Can Free Will and God exsist?

[Vic]

Originally posted by: tellsek

Theological fatalism is a crutch for the weak minded. The argument in favor of it is itself a logical fallacy.

From the link it states that the argument is ONLY valid for passive foreknowledge and that the demise of free will would only logically come if God made His knowledge public in regard to the free will choice of individuals; this would therefore alter future free will, and make it an obligation.

However in the bible didn't jesus say to one of his apostles that he would deny him three times to the authorities before the next day. According to the arguments from your website this would invalidate free will, and if god could do that for any one person in any one instance, then he could do it to anyone at anytime making free will a deception.

The OP said "God", not Jesus. Who said that I believe that Jesus was God? Why do you assume that I believe so?

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: Trevelyan

Originally posted by: kogase

Originally posted by: GreatBarracuda

Originally posted by: kogase
This would also mean that God already knows whether you are going to hell or not, and that cannot be changed. So to tell you that you are able to go to heaven or hell is sort of pointless, as you aren't able to actually change that. God already knows the individual actions, and their eventual outcome...

True. God knows where you will end up: heaven or hell. But if He tells you that or you come to know about it in some way, then your life would be pointless and meaningless. But of course this doesn't happen. That is why you are free to make decisions based on your free will or god-given free will for those who believe in God.

Fascinating, isn't it? So one might say that if it is already known where I will go, i.e. heaven or hell, what's the point of life? Well, you don't know that, GOD does. Even if God doesn't know, it's still the same for you. You can't complain either way.

If you or anyone else is still unsatisfied, let me ask ... how would you feel if free will (as we know it now through this thread) was taken from you?

So it's all a matter of perception. My perceived free will and therefore my choice of going to heaven are all a sham, but I don't realize it... so ignorance is bliss. That's not the kind of state I want to live in. Of course, I won't have to, because I don't believe in a God at all.

Sure, a matter of perception I suppose you could say. But you will never have God's perception, so basically it's not just a matter of perception, but also a matter of reality.

For example, let's say you have an option to do 1 of 10 possible things. You can only do 1 of the 10 things, and that's it. So, the reality of the situation is that you will do only 1 thing, nothing more. You are limited in your choice. Does the fact that someone else already knows you so well that they know what you are going to do change the fact that you are making a decision based on reasons?

Yes, it's pre-determined. It's GOING to happen reguardless of what I do. While I have a choices, I am not going to choose one expect for the one that god knows I am going to choose. God isn't telling me what's going to happen but it's already set in stone that I will make those choice that god knows I am going to make. What's the point in living if God already knows what we are going to do? Whats the point in evil men living if all thats going to happen if they'll burn in hell for eternity?

 

[tellsek]

The jesus story was simply the first one that popped into my head when I was reading the thread. The same argument can be used with the story of noah that uses god, not jesus.

 

[Diasper]

I couldn't be bothered to read all the thread. Just to state my own opinions, I don't believe in a Christian/Muslim/Jewish monotheistic style god so take my views accordingly.

As I see it in a way this question can be rephrased according to time - in a way there isn't such a thing. Time is a somewhat human construction and in light of that the reason why a Christian god would inherently be greater than humans is because time doesn't exist for him as he exists at every point in 'time' simultaenously and hence knows the 'future'. Now he could only know this future due to the nature of time only being as a result of change - predicatble change - because time only exists relatively within human consciousness as a result of change, we therefore must exist in a cause and consequence universe. You can see this in things us all around us in our personal enviornment, our own emotions and perhaps even more aparently in science. Therefore, I don't believe in free will. Heck, human consciousness is an illusion and a side-effect from an over developed brain - it gives us a way of developing greater analytical skills over the world for survival. However, at the same time it gives us the illusion of time because our consciousness measures time by conscious changes in enviornment - what if there was no change in our surroudings/stimuli, would we be able to perceive time as well, if at all?

