Can random molecular interactions create life?

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
9,634
0
0
I just read a mathematical treatment of this issue by a geophysist from Los Alamos:

Taking 10^80 as a generous estimate for the total number of atoms in the cosmos, 10^12 for a generous upper bound for the average number of interatomic interactions per second per atom, and 10^18 seconds (roughly 30 billion years) as an upper bound for the age of the universe, we get 10^110 as a very generous upper limit on the total number of ineratomic interactions which could have ever occured during the long cosmic history the evolutionist imagines. Now if we make the extremely generous assumption that each interatomic interaction always produces a unique molecule, then we conclude that no more than 10^110 unique molecules could have ever existed in the universe during it's entire history.

Now let's contemplate what is involved in demanding that a purely random process find a minimal set of about 1,000 protein molecules needed for the most primitive form of life. To simplify the problem dramatically, suppose somehow we already have found 999 of the 1,000 different proteins required and we need only to search for that final magic sequence of amino acids which gives us that last special protein. Let's restrict our consideration to the specific set of 20 amino acids found in living systems and ignore the hundred or so that are not. Let's also ignore the fact that only those with left-handed symmetry appear in life proteins. Let's also igonre the incredibly unfavorable chemical reaction kinetics involved in forming long peptide chains in any sort of plausible non-living chemical environment.

Let's merely focus on the task of obtaining a suitable sequence of amino acids that yields a 3D protein structure with some minmal degree of essential functionality. Various theoretical and experimental evidence indicates that in some average sense about half of the amino sites must be specified exactly. For a relatively short protein consisting of a chain of 200 amino acids, the number of random trials needed for a reasonable likelihood of hitting a useful sequence is then in the order of 20^100 (100 amino acid sites with 20 possible candidates at each site), or about 10^130 trials. This is a hundred billion times the upper bound we computed for the total number of molecules ever to exist in the history of the cosmos!!. No random process could ever hope to find even one such protein structure, much less the full set of roughly 1,000 needed in the simplest forms of life. It is therefore sheer irrationality for a person to believe random chemical interactions could ever identify a viable set of functional proteins out of the truly staggering number of candidate possibilities.

In the face of such stunningly unfavorable odds, how could any scientist with any sense of honesty appeal to chance interactions as the explanation for the complexity we observe in living system? To do so, with conscious awareness of these numbers, in my opinion represents a serious breach of scientific integrity. This line of argument applies, of course, not only to biogenesis but also to the issue of how a new gene/protein might arise in any sort of macroevolution process.
 

raptor13

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,719
0
76
It's unlikely that any particular person will ever win the lottery. Yet it happens.
 

Wallydraigle

Banned
Nov 27, 2000
10,754
1
0
If you subscribe to the theory that says that the timeline diverges for any possible outcome in the universe, then in some of those timelines life would have to arise in just such a way. The living things in that universe would no doubt marvel at the remarkable odds of their formation, yet be faced with the reality of their existence.
 

glen

Lifer
Apr 28, 2000
15,995
1
81
It is unlikely that molecules randomly collided to make life.
But, that isn't how we believe it started.
We assume some molecules with polar and non polar ends were created.
IF you have molecules with polar and non polar ends, they will form a ring in water.
This ring acts liek a membrane...
 

McPhreak

Diamond Member
Jul 28, 2000
3,808
1
0


<< It's unlikely that any particular person will ever win the lottery. Yet it happens. >>

 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
9,634
0
0
Look at the numbers again. The chances of randomly forming a short protein chain of 200 amino acids (10^130 trials) is just a tad bigger than winning the lottery!
 

McPhreak

Diamond Member
Jul 28, 2000
3,808
1
0


<< Look at the numbers again. The chances of randomly forming a short protein chain of 200 amino acids (10^130 trials) is just a tad bigger than winning the lottery! >>



The lottery thing simply serves as an example. Besides. much of the universe isn't based solely on random events. You can't simply add up the probability of separate random events occuring and apply it all to the universe. I'm sure it's a little more complicated than that.
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
9,634
0
0
Nobel Prize winner Francis Crick stated that the complexities of life could not "have arisen by random chance," but required a replication mechanism to perserve beneficial mutations as they occured. Aware of modern life's nearly infinte complexity, Crick then concluded that the earth was not old enough at 4 1/2 billion years to have had life gradually evolve completely on this planet. Rather than acknowledging a creator, he preferred the "directed panspermia" concept, which placed the origin of life long, long ago and far, far away on some other planet in some other galaxy.

It's interesting that in Crick's reasoning he starts with the impossibly improbable and ends with a fantastic imaginary world far away and long ago. Sufficient time and distance implicitly legitimize what otherwise would be impossibility.
 

