this isn't true: to be homosexual is to be one that engages in homosexual sex an intendeds to in the future;
you can be an overt homosexual, one who flaunts being homosexual, and you can be an over Christian, one who flaunts being a Christian; and you can be overtly both.
but neither means you where 'born' that way, even if you believe that God 'selects' who can be a Christian, and genetics 'select' who can be a homosexual.
"Can someone explain homosexuality to me?"
Yes, its quite simple. You have the answer yourself--assuming you are heterosexual.
You simply explain to yourself heterosexuality, then take that answer and apply it to your query--except it now applies to same-sex, rather than opposite sex.
You have now explained homosexuality without the help of anyone else. Congratulations.
Yes, its quite simple. You have the answer yourself--assuming you are heterosexual.
You simply explain to yourself heterosexuality, then take that answer and apply it to your query--except it now applies to same-sex, rather than opposite sex.
You have now explained homosexuality without the help of anyone else. Congratulations.
There is a biological reason for heterosexuality - procreation. What does that have to with homosexuality?
It's really a confusing subject. I have a homosexual friend and a homosexual uncle. In both cases I know of life events that could possibly have "caused" it. But they both seem happy in their relationships. My uncle has aids, though.
Originally posted by: FrodoB
There is a biological reason for heterosexuality - procreation. What does that have to with homosexuality?
It's really a confusing subject. I have a homosexual friend and a homosexual uncle. In both cases I know of life events that could possibly have "caused" it. But they both seem happy in their relationships. My uncle has aids, though.
Biology is a complex field, and procreation does not require heterosexual interaction in a great many species. In humans, which I assume is all you are interested in, it used to be accurate that heterosexual sex was defacto necessary, but it is no longer true.
People need food and water to survive but in today?s world one does not need to engage in intercourse to reproduce. New technologies are your friend.
But my answer to your question was aimed at the developmental/physiological/sociocultural/psychological perspectives of sexual behavior, and sexual orientation (in-other-words in total).
So, once again, to save you from the agony of confusion about other peoples sexual orientation that is not of your own --just analyse your own sexual experience, and then transfer that experience to a situation that is exactly the same (except for same sex). That is: emotional attraction, brain chemistry interactions, etc. all rolled into one.
Your (?) sexual system (heterosexuality) provides you with the most complete foundation for understanding homosexuality.
As I said before, biology is complex, and researchers can deconstruct different aspects of sexual phenomena--but no amount of deconstruction is of any use--unless you bring those scientific introspections back into the context of real biological systems.
That is a very technical way of saying that real biological systems, such as humans, are best understood in their totality.
Originally posted by: Tripleshot
Bingo. You are enlightened by your higher power. Keep the faith!
BTW, do you think gays would put themselves through all this grief if they felt they could be happy as a hetrosexual? Not a chance. They have no choice in who they are. God may have made them to test the faith of all of us. Sit back and watch who shows compassion and the Love of Christ as you see the the answers to your post. Then you will know, grasshopper.
Love of Christ? The only Christ I know of is, is the one written of from the book of Genesis to Revelations, The Bible. There is no other way to know Christ without scripture. In that same book it makes it very clear that homosexuality is not tolerated. Now while they'll burn in hell no faster than a liar, they will no doubt burn in hell. Sin is sin. And grace, mercy, and the forgiveness of those sins are made complete in Christ Jesus when we repent of those sins. Repent means to turn and go the other way. The Bible says that in the last days men will give way to itching ears. They will heap upon themselves teachers who will say the things they want to hear. They will trade the truth for a lie. Before you start talking about Christ Jesus you better read the book. Thats what its there for. You can't know the truth unless you read it. Paul even wrote in Corinthians that we are not to keep company with those who continue to practice sin. He writes when we knowingly sin we have no forgiveness and the death of Christ has no effect. All these churches allowing this and all other kinds of stuff to go on, ala the priests in the Catholic Church, are going to be in for a rude awakening when the sky cracks open. When you look at the state of the church, its a no wonder that Jesus said when he comes back the first to be judged will be those of the church. I think some folks need to read about Jesus before they start being a mouth piece for him. Just so you know, in the book of James he writes those who are so called and speak on behalf of Christ will be judged harsher. The Love of Christ is very available, when we repent from our sin. I think you need to read the book.
The idea that sexuality is a spectrum, not a black and white issue, is one that is well accepted in gender psychology, at least to my knowledge.
