You are incorrectly assuming that the knowledge is the cause of your actions. In reality, they are independent. You sure could have chosen B,C, or D, and God would have known about those before too.
You are incorrectly assuming that the knowledge is the cause of your actions. In reality, they are independent. You sure could have chosen B,C, or D, and God would have known about those before too.
I think you're saying that God's knowledge of your actions is the actual cause of your actions because it happens first. But it isn't always cause and effect, what comes in sequence. All it is is prior knowledge of your choices.
This would also mean that God already knows whether you are going to hell or not, and that cannot be changed. So to tell you that you are able to go to heaven or hell is sort of pointless, as you aren't able to actually change that. God already knows the individual actions, and their eventual outcome...
That's all I am trying to say as well. Maybe this can be confusing to some who are looking at it in a way that I am not.
True. God knows where you will end up: heaven or hell. But if He tells you that or you come to know about it in some way, then your life would be pointless and meaningless. But of course this doesn't happen. That is why you are free to make decisions based on your free will or god-given free will for those who believe in God.
Fascinating, isn't it? So one might say that if it is already known where I will go, i.e. heaven or hell, what's the point of life? Well, you don't know that, GOD does. Even if God doesn't know, it's still the same for you. You can't complain either way.
If you or anyone else is still unsatisfied, let me ask ... how would you feel if free will (as we know it now through this thread) was taken from you?
O.K. but if he can tell the future then what truly is free will? Supposedly being able to make your own decisions and choosing your own path, correct? So if he can tell the future and knows what you will do then that seems to already be predeterminded, no? What is free will if your future actions seem to be predetermined anyway. There are too many things to think about, especially on this topic.
Originally posted by: GreatBarracuda
True. God knows where you will end up: heaven or hell. But if He tells you that or you come to know about it in some way, then your life would be pointless and meaningless. But of course this doesn't happen. That is why you are free to make decisions based on your free will or god-given free will for those who believe in God.
Fascinating, isn't it? So one might say that if it is already known where I will go, i.e. heaven or hell, what's the point of life? Well, you don't know that, GOD does. Even if God doesn't know, it's still the same for you. You can't complain either way.
If you or anyone else is still unsatisfied, let me ask ... how would you feel if free will (as we know it now through this thread) was taken from you?
So it's all a matter of perception. My perceived free will and therefore my choice of going to heaven are all a sham, but I don't realize it... so ignorance is bliss. That's not the kind of state I want to live in. Of course, I won't have to, because I don't believe in a God at all.
This is EXACTLY what I am getting at... Free will is just a illusion, I don't really have a choice. I just think I do.
Suppose you believe in God and that you are brought before Him on the Day of Judgement and you are found to be deserving of Hell. Before you are cast off into the fire, God asks you: were you not given the free will and the intellect to choose good over evil?
You say: yes (and for whatever reason you chose evil actions over good deeds).
God is still not unjust and no, this life's not a sham.
Can you say that in all honesty? Are you posting here because someone is forcing you to? Is that not free will?
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
- 50,422
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Knowledge != action
As I already said, the argument in favor of theological fatalism is itself a logical fallacy. It is a strawman similar to the old "Can God create a boulder he couldn't lift?" bullsh!t. It presupposes that omniscience and omnipotence are the same thing, and that is not true.
Go on about your stupid selves though. This is only the 3rd time in the last month this argument has been debated on this board. I can't wait for the flamebait troll to walk in :roll:
As I already said, the argument in favor of theological fatalism is itself a logical fallacy. It is a strawman similar to the old "Can God create a boulder he couldn't lift?" bullsh!t. It presupposes that omniscience and omnipotence are the same thing, and that is not true.
Go on about your stupid selves though. This is only the 3rd time in the last month this argument has been debated on this board. I can't wait for the flamebait troll to walk in :roll:
Kadarin
Lifer
- Nov 23, 2001
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Thus speaks the flaming simpleton who contributes nothing to this thread. Nice going. :thumbsup:
Within the context of the thread, you have the free will to make any given choice. However, God would have already known what you would have chosen. It's a moot point, because God does not communicate the outcome of your choice to anyone in advance.
(Disclaimer: I do not believe in God; just advancing a logical argument.)
If you're saying this is simaller to the "Can God create something so big he can't life it?" please explain. I am not trying to be a dick or anything here.
It's just that it feels like to me that there is already a pre-determined path, these things are GOING to happen.
Originally posted by: Vic
God has a gun to his head right now.
I know you have debated this recently here in P&N and your patience is wearing thin, but let's not get carried away.
I think I'm beginning to see why people could have a problem with it.
Originally posted by: GreatBarracuda
Originally posted by: Vic
God has a gun to his head right now.
I know you have debated this recently here in P&N and your patience is wearing thin, but let's not get carried away.
I think I'm beginning to see why people could have a problem with it.
