the claim that Nazism was a socialist movement earlier. Here are the key facts about Nazism (from Wikipedia):
Key elements of the Nazi ideology:
Racism
Especially anti-Semitism, which eventually culminated in the Holocaust.
The creation of a Herrenrasse by the Lebensborn (A department in the Third Reich)
Anti-Slavism
Belief in the superiority of the German and Aryan/Nordic races.
Euthanasia and Eugenics with respect to "Racial Hygiene"
Anti-Marxism, Anti-Communism , Anti-Bolshevism
The denial of democracy, with as a consequence the ending the existence of political parties, labour unions, and free press.
Führerprinzip/belief in the leader (Responsibility up the ranks, and authority down the ranks.)
Strong show of local culture.
Social Darwinism
Defence of Blood and Land (German: "Blut und Boden" - represented by the red and black colors in the Nazi flag)
"Lebensraumpolitik", "Lebensraum im Osten" (The creation of more living space for Germans)
Related to Fascism
Despite it's name Nazism is not a derivation of socialism.
biostud
Lifer
- Feb 27, 2003
- 19,731
- 6,808
- 136
The modern socialisms goal is to balance society, so that all has a certain minimum to live for. They believe in capitalism and democracy, but there must be some control of the moneyflow, otherwise we will end up with a VERY powerfull elite and a large part of the population living in poverty or on very low wages.
I don't know how the system function in US, and if it's different from state to state. Here's some examples of what the social democrats has done in Denmark, in the project called "the welfare state".
pos:
minimum wages for persons over 18: ~$14
free healthcare for everyone, except dentists, and you also have to pay for most medicine.
free education including university
if you cannot get a job you're guarrantied ~$1200 a month
neg:
max income tax +60% (progressive)
VAT %25
many working in public service sector, "not producing"
I don't know how the system function in US, and if it's different from state to state. Here's some examples of what the social democrats has done in Denmark, in the project called "the welfare state".
pos:
minimum wages for persons over 18: ~$14
free healthcare for everyone, except dentists, and you also have to pay for most medicine.
free education including university
if you cannot get a job you're guarrantied ~$1200 a month
neg:
max income tax +60% (progressive)
VAT %25
many working in public service sector, "not producing"
There has never actually been a real communist state, only states saying they are communist. However, the amount they adhere(d) to the theory isn't much closer than we do.
And why do you believe the condtion of the working class has improved since then. I imagine that you will maintain that unions,social welfare programs have been the casue. I believe the economic growth was the engine for higher wages , as it always will be IMHO, while incread technization
and idustrialization increased efficiency and the purchasing power of the working class.
Nevertheless do you believe the State has the right to coerce me into paying for social welfare programs.Do you believe the state has the right to coerce me into limiting my trading with other willing agents. Do you believe the state has the right to anything I or those I am in willing association with produce. Why.
here's a simple explanation ... about more than just those two
FEUDALISM: You have two cows. Your lord takes some of the milk.
PURE SOCIALISM: You have two cows. The government takes them and puts
them in a barn with everyone else's cows. You have to take care of
all the cows. The government gives you a glass of milk.
BUREAUCRATIC SOCIALISM: Your cows are cared for by former chicken
farmers. You have to take care of the chickens the government took
from the chicken farmers. The government gives you as much milk and
eggs the rules say you should need.
FASCISM: You have two cows. The government takes both, hires you to
take care of them, and sells you the milk.
PURE COMMUNISM: You share two cows with your neighbors. You and your
neighbors bicker about who has the most "ability" and who has the
most "need." Meanwhile, no one works, no one gets any milk, and the
cows drop dead of starvation.
RUSSIAN COMMUNISM: You have two cows. You take care of them but the
government takes all the milk. You steal back as much milk as you can
and sell it on the black market.
CAMBODIAN COMMUNISM: You have two cows. The government takes both and
shoots you.
PURE DEMOCRACY: You have two cows. Your neighbor decides who gets the
milk.
REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY: You have two cows. Your neighbors pick
someone to tell you who gets the milk.
BUREAUCRACY: You have two cows. At first the government regulates
what you can feed them and when you can milk them. Then it pays you
not to milk them. Then it takes both, shoots one, milks the other and
pours the milk down the drain. Then it requires you to fill out forms
accounting for the missing cows.
CAPITALISM: You don't have any cows. The bank will not lend you money
to buy cows because you don't have any cows to put up as collateral.
FEUDALISM: You have two cows. Your lord takes some of the milk.
PURE SOCIALISM: You have two cows. The government takes them and puts
them in a barn with everyone else's cows. You have to take care of
all the cows. The government gives you a glass of milk.
BUREAUCRATIC SOCIALISM: Your cows are cared for by former chicken
farmers. You have to take care of the chickens the government took
from the chicken farmers. The government gives you as much milk and
eggs the rules say you should need.