McPhreak

Diamond Member
Jul 28, 2000
3,808
1
0


<< Nobel Prize winner Francis Crick stated that the complexities of life could not "have arisen by random chance," but required a replication mechanism to perserve beneficial mutations as they occured. Aware of modern life's nearly infinte complexity, Crick then concluded that the earth was not old enough at 4 1/2 billion years to have had life gradually evolve completely on this planet. Rather than acknowledging a creator, he preferred the "directed panspermia" concept, which placed the origin of life long, long ago and far, far away on some other planet in some other galaxy.

It's interesting that in Crick's reasoning he starts with the impossibly improbable and ends with a fantastic imaginary world far away and long ago. Sufficient time and distance implicitly legitimize what otherwise would be impossibility.
>>



Although most molecular biologists would probably agree with me that Crick isn't exactly the model scientist, what he mentions up until the "directed panspermia" as you've mentioned, is what I also believe.
 

Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
25,195
0
56
My favorite comment to irritate both sides of the fence, maybe god designed evolution:p & or arranged for that sequence of amino acids to line up just right...
 

McPhreak

Diamond Member
Jul 28, 2000
3,808
1
0


<< My favorite comment to irritate both sides of the fence, maybe god designed evolution:p & or arranged for that sequence of amino acids to line up just right... >>



I also believe what you're describing. If there is a God, perhaps he put things together and let them do their thing. I believe it's called the "clockmaker theory" even though it's not a theory.
 

Slacker

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
8,623
33
91
Can we conceive of the fact that there are things that we cannot conceive? Is it possible that we don't know everything? do we need to?
 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81
I'm sorry, what is the probability that man was created from dirt (was it?) and that women were created from a bone?




<< ends with a fantastic imaginary world far away and long ago >>



surely you are aware that there is a high chance that life did not begin on earth, but arrived here? NASA did an experiment where bacteria survived a space flight and there was that Mars asteriod in '96 with the bacteria on it, so I guess its not so fantastic after all.
 

Haircut

Platinum Member
Apr 23, 2000
2,248
0
0
I subscribe to the multiverse theory, therefore the anthropic principal states that we are able to question this fact because we are in one of the few universes that life actually did evolve in.

The other billions of universes where life didn't evolve don't have the chance to speculate therefore our decision is a bit biased.
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
9,634
0
0
CRICK'S ROCKET SPERMS

*Francis Crick received the Noble Prize for his discovery of the DNA molecule. In his 1981 book, Life Itself, he fills the first half of the book with reasons why life could not originate on our planet?and then he proceeds to suggest that it came from outer space on rockets!

"Crick . . proposed that life began somewhere else in the universe and evolved to a much higher technical level than is now present on earth. He next suggests these life forms are now sending rockets containing primitive life forms (perhaps bacteria or blue-green algae) throughout the universe, spreading the seeds of life hither and yonder. Crick even describes the rocket's design and postulates the conditions necessary for successful re-entry into our atmosphere."?Richard Tkachuck, book review, in Origins, Vol. 10, No. 2, 1983, p. 91.

"In Life Itself, a noted coauthor of the Watson-Crick model for DNA structure embraces an origins view called "Directed Panspermia," in which it is assumed that life was originally sent to earth from outer space! According to Crick, life evolved from nonlife on some other planet, starting with the spontaneous generation of bacteria and proceeding all the way to highly intelligent beings. These gifted individuals (about whom Crick says surprisingly little in the book) then sent our own bacterial ancestors here on an unmanned spacecraft.

"This means that Crick believes life has evolved twice?once from molecules to intelligent people somewhere else, and then again from bacteria to man on earth! He also holds that all this took place in about 9 billion years following a Big Bang."?George F. Howe, book review, in Creation Research Society Quarterly, December 1983, p. 190.

Since the Big Bang supposedly occurred 10 billion years ago (others say 15 billion), the rocket with the bacteria is supposed to have arrived here 6 billion years ago. It is wonderful how scientific an idea appears when you date it! But let us add a few more time spans: This rocket, traveling at a speed of 18,000 m.p.h., would take 5 months to travel to the sun and 115,000 years to reach the nearest star. How long would living creatures survive on such a trip? Their food, water, and air would be exhausted long before they reached their destination. The rocket ship would become a crematorium.

 

Wallydraigle

Banned
Nov 27, 2000
10,754
1
0


<< I'm sorry, what is the probability that man was created from dirt (was it?) and that women were created from a bone? >>



More Strawmen. No one brought fundamentalism into this conversation before you did.





