Can anyone keep ownership of their computer after Vista?

[thestain]

Many years ago, those involved in assembling the brilliant protector of individual freedoms called the United States Constitution forsaw the need to protect our rights to pursue property.. the wording guaranteeing that right was almost written into our Constitution.. (EDIT)and almost made it into the Declaration of Independence where. it was written as the pursuit of Happiness.. think about it.. even back in the 1700's the right to really own something and to pursue such ownership at the most basic levels was considered important.

What Microsoft has done in controlling the PC with its EULA's certaintly takes away our right to pursue property and also my pursuit of happiness. We don't really purchase the software as our property anymore, but rather we purchase a license, subject to conditions..

What the big Corporate Alliances.. often set up as benefactors of society, as not-for-profit organizations (with some very twisted and unfair licensing practices).. are putting into place is a system involving Cable, The Internet, entertainment equipment and media, your PC, cell phone, telephone.. etc..!

These domains are being locked down to keep you, the consumer from having a right to really own and possess these components and technologies as your own, your TV, your computer and your various hardware and software and other things that you thought were your property. This approach to changing property rights is an old one.. one that Americans fought the Brittish over to be free of well over 200 years ago!

Being able to own some land, a home, and all was really important back then.. so was not having to pay taxes.. Well, taxes are back, most have huge mortgages on homes, limiting their rights to really enjoy the property.. since debt demands payment.. and so the battle over our freedoms continues.. in this battle over the right to really be free to choose and.. own your software for your PC the battle was lost ten or more years ago, when Microsoft took control of things.. monopoly power.. wielded at the highest levels.. no enforcement from our nation.. nope.. too much power and the alliance of Microsoft as the key member tying the software in with the hardware.. crossing and connecting various domains.. well more freedoms will dissapear..

Think of how limited our choices are becoming.. in Politics.. and A or B party selection is all we have to look forward to.. in Video Cards, its ati or nVidia.. in cpu's its intel and sometimes AMD.. and now.. you can choose to be trusted or not to be trusted.. and either has a price.. your freedom to really own your software and your hardware.. for you have no choice on this.. your ownership rights have been taken away.. it just has not become evident yet, because.. the strings to pull are laying dormant right under the surface... tick tock... your freedoms will be coming to an end.. little by little.. piece by piece.. Game set and Match to Microsoft and its various Alliances.. just like Steve Jobs said the PC wars were fought a long time ago and Microsoft won.. and to the victor.. well go the spoils.. and Microsoft and its Comrades ..its partners they are geting ready to cash in.. so.. if you want to offset some of the cost.. buy stock in Microsoft, in Intel, in Ati, in nVidia.. in Time Warner, in Cox... because these companies are going to make some serious money.. oh.. and dont' forget Intel and... AMD if they can survive Conroe.

The Stain

 

[doornail]

I say more power to them. Crank up the DRM! Lock everything down so tight that users can hardly breathe. Convert every one of those computers into padlocked, cash-draining, media appliances.

It will create a new market for independant artists to offer un-hobbled music and drive more brain-power over to free software.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: thestain
What Microsoft has done in controlling the PC with its EULA's certaintly takes away our right to pursue property and also my pursuit of happiness. We don't really purchase the software as our property anymore, but rather we purchase a license, subject to conditions..

The amount of software out there that is condition free is pretty slim. I can only think of a couple of pieces of code that are in the public domain, everything else I can think of is at least copyrighted.

 

[Markbnj]

the brilliant protector of individual freedoms called the United States Constitution forsaw the need to protect our rights to pursue property

What is this right to pursue property that you speak of? I am aware of a right to pursue happiness, in that those words appear in the Declaration of Independence, which is not, however, generally held to be a legal document related to the laws of the United States. I am aware of a right to be secure in your home, and your property by virtue of the fourth amendment. But I am not aware of a right to pursue property, or of how a legal entity's imposition of terms under which its property can be used interferes with your right to exercise this right to pursue property. I suppose a right to "pursue" property can be implied from the fourth amendment, in that you can't really be worried about being secure in your effects if you aren't allowed to have any. But then I still don't see how Microsoft's placing restrictions on the use of their property, which they have acquired over many years of investment and effort, infringes on some right of yours.