The Kinsey Institute at Indiana U has lots of interesting information on sexuality, although they have a horrid webpage at the moment. link
There is a good book called Queer Science: The use and abuse of research on homosexuality that is a compilation of current trends and thoughts about homosexuality in general. It is written from a scientific perspective. Here is a link to some comments from the MIT Cognet service. link
The basic summary that one finds in that text, as well as others that aren't pushing some kind of moral agenda, is that homosexuality is partly genetic, possibly influenced by in-utereo development, and partially environmental. I believe one current theory is that there is a genetic tendency for homosexual attraction, which has varying degree, and that environmental / developmental things will determine how this genetic predisposition plays out.
Regardless of the reasons for homosexuality, it reminds me of Gattaca (good movie) when people talk about genetic causes for this and that. I don't think something like sexual preference is as simple or black and white as being purely genetically based. Many many people are gender ambiguous, yet identify with heterosexual preferences, and many people are very strongly gendered and are homosexual. I actually talked to a kid once (I was an RA in college) who was curious if he was gay because his Dad turned out to be. He had no attraction to guys at all, but he thoght that since his Dad was gay (apparently not until recently did his father deal with this) that he should make sure he wasn't too before he went and got married or something. Sometimes, it's not that complicated. If it weren't for the moral stipulations about gender and sexual practice that our society promotes, people probably wouldn't think twice about being with a same or opposite sex person. Some would probably find it as acceptable to be with both as not, and most would probably choose opposite.
If ya take the God smack out of the equation, there isn't much reason to worry about it really. Commitment between people isn't only for making babies. We have long since evolved beyond living only for that purpose. We could have baby farms if we wanted to, ala Dune axlotl tanks, and not bother to procreate sexually at all. There are some rather large problems with using women as baby farms, but the point is that we don't need to boink one another to survive as a species. That taken, sexual expression becomes something more about intimacy and pleasure than about procreating. He11, it has been more about that for at least a hundred years in rich a$$ western society.
The simple explanations are probably as good as any. Take your sexual attraction and stick a same / opposite sex person in there. Then you can understand homo / heterosexuality. Leave the Christian morality to the Christians, and please Christian soldiers, keep your morality to your own peeps. Being Christian is certainly a choice one can make. Being gay is perty much not. It's easy to say that people should live a life of celibacy and fight their impulses. It's not so easy / realistic / healthy to do such things.
<edit> grammar check! </edit>
The Kinsey Institute at Indiana U has lots of interesting information on sexuality, although they have a horrid webpage at the moment. link
There is a good book called Queer Science: The use and abuse of research on homosexuality that is a compilation of current trends and thoughts about homosexuality in general. It is written from a scientific perspective. Here is a link to some comments from the MIT Cognet service. link
The basic summary that one finds in that text, as well as others that aren't pushing some kind of moral agenda, is that homosexuality is partly genetic, possibly influenced by in-utereo development, and partially environmental. I believe one current theory is that there is a genetic tendency for homosexual attraction, which has varying degree, and that environmental / developmental things will determine how this genetic predisposition plays out.
Regardless of the reasons for homosexuality, it reminds me of Gattaca (good movie) when people talk about genetic causes for this and that. I don't think something like sexual preference is as simple or black and white as being purely genetically based. Many many people are gender ambiguous, yet identify with heterosexual preferences, and many people are very strongly gendered and are homosexual. I actually talked to a kid once (I was an RA in college) who was curious if he was gay because his Dad turned out to be. He had no attraction to guys at all, but he thoght that since his Dad was gay (apparently not until recently did his father deal with this) that he should make sure he wasn't too before he went and got married or something. Sometimes, it's not that complicated. If it weren't for the moral stipulations about gender and sexual practice that our society promotes, people probably wouldn't think twice about being with a same or opposite sex person. Some would probably find it as acceptable to be with both as not, and most would probably choose opposite.
If ya take the God smack out of the equation, there isn't much reason to worry about it really. Commitment between people isn't only for making babies. We have long since evolved beyond living only for that purpose. We could have baby farms if we wanted to, ala Dune axlotl tanks, and not bother to procreate sexually at all. There are some rather large problems with using women as baby farms, but the point is that we don't need to boink one another to survive as a species. That taken, sexual expression becomes something more about intimacy and pleasure than about procreating. He11, it has been more about that for at least a hundred years in rich a$$ western society.
The simple explanations are probably as good as any. Take your sexual attraction and stick a same / opposite sex person in there. Then you can understand homo / heterosexuality. Leave the Christian morality to the Christians, and please Christian soldiers, keep your morality to your own peeps. Being Christian is certainly a choice one can make. Being gay is perty much not. It's easy to say that people should live a life of celibacy and fight their impulses. It's not so easy / realistic / healthy to do such things.