Anyway, in short no. Time is an illusion. Consiousness is an illusion as is a sense of a watchful monotheistic god - really just a surrogate father figure acting as a useful societal tool to bind people and create greater order and harmony. Religion is just the most effective 'happy drug' you can take and at the end of the day everyone deserves to strive for happiness so if it works for you - good.

I'm sorry if I've offended anyone and be free to disagree. I haveb't expressed my opinions and arguements articulately or in detail, but then again there's little to be gained by doing so here. At the end of the day, this really shouldn't matter. I've still got evangelical friends - everyone to their own. This whole thread is just flamfest material - I guess now I've contributed to that.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: tellsek
The jesus story was simply the first one that popped into my head when I was reading the thread. The same argument can be used with the story of noah that uses god, not jesus.

In that story, Noah was given every choice. True, those who died in the flood were not, but they were also not given foreknowledge either.


Diasper, my cat has a sentient consciousness and is aware of the passage of time. I know this to be true because I can observe it. Just FYI.

 

[Diasper]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: tellsek
The jesus story was simply the first one that popped into my head when I was reading the thread. The same argument can be used with the story of noah that uses god, not jesus.

In that story, Noah was given every choice. True, those who died in the flood were not, but they were also not given foreknowledge either.


Diasper, my cat has a sentient consciousness and is aware of the passage of time. I know this to be true because I can observe it. Just FYI.

Good for your cat, but we're not talking about cats. My comments aren't a reflection on encompassing the existence of other 'intelligent'/developed brain animals - but could be applicable/adapted nevertheless. This is about humans - their free will in relation to the concept of god.

 

[GreatBarracuda]

Originally posted by: Tabb
Yes, it's pre-determined. It's GOING to happen reguardless of what I do. While I have a choices, I am not going to choose one expect for the one that god knows I am going to choose. God isn't telling me what's going to happen but it's already set in stone that I will make those choice that god knows I am going to make. What's the point in living if God already knows what we are going to do? Whats the point in evil men living if all thats going to happen if they'll burn in hell for eternity?

You had a pretty good understanding of it a few posts ago and now it seems that you have forgotten all of that. You are now saying the exact same thing all over again.

Exercise that free will .... choose not to confuse yourself further after you have grasped the concept.

 

[Martin]

Yeah....could jesus microwave a burito so hot, even he couldn't eat it?

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: GreatBarracuda

Originally posted by: Tabb
Yes, it's pre-determined. It's GOING to happen reguardless of what I do. While I have a choices, I am not going to choose one expect for the one that god knows I am going to choose. God isn't telling me what's going to happen but it's already set in stone that I will make those choice that god knows I am going to make. What's the point in living if God already knows what we are going to do? Whats the point in evil men living if all thats going to happen if they'll burn in hell for eternity?

You had a pretty good understanding of it a few posts ago and now it seems that you have forgotten all of that. You are now saying the exact same thing all over again.

Exercise that free will .... choose not to confuse yourself further after you have grasped the concept.

Don't worry I am back tracking and re-organizing my thoughts.

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: Martin
Yeah....could jesus microwave a burito so hot, even he couldn't eat it?

8/10

 

[Jhhnn]

Vic had it right, early on in this thread. If God exists outside of the space/time continuum, then it's not like he knows the future in terms we could even begin to grasp, nor does it deny free will for those within the continuum, at all... Think of it more in terms of a time machine. If I could travel forward in time, and return, then I'd know the future, but that wouldn't negate the free will of the other few billion people on the planet...

 

[Tab]

Alright...

This is the "agrueement" agaisnt free will if God exsists... Still trying figure this one out in my mind...

If God already knows that something is going to happen in the the future it's already going to happen. It's set in the future we don't have the opition of changing it. We don't realize that we are choosing what God knows is going to happen. It's going to happen no matter what. I would think I have had choices but in reality I choose what ever God knows. I don't have the ablity to choose for myself.

We are basicallly contecting the dots...