It will create a new market for independant artists to offer un-hobbled music and drive more brain-power over to free software.

That's the answer, absolutely. I don't think we need to deprive Microsoft of its property rights in order to ensure that the free market will do its job.

 

[drag]

What is this right to pursue property that you speak of?

He goober'd the quote a bit.. But basicly property rights is the fundamental concept of 'Liberty'. You work for a living, you make and earn what is yours.. Your life is your own. Everybody else can F-off. Freedom to do what you want with what you got.
That sort of thing. Back in the day proper property rights was at the core of the concept of liberty.

 

[thestain]

What gives Microsoft and the Trusted Computing Alliance the Right to demand we surrender some rights to partake in the full enjoyment of new technologies?

The "Trusted".. or maybe better called, "Terms of Surrender" Computing Platform Alliance has given us two choices, do we want to join them or not?

Do we have a choice?

What is not being said is that if you don't want to surrender your rights over your PC, they will not allow you to enjoy freedoms that were yours previously.

and.. in order to join, you will need to surrender your rights over your PC that you held previously..

So.. choice one, have the Trusted Platform Alliance control you from within.. or opt out and find that there are walls to your communicating with those within the Alliance and walls and barriers to your using property and software to its maxiumum potential..

So.. another way.. be possessed by the Platform.. have it dwell inside your PC and other Hardware, like your TV, or

Be Oppressed by the Platform.. not being entitled to use and enjoy new techology or even freely communicate with others who have surrendered to the Platform Alliance.

The Surrender or be Oppressed Computing Platform Alliance seems to be a more accurate name to me. Walls are being built, the chips are in the hardware.. and Vista is a coming.

The Stain

 

[Markbnj]

He goober'd the quote a bit.. But basicly property rights is the fundamental concept of 'Liberty'. You work for a living, you make and earn what is yours.. Your life is your own. Everybody else can F-off. Freedom to do what you want with what you got.
That sort of thing. Back in the day proper property rights was at the core of the concept of liberty.

What the heck do property rights have to do with anything he said? So, what you're saying is, Back In The Good Old Days he could do whatever the hell he wanted with other people's property? How is Microsoft, or anyone else in the Tinfoil Hat Arch Enemies Coalition, reducing his property rights even a little bit? You guys all own any technology that happens to be installed on your computer? Here's a clue: format your hard disk, remove any dvds or cdroms from your drives, erase the BIOS, and the firmware in all of the eproms on add-in cards or chips. Now step back and look at that cold, dead chunk of metal, plastic, and rubber. Know what that is? It's the part you own. Enjoy it.

Be Oppressed by the Platform.. not being entitled to use and enjoy new techology or even freely communicate with others who have surrendered to the Platform Alliance.

Can anyone here do a credible Rod Serling impression? Anyone?

Look, if you want free technology, make it, then give it away, instead of prattling on nearly imcomprehensibly about how your right to pursue property means the Evil Overlords have no right to their own property.

Cause, you know, that sounds a little silly and paranoid.

 

[Chocolate Pi]

Markbnj, thank you for your crystal-clear perspective on this whole ordeal. "The giant corporate legion of evil" idea seems to take reasonable examination and skepticism of businesses to a level of cult-like fanaticism. Talk about paranoia... Microsoft is hardly the kindest of companies, but to think they are right out of 1984... Sheesh...

And just a heads up, the first person to throw out the word "Draconian" will be shot.