FASCISM: You have two cows. The government takes both, hires you to
take care of them, and sells you the milk.
PURE COMMUNISM: You share two cows with your neighbors. You and your
neighbors bicker about who has the most "ability" and who has the
most "need." Meanwhile, no one works, no one gets any milk, and the
cows drop dead of starvation.
RUSSIAN COMMUNISM: You have two cows. You take care of them but the
government takes all the milk. You steal back as much milk as you can
and sell it on the black market.
CAMBODIAN COMMUNISM: You have two cows. The government takes both and
shoots you.
PURE DEMOCRACY: You have two cows. Your neighbor decides who gets the
milk.
REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY: You have two cows. Your neighbors pick
someone to tell you who gets the milk.
BUREAUCRACY: You have two cows. At first the government regulates
what you can feed them and when you can milk them. Then it pays you
not to milk them. Then it takes both, shoots one, milks the other and
pours the milk down the drain. Then it requires you to fill out forms
accounting for the missing cows.
CAPITALISM: You don't have any cows. The bank will not lend you money
to buy cows because you don't have any cows to put up as collateral.
Life under communist regime:
6 :00 AM-7:30 AM
Every street coner has a big speaker will remind you : USA is an evil empire . A #1 enemy of communist
After that they will force you remember their Big fan communist leader . There leaders are god . You have to love them more then you love youself .
A Poet ( this guy is a big kiss ass) wrote a poem for Stalin (when this dude die):
Loving dad, loving mom loving wife . Loving them only a little one , Loving him ( stalin) a big ten .
And another pure communist fan poem ( same poet): Oh so sweet my son learn to speak . The first word he said:" stalin" ( yes the father so proud)
8:00 AM to 4:00 PM
Everybody go to work . Salary ( what is that???) . Every month goverment will give you . ( 1pound of sugar, 1 cartoon of cigarettes, 10 pounds of rice, 3/4 pound of porc or beef . If you work hard they will give you couple pair of shoe or shirt .
4:00 PM to 5:00 PM
Meeting at work
You must raise your complain. If you don't find any victime. Blame youself . You will cry and tell them you didn't do good job. Beg them give you a change so you can do better . If you found a victime . you could tell the boss that the dude went to restroom 3 times that days
In the reality nobody do a good job . Because doctor get the same pay as an assembly ( communist= every body are the same) accept you are communist member ( most of them are millionaires, yes us dollards)
5:00PM-8:00PM
Your most free time in the day
8:00 - 9:00
Meeting with Street leader ( every street has a leader) and street police ( every street has a police man in charge). You will do the same thing at work meaning find a victime . The son of house number zyx sing an amercan song . He had evil american mind ( Well he just sang an elvis song) . People will vote that the guy need to go to correction department ( Jail) . That night around 1:00PM , Police got into the house . After a short annouce" on behalf of communist goverment, we found guilty to mr xyz . If the guy lucky enough he could go back home after 5 years in correctional dept
9:00PM - 12:00AM
street guard
People will patrol the street make sure no thief
12:00 AM - 7:00 AM
Your most happy time in the days
Some words you must remember:
Citizens are the boss
communist member is the servant
Communist is the only partie to lead the coutry
Catholic, Buddhism ect... are superstitious , Communist leaders are the real god . US President picture also are real god (US dollar bill) hehehe
6 :00 AM-7:30 AM
Every street coner has a big speaker will remind you : USA is an evil empire . A #1 enemy of communist
After that they will force you remember their Big fan communist leader . There leaders are god . You have to love them more then you love youself .
A Poet ( this guy is a big kiss ass) wrote a poem for Stalin (when this dude die):
Loving dad, loving mom loving wife . Loving them only a little one , Loving him ( stalin) a big ten .
And another pure communist fan poem ( same poet): Oh so sweet my son learn to speak . The first word he said:" stalin" ( yes the father so proud)
8:00 AM to 4:00 PM
Everybody go to work . Salary ( what is that???) . Every month goverment will give you . ( 1pound of sugar, 1 cartoon of cigarettes, 10 pounds of rice, 3/4 pound of porc or beef . If you work hard they will give you couple pair of shoe or shirt .