<edit> grammar check! </edit>
Well you could have added that those in for a surprise are the ones like him who think they are on the inside track and are the bigots of the corrupted instead. You will know them by their fruit he doesn't have any being as how he's bigoted toward them.
- Oct 9, 1999
- 46,873
- 10,668
- 147
Look two posts above yours, AEnigma, where the poster named classy confidentally explains how his Jesus presides over homosexuals burning in Hell (though no faster than the liars).
You know, I made the same mistake as you at first. I thought przero was saying that your post was classy. I still hope, for his sake, that that was what he meant, but I fear not.
My Jesus is about love and inclusion, but hey, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
Originally posted by: Perknose
Look two posts above yours, AEnigma, where the poster named classy confidentally explains how his Jesus presides over homosexuals burning in Hell (though no faster than the liars).
You know, I made the same mistake as you at first. I thought przero was saying that your post was classy. I still hope, for his sake, that that was what he meant, but I fear not.
My Jesus is about love and inclusion, but hey, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
That would sort of make sense now wouldn't it, since God is greater than anything we can imagine and a bigot is a whole lot less than loving and inclusive.
classy worships a god for whom black people and homosexuals are two of a kind and we know who that is. He's the god that plays one against the other in the hopes of capturing both. "Please Gods oh please make somebody more worthless than me." "WY SURE, CLASSY, WHO WOULD YOU LIKE THAT TO BE?" "Um, OK, God, now I'm real proud I'm a woman killing sex machine, so make it the f'ing Fs that are sooooooooooooo much less than little old N' me. Can you do that for me God, please, oh please? I'll pay you anything." "ANYTHING, CLASSY; WHY SURE; SOUNDS LIKE A FAUSTIAN BARGAIN TO ME!"
=============
Yea, sorry AEnigmaWI, I didn't mean to pop your bubble complement from przero there, but on the forums here, 'classy' is anything but.
heh now I understand.. thanks for pointing that out guys.. and yes classy is perty much one of those christian soldier people who needs to take a vacation.
Wow!
Very well said! I can not add to that (at this time, anyway). I wish you'd explain how it reminds you of Gattica though.
reminds me of Gattaca because:
Gattaca is about the struggle for someone who has been deemed genetically inferior for recognition and equal treatment amongst those who supposedly have staggering advantage over him for survival.
If gayness is completley genetic, and there were to be hintings about "correcting" it, it would create similar situations, where those that weren't "corrected" and still turened out gay were expected to be failures, treated as second-class, etc.. That's how the idea that it's genetic and the idea of being able to treat it remind me of Gattaca.
I don't really think that people would want all the gay in the world to die anyhow.. Who would design clothes and choreagraph dances ? (I am so kidding... before anyone gets insulted)
Gattaca is about the struggle for someone who has been deemed genetically inferior for recognition and equal treatment amongst those who supposedly have staggering advantage over him for survival.
If gayness is completley genetic, and there were to be hintings about "correcting" it, it would create similar situations, where those that weren't "corrected" and still turened out gay were expected to be failures, treated as second-class, etc.. That's how the idea that it's genetic and the idea of being able to treat it remind me of Gattaca.
I don't really think that people would want all the gay in the world to die anyhow.. Who would design clothes and choreagraph dances ? (I am so kidding... before anyone gets insulted)
Shuxclams
Diamond Member
- Oct 10, 1999
- 9,286
- 15
- 81
It was best explained to me like this. When I see a nice looking woman in a skimpy dress and she has great boobs I stare at her boobs and I get a certian feeling about what I am seeing.... When Homosexual Person see's someone of the same sex they get the same feeling I do only its not directed at the oppisate sex.
SHUX
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Perknose
Look two posts above yours, AEnigma, where the poster named classy confidentally explains how his Jesus presides over homosexuals burning in Hell (though no faster than the liars).
You know, I made the same mistake as you at first. I thought przero was saying that your post was classy. I still hope, for his sake, that that was what he meant, but I fear not.