 

[doornail]

Originally posted by: Chocolate Pi
Markbnj, thank you for your crystal-clear perspective on this whole ordeal. "The giant corporate legion of evil" idea seems to take reasonable examination and skepticism of businesses to a level of cult-like fanaticism. Talk about paranoia... Microsoft is hardly the kindest of companies, but to think they are right out of 1984... Sheesh...

And just a heads up, the first person to throw out the word "Draconian" will be shot.

That's a draconian threat, ya' know. ;-p

Building consumer-hostile media platforms only requires greed, not evil. As Glen Frey said, the lure of easy money has a very strong appeal. Microsoft wants customers locked in and competitors locked out. DRM gives them this. NOTHING even comes remotely close to the power of locking up bits in formats that are illegal to even talk about.

Out there somewhere, are people who happily and stupidly buy stuff over and over. They like a song so they buy the CD, and the iTunes song, and the same song for their cellphone, and the same song for their cellphone's ringtone. Maybe even the video for their iPod and then again for their cellphone.

You and I are in competition with those people. We fight over the definition of what is reasonable -- and we are losing. A billion iTune sales prove that they can divorce buying from owning and not lose any money.

Like Wargames, the only way to win is not to play.

Go free software.

 

[nova2]

thinking really big again: 1984, etc, etc, yeah yeah, even if it all goes down hill for the general majority, earth isn't the only planet.

1000 years is tiny compared to all eternity.

lets just see if everyone doesn't get nuked and kill most humans due to radiation. (or a plague)

the nukes are one of the largest problems.

i think i've said enough regarding nukes. adios.

in the end, what matters most to you?

are all your precious assets secured in a bunker, or what?

bad things will continue to happen of course, and people should learn the pros/cons of it from history, then move on with more wisdom.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: thestain
What gives Microsoft and the Trusted Computing Alliance the Right to demand we surrender some rights to partake in the full enjoyment of new technologies?

The "Trusted".. or maybe better called, "Terms of Surrender" Computing Platform Alliance has given us two choices, do we want to join them or not?

Do we have a choice?

What is not being said is that if you don't want to surrender your rights over your PC, they will not allow you to enjoy freedoms that were yours previously.

and.. in order to join, you will need to surrender your rights over your PC that you held previously..

So.. choice one, have the Trusted Platform Alliance control you from within.. or opt out and find that there are walls to your communicating with those within the Alliance and walls and barriers to your using property and software to its maxiumum potential..

So.. another way.. be possessed by the Platform.. have it dwell inside your PC and other Hardware, like your TV, or

Be Oppressed by the Platform.. not being entitled to use and enjoy new techology or even freely communicate with others who have surrendered to the Platform Alliance.

The Surrender or be Oppressed Computing Platform Alliance seems to be a more accurate name to me. Walls are being built, the chips are in the hardware.. and Vista is a coming.

The Stain

What won't we be able to enjoy if we choose to not accept the trusted computing platform? The latest britney spears album? Fast and Furious Wheelchair Races? No loss there. There will always be free content creators that excel in ways the mass produced hype-machine supported popular culture world will never enjoy.

We won't be missing anything.

It is their right to say how their property is used. If you don't like it, look for more consumer friendly software and content. It's out there, have you looked?

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: doornail

Originally posted by: Chocolate Pi
Markbnj, thank you for your crystal-clear perspective on this whole ordeal. "The giant corporate legion of evil" idea seems to take reasonable examination and skepticism of businesses to a level of cult-like fanaticism. Talk about paranoia... Microsoft is hardly the kindest of companies, but to think they are right out of 1984... Sheesh...

And just a heads up, the first person to throw out the word "Draconian" will be shot.

That's a draconian threat, ya' know. ;-p

Building consumer-hostile media platforms only requires greed, not evil. As Glen Frey said, the lure of easy money has a very strong appeal. Microsoft wants customers locked in and competitors locked out. DRM gives them this. NOTHING even comes remotely close to the power of locking up bits in formats that are illegal to even talk about.