If God exsists, it feels like my life is already determined I am going to do options A because they've already been determined by god....
If you could compare this to the "Could god make a rock so big he can't lift it" that be much easier as I've already discussed this with my friends and understand that a bit more.
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
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Staying in topic with the thread, and presupposing all the religious ideologies of an omniscience God -- you have Free Will because God's omnipotence decrees it. This is similar to the boulder BS because it is a logical fallacy intended to be mocking. Sticking within the logical context of an omnipotent Almighty God, He can do anything except not be God. Therefore, if he decrees you have Free Will, then you do. No amount of foreknowledge logically removes your ability to choose, this has already been demonstrated 50 times over in this thread, no matter how much you may not want to accept it. The boulder BS doesn't work because it would require that God stop being God so no, He couldn't create a boulder He couldn't lift, because He could lift anything and He can't stop being God.
I don't believe in any type of pre-determination except insofar as the past forms the present and the present forms the future. Otherwise, there are always choices. When there are no more choices, that is when you are dead.
That's right. And no one blames you for that.
Take a look at yourself. I mean, sit down for a minute. Think about why you did the things you did today, i.e. get up from bed, eat, type 'a' on the keyboard, etc. You had a choice before you did every one of those things. That is free will, plain and simple.
You do this day in, day out. You keep doing it for say ... 50 more years. Now you have a collection/record of good actions and bad actions. Each one of them, a result of your free will.
Is this a sham or an illusion? I don't think you'll say yes.
Then you die, go to hell or heaven based on what you did in this world according to your free will. Now, God knew everything you did before you did it. But He still gave you that choice and you used it! What happened at the end was the result of your doing ... no external influence.
Therefore, God is totally just and this life is full of meaning for you.
Thank God, I don't beileve in God.... I see your point....
So basically you're saying that....
Just because God know's what I am going to do doesn't mean this affects my decisions. I haven't made my decisions, it's just that God already knows what I am going to choose...
So then whats the point of "salvation" I am already going to do these things,.....
Still seems kind of werid..
So basically you're saying that....
Just because God know's what I am going to do doesn't mean this affects my decisions. I haven't made my decisions, it's just that God already knows what I am going to choose...
So then whats the point of "salvation" I am already going to do these things,.....
Still seems kind of werid..
Are you thanking God but don't believe in Him at the same time?
At this point, being a Muslim, I would thank God for removing such confusion from my mind so I could get on with my life with renewed vigour and meaning ... but that's me.
Salvation depends on the very thing we just talked about. You exercise your free will to do things that are required for salvation. In the case of Islam, the five pillars being the minimum.
Edit: In my opinion, that "weird" feeling can only go away with faith.
From the link it states that the argument is ONLY valid for passive foreknowledge and that the demise of free will would only logically come if God made His knowledge public in regard to the free will choice of individuals; this would therefore alter future free will, and make it an obligation.
However in the bible didn't jesus say to one of his apostles that he would deny him three times to the authorities before the next day. According to the arguments from your website this would invalidate free will, and if god could do that for any one person in any one instance, then he could do it to anyone at anytime making free will a deception.
Even though I didn't say this, let me make a comment. You're right in saying that it would bring about the "demise of free will" if God were to make His knowledge of the future public. This wouldn't just "alter" future free will, it would throw free will off into non-existence because now your actions would not be free from external influence, i.e. your knowledge of your own future decisions!
Originally posted by: kogase
Originally posted by: GreatBarracuda
True. God knows where you will end up: heaven or hell. But if He tells you that or you come to know about it in some way, then your life would be pointless and meaningless. But of course this doesn't happen. That is why you are free to make decisions based on your free will or god-given free will for those who believe in God.
Fascinating, isn't it? So one might say that if it is already known where I will go, i.e. heaven or hell, what's the point of life? Well, you don't know that, GOD does. Even if God doesn't know, it's still the same for you. You can't complain either way.
If you or anyone else is still unsatisfied, let me ask ... how would you feel if free will (as we know it now through this thread) was taken from you?
So it's all a matter of perception. My perceived free will and therefore my choice of going to heaven are all a sham, but I don't realize it... so ignorance is bliss. That's not the kind of state I want to live in. Of course, I won't have to, because I don't believe in a God at all.
Sure, a matter of perception I suppose you could say. But you will never have God's perception, so basically it's not just a matter of perception, but also a matter of reality.
For example, let's say you have an option to do 1 of 10 possible things. You can only do 1 of the 10 things, and that's it. So, the reality of the situation is that you will do only 1 thing, nothing more. You are limited in your choice. Does the fact that someone else already knows you so well that they know what you are going to do change the fact that you are making a decision based on reasons?
Because honestly, it's impossible for you to be basing your decision on God's foreknowledge, because you don't know what God knows about you. So, that means you are basing your decision on something else, something separate from God's knowledge, meaning the decision is yours to make.
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