<< surely you are aware that there is a high chance that life did not begin on earth, but arrived here? NASA did an experiment where bacteria survived a space flight and there was that Mars asteriod in '96 with the bacteria on it, so I guess its not so fantastic after all. >>



Surely you are aware that there is no real evidence that those structures in the asteriod are fossilized biological agents? The jury is still out, but many scientists are leaning toward non biological origins. In the space flight the bacteria were in sapce for a relatively short amount of time. If the original bacteria that seeded life on Earth had come from Mars, then the same time constraints would be in place, and if they had come from another solar system, they would have spent centuries or even millenia, or longer, out in the nothing of space. Is it possible, I don't know. But it's not the same thing as going to Mars and back.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,937
568
126


<< This is a hundred billion times the upper bound we computed for the total number of molecules ever to exist in the history of the cosmos!!. No random process could ever hope to find even one such protein structure, much less the full set of roughly 1,000 needed in the simplest forms of life. It is therefore sheer irrationality for a person to believe random chemical interactions could ever identify a viable set of functional proteins out of the truly staggering number of candidate possibilities. >>

See, here's the thing about 'probabilities': the chance event in question can strike at any time. If the odds of winning a lottery jackpot are 1 in 50 million, it is NOT true that 49,999,999 million losing draws must occur before someone can win. I may win the first time I play, or I may never win despite playing daily for a thousand years. That's the way it goes.

This permissive "theory" assumes the chance 'event' began with an organism on the order of the simplest procaryote, and calculates the probability that 'suddenly' there just appeared a 'living' organism where a second before there was not. I've never heard any scientist advance such a theory of how life began, so the entire model is founded upon strawman, or a false premise, take your pick.

IOW, the author is attempting to find the probability that I will win lottery...though I haven't even bought a ticket.
 

Wallydraigle

Banned
Nov 27, 2000
10,754
1
0


<< I subscribe to the multiverse theory, therefore the anthropic principal states that we are able to question this fact because we are in one of the few universes that life actually did evolve in.

The other billions of universes where life didn't evolve don't have the chance to speculate therefore our decision is a bit biased.
>>



That's the point I was getting at, but I don't know if I conveyed it properly. Like Dr. Starngelove said, "It's not only possible, but essential!":)

Of course there's not exactly a lot of evidence for the multiverse theory, but it is certainly possible;) It makes about as much sense as anything else I guess.
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
9,634
0
0
As you point out, the mathematical treatment put forth here is similar to calculating the odds of winning the lottery. The number of possible lottery combinations corresponds to the total number of protein structures (of an appropriate size range) that are possible to assemble from standard building blocks. The winning tickets correspond to the tiny sets of such proteins with the correct special properties from which a living organism, say a simple bacterium, can be successfully built. The maximum number of lottery tickets a person can buy corresponds to the maximum number of protein molecules that could have ever existed in the history of the cosmos.
 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81


<< More Strawmen. No one brought fundamentalism into this conversation before you did. >>



alright, alright, sorry about that. Let's forget it.


In fact I find that the multi (or infinite) universe theory the most likely too.

There was an article about it in Discover magazine a while ago. Not only are the chances of life forming small, but the chances of the conditions required for life (a certain amount of gravity etc, I rememver there were six such variables) are extremely small as well.

But if you have an infinte number of universes, then those chances aren't that bad. Plus, there is no reason to think ours would be the only universe out there.
 

Wallydraigle

Banned
Nov 27, 2000
10,754
1
0


<< But if you have an infinte number of universes, then those chances aren't that bad. Plus, there is no reason to think ours would be the only universe out there. >>



Not at all, in fact there would be an infinite number of universes with life in them. There would be an infinite number of universes that would look identical to our own, with maybe an atom or two out of place. Of course this has severe philosophical implications. Perhaps free will is more illusory that we generally believe.
 

Haircut

Platinum Member
Apr 23, 2000
2,248
0
0
I think that the multiverse idea has a very valid reason for existing. Feynman suggested that every particle takes every possible path (just some with a lot higher probabilities) when travelling from one location to another. Hence the reasoning behind Fenyman diagrams.

If we take this idea for every particle in the universe at every instant in time (Planck time) then we have an infinity of different outcomes at each step in time. Of course some will be a lot more likely than others, but there will be an infinite number of universes in existence so some will contain life. It just so happens that we are in one of the universes in which life has happened that we are able to comment on the fact.

Anyway, I must go now it's 3:30 am here and I can here the birds starting their dawn chorus. :Q
 

Wallydraigle

Banned
Nov 27, 2000
10,754
1
0
It seems about as likely as anything else, but I don't like what that would mean for us. In one sense we are still free to make our own decisions, meaning that nothing obstructs us from doing so, yet in another sense someone in some of the universes has to have all the really rotten things happening to them, because all things that can happen must. I've been spending some time thinking about determinism lately, and I've come to the conclusion that it's best not to think about it. If everything is determined for us I believe it is better to continue to live under the illusion of free will. But that's not really what this is about I guess;) Sorry for the rambling.
 

glen

Lifer
Apr 28, 2000
15,995
1
81
Riprorin,
long chain proteins didn't randomly form.
Mycels did, then membrains, you need to look at modern theories of how it started.