Someone disects this and destroy it...

 

[GreatBarracuda]

Originally posted by: Tabb
I would think I have had choices but in reality I choose what ever God knows.

Ok, how's this: you choose "what was to be chosen." God knowing or not.

Originally posted by: Tabb
I don't have the ablity to choose for myself.

:Sigh;

Originally posted by: Tabb
Someone disects this and destroy it...

This is where I stop contributing to a thread.

 

[Tab]

[21:19] Someguy: if someone or something already knows what is going to happen then the future is already set, that thing WILL happen because this thing knows it will happen
[21:19] Someguy: we don't know this, but it doesnt matter
[21:19] Someguy: we think we're choosing our destiny, but we're just doing what this thing knows we will do
[21:19] Someguy: it seems, to us, that we have free will because we dont know we're following a pre-set track
[21:19] Someguy: but we dont because no matter what the things this thing knows will happen, will happen
[21:20] Someguy: THAT is the argument against free will
[21:20] Someguy: what you're saying is just agreeing with it
[21:20] Someguy: you seem to think it proves some contrary point, but it doesnt
[21:20] Someotherguy: hmm....
[21:21] Someotherguy: ..
[21:21] Someotherguy: ahh fsck
[21:21] Someotherguy: gr,
[21:21] Someotherguy: a
[21:21] Someotherguy: fa
[21:21] Someotherguy: ....
[21:24] Someotherguy: If god alreadys knows that something is going to happen in the future it's GOING to happen. We can't change that, it's permanent. We don't realize this, but it's the way it is.
[21:24] Someotherguy: right
[21:24] Someguy: righ
[21:25] Someguy: it doesnt matter if the things in the system know they will pass through points X Y and Z, if something knows they will then they will
[21:25] Someguy: they may think they choose to pass through them, but all the choices in the world couldn't have turned them from that course because something knew theywould pass through it
[21:30] Someotherguy: ..
[21:32] Someguy: its a fvcked up idea, isnt it?
[21:32] Someotherguy: I can still have free will though, my decision are not influnced by god's decisions. it's my own decision, god isn't influceing me. I still made my own choice, even though it's what god was thinking. I didn't ahh FvCK AHH!!!
[21:32] * Someotherguy bashes head agaisnt wall
[21:32] Someguy: ok, you're looking at it the wrong way
[21:32] Someguy: we dont do what we do because god desires it or mandates it
[21:32] Someguy: we do what we do because it is known that we will do it
[21:32] Someguy: we think we're cutting our own path, deciding our own things in life, but all we're doing is playing connect the dots without realizing it
[21:33] Someguy: you think you're choosing, but you're simply following the path laid out for ht
[21:33] Someguy: you
[21:33] Someguy: THATS what it means

 

[dornick]

Originally posted by: Tabb

We don't realize that we are choosing what God knows is going to happen.

This sentence, said by you, is what we're trying to say. You're going to have to change the emphasized word if you mean something else.

 

[Tab]

It's becoming a little more clearer...

 

[Tab]

I GET IT!!!

Now...

What about religion? There are plenty of cases where god has supposedely influnced people directly. If god creates things such as "miracles" and shit... How can you say free will still exsists?

Any kind of action by god or let his presence known would invalidate us having free will.

 

[Tab]

Now, how can a "typical" Christian beileve in God and Free will? By typical Christian it would be a person that would beileve in "miracles" and god influences use in our daliy life.

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: dornick

Originally posted by: Tabb

We don't realize that we are choosing what God knows is going to happen.

This sentence, said by you, is what we're trying to say. You're going to have to change the emphasized word if you mean something else.

That's not free will, we are bound by what god knows. We would be bound to what this thing knows.

This is what I am saying. That's not free will.

For god to exsist and humans have free will he would have to NOT know everything. He wouldn't be able to know the future. Only to have a idea of what would happen. Now, could a non-all knowing god still be perfect?