4:00 PM to 5:00 PM
Meeting at work
You must raise your complain. If you don't find any victime. Blame youself . You will cry and tell them you didn't do good job. Beg them give you a change so you can do better . If you found a victime . you could tell the boss that the dude went to restroom 3 times that days
In the reality nobody do a good job . Because doctor get the same pay as an assembly ( communist= every body are the same) accept you are communist member ( most of them are millionaires, yes us dollards)
5:00PM-8:00PM
Your most free time in the day
8:00 - 9:00
Meeting with Street leader ( every street has a leader) and street police ( every street has a police man in charge). You will do the same thing at work meaning find a victime . The son of house number zyx sing an amercan song . He had evil american mind ( Well he just sang an elvis song) . People will vote that the guy need to go to correction department ( Jail) . That night around 1:00PM , Police got into the house . After a short annouce" on behalf of communist goverment, we found guilty to mr xyz . If the guy lucky enough he could go back home after 5 years in correctional dept
9:00PM - 12:00AM
street guard
People will patrol the street make sure no thief
12:00 AM - 7:00 AM
Your most happy time in the days
Some words you must remember:
Citizens are the boss
communist member is the servant
Communist is the only partie to lead the coutry
Catholic, Buddhism ect... are superstitious , Communist leaders are the real god . US President picture also are real god (US dollar bill) hehehe
Many Americans think that Sweden is extremely socialistic or even communistic even though it is one of the countries in Europe that is most capitalistic.
If Sweden is socialistic or communistic i would like to know what it takes to qualify as a socialist or communist country.
you forgot to mention 20 gallons of (nearly free) vodka so ppl can get sozzled after work... most communist regimes have relied on free-flowing liquor to drive their populations into a state of stupor ... after all it's quite difficult to read essays on freedom of speech when you can barely walk straight...
3chordcharlie
Diamond Member
- Mar 30, 2004
- 9,859
- 1
- 81
Regimes with leaders who are supposed to be thought of like gods are not communist; never have been.
That doesn't make them good or bad, and it doens't make communism good or bad. But it doesn't matter if the leaders call themselves communists in these states, because they aren't, they are dictators and/or oligopolists.
That doesn't make them good or bad, and it doens't make communism good or bad. But it doesn't matter if the leaders call themselves communists in these states, because they aren't, they are dictators and/or oligopolists.
socialism grew from the failures of marxist theory. there was dissension in the marxist ranks when
theory did not anticipate, or follow, the evolution of 19th century industrial societies.
eduard bernstein, engel's literary heir, was the great apostate who broke from marxian historical
inevitablities and suggested a constructive engagement with a capitalist society that marx thought
was doomed to explode.
lenin hated bernstein. rosa luxembourg hated bernstein. there were always intellectuals - not that
lenin was an intellectual - who agreed with marx's prognosis but not his diagnosis. yes, capitalism
is flawed, but not genetically so, and its certainly not programmed to metastasize into world revolution.
theory did not anticipate, or follow, the evolution of 19th century industrial societies.
eduard bernstein, engel's literary heir, was the great apostate who broke from marxian historical
inevitablities and suggested a constructive engagement with a capitalist society that marx thought
was doomed to explode.
lenin hated bernstein. rosa luxembourg hated bernstein. there were always intellectuals - not that
lenin was an intellectual - who agreed with marx's prognosis but not his diagnosis. yes, capitalism
is flawed, but not genetically so, and its certainly not programmed to metastasize into world revolution.
yhelothar
Lifer
- Dec 11, 2002
- 18,409
- 39
- 91
Wow the amount of misconception on governments is ridiculous!
You got it backwards. Communism has the biggest government. The government is the one that controls everything. There is a central planning agency that is made up of a small group of people that decides what is produced and how much is produced. In communism, everyone is paid EQUALLLY regardless of the amount of work you do. That's why communists never gets anything done well. They do a bad job, they get paid the same as someone that did a good job.
Also in order for communism to work, there must be unity. In order to get this unity, there must be mass government propoganda, such as in north korea where everyone is basically the same, because they do not have the freedom to think for themselves. Government must also be very close into the people's lives to know how much and what to produce.
In capitalism, there is a small government, businesses decide how much and what is being produced, and distributes the good according to the amount of work you do, which is exactly what you described as communism..
In socialism, government controls and owns the biggest industries, such as education, healthcare, and workers are given huge huge benefits. Rich are being heavily taxed, poor are given huge welfare checks. Most means of production are still privately owned.
Sweden used to be very socialistic. They used to have an 80% tax rate! This is until everyone started doing everything illegally and under the table to avoid the government taxing them, that they decided that 80% was too much and lowered it. So now Sweden shifted towards capitalism, but before the socialism was near communism.
nCred
Golden Member
- Oct 13, 2003
- 1,109
- 114
- 106
Sweden used to be very socialistic. They used to have an 80% tax rate! This is until everyone started doing everything illegally and under the table to avoid the government taxing them, that they decided that 80% was too much and lowered it. So now Sweden shifted towards capitalism, but before the socialism was near communism.[/quote]
ehh.. I´m from Sweden and we have never had a 80% tax rate, that´s just BS, and Sweden is a capitalistic country, those who say we´re communistic are idiots who knows nothing about this country or knows nothing about communism.
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 21K
-
Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread- Started by TheF34RChannel
- Replies: 23K
-
-
Facebook
Twitter