Out there somewhere, are people who happily and stupidly buy stuff over and over. They like a song so they buy the CD, and the iTunes song, and the same song for their cellphone, and the same song for their cellphone's ringtone. Maybe even the video for their iPod and then again for their cellphone.

You and I are in competition with those people. We fight over the definition of what is reasonable -- and we are losing. A billion iTune sales prove that they can divorce buying from owning and not lose any money.

Like Wargames, the only way to win is not to play.

Go free software.

Unless you write it, you probably don't own most of that free software you use.

 

[doornail]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Unless you write it, you probably don't own most of that free software you use.

No, but I am guaranteed the following:

- The freedom to run the program, for any purpose (freedom 0).
- The freedom to study how the program works, and adapt it to your needs (freedom 1). Access to the source code is a precondition for this.
- The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor (freedom 2).
- The freedom to improve the program, and release your improvements to the public, so that the whole community benefits (freedom 3). Access to the source code is a precondition for this.

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

Which suits me just fine.

 

[thestain]

Buy and Sell... no strings.. but with some copyright protections is how business in general is done and has been done over the course of human history..

But, occassionally.. when the Seller gets powerful enough, and cunning enough.. this whole thing takes place with more rights still residing with the seller and less with the buyer than what would take place in a "fair" transaction.

While Microsoft has enjoyed tremendous power in negotiating what they transfer to end users.. I think this power is going to really increase in the coming years.. not just Microsoft, but the power of those developing and then transfering technology compared to the consumer or end user....

I don't know what "Possessed" Bill Gates, Microsoft, Intel, AMD, HP, IBM and a couple hundred other companies to join in.. the "Trusted Computing Platform Alliance" or for Intel to develop chips to control and keep possession power better for this Alliance, but..

Get ready to more accurately call your PC's by a different name..

I propose we call them "Possessed Computer's"

The rights of those that have developed the Technology have come a long way.. the power is extroardinary.. and your PC is not your own. I would really like to know whom we can buy PC components from.. any cpu's not under Microsofts thumb? and Grahics card makers not part of the "Possessed Computing" (TCPA)Alliance?

It is easy to say.. don't buy.. but I need tech.. will start another practical thread.. Options??

The Stain

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: thestain
Buy and Sell... no strings.. but with some copyright protections is how business in general is done and has been done over the course of human history..

But, occassionally.. when the Seller gets powerful enough, and cunning enough.. this whole thing takes place with more rights still residing with the seller and less with the buyer than what would take place in a "fair" transaction.

The change in the Tech Environment we have see in the past 20 years, has gradually increased the power of the Tech Providers to the detriment of the rights of the Tech users.. and while your computer has been a "personal" PC for many years, the retention of ownership rights by the stronger negotiating party, the Provider of the Technology, has led to what appears to me, to be a change that with Vista would better be called, "Possessed Computers"..

Whether your PC ever was yours, may be debatable.. should it have been that is debatable.. In order to really have freedom, certain rights are needed... and..

whether this ends up being a biggie or just a small concern.. history will show.. but..

with the Tech.. with the Trusted Platform Module Chips in so many components and appliances and this number is growing.. and with software and Identification of you and me embedded in such.. the right to quietly enjoy tech that was transferred to us for a price is certainly in jeopardy..

Possessed Technology? And this Possession is not in the best interest of the end user.. or any user trying to inter-act with the user of "possessed devices"

"Possessed" Computing.. just a thought on where this is headed.

The Stain

Software licenses have been around for a long time now. It isn't like you're buying a car, where you can see, feel, and possess the item. You're buying an idea, a figment of the imagination, ones and zeroes in a particular pattern. You don't own it, and you only have the rights given to you buy the owners. Live with it, or buy consumer friendly products.. The choice is yours. Live FREE or live like a slave to the wills of corporate America.

As a consumer you hold the power. Vote with your wallet. Buy the products that have proven themselves as consumer friendly, avoid those that have not. Tell your friends and family. Spread the word. Support the good companies, shun the bad.