My Jesus is about love and inclusion, but hey, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
That would sort of make sense now wouldn't it, since God is greater than anything we can imagine and a bigot is a whole lot less than loving and inclusive.
classy worships a god for whom black people and homosexuals are two of a kind and we know who that is. He's the god that plays one against the other in the hopes of capturing both. "Please Gods oh please make somebody more worthless than me." "WY SURE, CLASSY, WHO WOULD YOU LIKE THAT TO BE?" "Um, OK, God, now I'm real proud I'm a woman killing sex machine, so make it the f'ing Fs that are sooooooooooooo much less than little old N' me. Can you do that for me God, please, oh please? I'll pay you anything." "ANYTHING, CLASSY; WHY SURE; SOUNDS LIKE A FAUSTIAN BARGAIN TO ME!"
=============
Yea, sorry AEnigmaWI, I didn't mean to pop your bubble complement from przero there, but on the forums here, 'classy' is anything but.
Oh Moonpie, you are such a sad sad excuse for an excuse to breath air. Oh well. Look here Rosie, I did not give my opinion. Those are the facts according to the book that is the basis for the Christian belief. If you profess to be a Christian and yet declare God will accept the sinful behavior of anyone is either a lie or not according to scripture. I didn't write the book, I only stated what it says. Now if you got a problem with that then take up with the author of the book. I am sure he will be amused with your great wisdom and knowledge or lack there of. I would lean toward the latter. Hey how's the coming out been for ya? Oh and did you see that Mass. is going to ban gay marriage. You get the civil union thingy though. Hope you and your partner live happily everafter.
If you profess to be a Christian and yet declare God will accept the sinful behavior of anyone is either a lie or not according to scripture.
Assuming that your poor sentence structure carries the meaning I think it intended, I can only say gee, aren't you a smart fellow. In the first place we aren't talking about any sinner, we are talking about gays and as I said many times before God can't be a bigot so the scripture has to be wrong. Anybody who can think for him or her self can see that. But you're easy to fool because you don't think for yourself. "Well it's right here in the Bible in Black and white so it's got to be true. And of course it nice to have somebody to look down on when you feel as bad as you do. Here's your opinion of yourself. "Oh classy, you are such a sad sad excuse for an excuse to breath air." Just like the racists lied about blacks, but you bought that too.
Assuming that your poor sentence structure carries the meaning I think it intended, I can only say gee, aren't you a smart fellow. In the first place we aren't talking about any sinner, we are talking about gays and as I said many times before God can't be a bigot so the scripture has to be wrong. Anybody who can think for him or her self can see that. But you're easy to fool because you don't think for yourself. "Well it's right here in the Bible in Black and white so it's got to be true. And of course it nice to have somebody to look down on when you feel as bad as you do. Here's your opinion of yourself. "Oh classy, you are such a sad sad excuse for an excuse to breath air." Just like the racists lied about blacks, but you bought that too.
Every person feels like the worst person in the world. The real purpose of religion is to transcend that feeling through the realization that you are forgiven. There is a big difference between transcension and mouthing words. The actual use of religion is to pretend that you have been saved so you don't have to feel the real pain of that feeling of being worthless. There is nothing wrong with anybody, but you can live lifetimes and never meet somebody who knows it. And yes, we have completely different ideas about what it means to know. There is the saying and the knowing and the business of recognizing the fruit. What people do with fruit is put it on the cross. You are no exception.
LunarRay
Diamond Member
- Mar 2, 2003
- 9,993
- 1
- 76
Re: Nature v Nurture
I think for certain we are genetically predisposed to die. Beyond that, what genetics we each have coupled with the environment that we occupy and the dynamics therein order us to respond to stimuli in a somewhat similar manner for some and totally different for others where both exist in that specific environment at the same time.
A person has certain genetic traits or likes. For instance; some folks draw energy from being in a crowd - the center of attention so to speak - while others lose energy while in a crowd. (Extrovert v Introvert) Some folks have a hard time making a choice while others make them easily in the same store shopping for the same item... same environment but, different responses to the same or similar stimuli. The difference can be defined by the genetic makeup of the individual.
For the major personality types (See Kersey's "Please Understand Me") Gays and Heterosexuals have the same percentages for each type (INFP - ESTJ or some combination [See Jung]). So what makes Gays be gay when most folks are not. What is the difference? I suggest it is genetic.. that is chemical. I suggest everything that makes us function is the result of some chemistry. Chemistry and the environment.
Gay folks are Gay because they are genetically predisposed to be so and the environment they occupy enables them to exercise that 'need'. Heterosexuals are genetically predisposed to be heterosexual and the environment enables them to exercise those 'needs' as well.
With Gay folks the 'need' for love and companionship is best provided by who sates that stimuli. I suppose it could be someone of the opposite sex but mainly it is the same sex but, the who who ever it is must satisfy the stimuli.. the chemistry at play in the individual.
And that's my opinion!
I edit to add....I believe God created A man in his likeness, Adam. That we are all decendents of Noah and Mrs Noah.. And that even exact twins are in some manner different. Even if they are genetically the same they think differently... maybe not alot but at least a bit. They do so because they interact with the environment. No two people can be in the exact same environment at the exact same time, but even so it is not likely for one twin to be hetero and the other be homo sexual. Generally they are either both hetero or both homo sexual. If this is true it might suggest that the desire for same sex 'companionship' is driven by a genetically induced chemical combination not occuring to the same extent in those who prefer opposite sex 'companionship'.
I think for certain we are genetically predisposed to die. Beyond that, what genetics we each have coupled with the environment that we occupy and the dynamics therein order us to respond to stimuli in a somewhat similar manner for some and totally different for others where both exist in that specific environment at the same time.
A person has certain genetic traits or likes. For instance; some folks draw energy from being in a crowd - the center of attention so to speak - while others lose energy while in a crowd. (Extrovert v Introvert) Some folks have a hard time making a choice while others make them easily in the same store shopping for the same item... same environment but, different responses to the same or similar stimuli. The difference can be defined by the genetic makeup of the individual.
For the major personality types (See Kersey's "Please Understand Me") Gays and Heterosexuals have the same percentages for each type (INFP - ESTJ or some combination [See Jung]). So what makes Gays be gay when most folks are not. What is the difference? I suggest it is genetic.. that is chemical. I suggest everything that makes us function is the result of some chemistry. Chemistry and the environment.
Gay folks are Gay because they are genetically predisposed to be so and the environment they occupy enables them to exercise that 'need'. Heterosexuals are genetically predisposed to be heterosexual and the environment enables them to exercise those 'needs' as well.
With Gay folks the 'need' for love and companionship is best provided by who sates that stimuli. I suppose it could be someone of the opposite sex but mainly it is the same sex but, the who who ever it is must satisfy the stimuli.. the chemistry at play in the individual.
And that's my opinion!
I edit to add....I believe God created A man in his likeness, Adam. That we are all decendents of Noah and Mrs Noah.. And that even exact twins are in some manner different. Even if they are genetically the same they think differently... maybe not alot but at least a bit. They do so because they interact with the environment. No two people can be in the exact same environment at the exact same time, but even so it is not likely for one twin to be hetero and the other be homo sexual. Generally they are either both hetero or both homo sexual. If this is true it might suggest that the desire for same sex 'companionship' is driven by a genetically induced chemical combination not occuring to the same extent in those who prefer opposite sex 'companionship'.
Originally posted by: classy
Oh Moonpie, you are such a sad sad excuse for an excuse to breath air. Oh well. Look here Rosie, I did not give my opinion. Those are the facts according to the book that is the basis for the Christian belief. If you profess to be a Christian and yet declare God will accept the sinful behavior of anyone is either a lie or not according to scripture. I didn't write the book, I only stated what it says. Now if you got a problem with that then take up with the author of the book. I am sure he will be amused with your great wisdom and knowledge or lack there of. I would lean toward the latter. Hey how's the coming out been for ya? Oh and did you see that Mass. is going to ban gay marriage. You get the civil union thingy though. Hope you and your partner live happily everafter.
So, you know that the New Testament wasn't even BEGUN to be put into writing until several hundred years after Christ died, right? Prior to that it was all just word-of-mouth stuff. People going door-to-door, or telling stories at night or stuff like that. Ever play the game "Telephone" when you were little? Stories evolve, tiger. The Bible's got a lot of great guidance in it, but I don't believe that every word should be taken literally. If such a thing works for you, great, but don't push it on me.
As far as the attitudes about gay marriage, nobody has EVER been able to give me a half-way decent argument about how it would do damage to pretty much anything (except for homophobes' prejudices.)
And the idea that homosexuality is ok as long as you keep it private so as not to offend people is garbage. Plenty of people get offended by seeing ANY public display of affection. Also, that argument reminds me of all of the bigot jock meatheads in middle school who said "Nothin' wrong with gays as long as they don't come on to ME." As if every gay guy wants to screw EVERY MAN ON EARTH. Get over yourself, you're not that cute, and being a dork isn't sexy.
But seriously, I want to keep an open mind, and I've been searching the net for the past several hours, and I haven't yet seen an intelligent, non-religious argument that's opposed to gay marriages. Anybody got any links?
--Geeyoff
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