As far as content goes, look for those artists out there that care deeply about what they do. The ones that want you to listen to their music, to enjoy their art, to read their words; not because they make money, but because they want to share it. There are plenty of them out there.

Steven King did an experiment a few years ago. you could download his latest book, a chapter at a time I think, for free. If you wanted to you could send him a dollar through amazon.com. If he got enough dollars he would release the next chapter, if he didn't he wouldn't. That's pretty cool.

Warren Ellis writes comic books. A hell of a lot of comic books. One of his latest creations is called FELL. It's a buck ninety-nine US. You could buy it with the change in your couch and have enough for a can of soda pop. He isn't rich, he isn't making a ton of money, and he's probably even making less on this comic than most of the others he writes. But he felt for the people reading his books. The ones that came up to him in a convention and told him how much they loved his work, and how they had read everything he wrote that they could get their hands on. They'd hand him a scrap of paper to sign and tell him they couldn't afford to go out and get his comics, so he created one they could.

These are the types of content creators to support. The ones that give a damn. The ones that probably won't be releasing stuff under some DRM scheme if they have anything to say about it. Stay informed. Vote with your money. It's the only thing some of these companies understand.

Remember, we're the customers and the companies will come to us if we make them. If we don't, if we continue to use their products no matter how we feel about them, they'll laugh all the way to the bank. And unless you're ready to take the step away from these trivial and silly things, quit bitching.

 

[Markbnj]

Building consumer-hostile media platforms only requires greed, not evil.

I think the key point is that, if these platforms are really consumer-hostile, then they will fail. Consumers will turn to other distribution channels, and even other forms of entertainment.

These companies clearly control the right to their intellectual property, but if they exercise those rights in a way that is at odds with what their customers want, then they will find that the property has no value.

The market already jas all the necessary mechanisms. Nothing further is needed.

Out there somewhere, are people who happily and stupidly buy stuff over and over.

And right here is where you guys completely lose credibility and all touch with reality. You have this philosophical problem with proprietary bits, but if the rest of consumerdom doesn't agree with you, then they are acting stupidly. Almost by definition, in a free market, consumers who purchase are not acting stupidly, but in accordance with their own perception of self-interest. If they want the song, and aren't bothered by the stuff you are bothered by, then they purchase the song. This is not stupid.

What won't we be able to enjoy if we choose to not accept the trusted computing platform? The latest britney spears album? Fast and Furious Wheelchair Races? No loss there. There will always be free content creators that excel in ways the mass produced hype-machine supported popular culture world will never enjoy.

We won't be missing anything.

It is their right to say how their property is used. If you don't like it, look for more consumer friendly software and content. It's out there, have you looked?

Exactly correct.

I propose we call them "Possessed Computer's"

Yeah, something or someone is possessed, but it's not my computer.

Steven King did an experiment a few years ago. you could download his latest book, a chapter at a time I think, for free. If you wanted to you could send him a dollar through amazon.com. If he got enough dollars he would release the next chapter, if he didn't he wouldn't. That's pretty cool.

Not exactly. He made the book available on the honor system, but you were expected to pay for it if you read it. He stopped shortly after inception because almost nobody did. People don't, in general, pay for stuff they can get for free.

 

[imported_Questar]

I don't know what "Possessed" Bill Gates, Microsoft, Intel, AMD, HP, IBM and a couple hundred other companies to join in.. the "Trusted Computing Platform Alliance"

Becuase most of us want secure computers. I don't want the computer handling my CC transaction sending my info to the Russian mob.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: Markbnj
Not exactly. He made the book available on the honor system, but you were expected to pay for it if you read it. He stopped shortly after inception because almost nobody did. People don't, in general, pay for stuff they can get for free.

Yeah, you were supposed to but you didn't have to. I almost tossed him a couple of bucks because it was a cool idea (even though I wouldn't ever read it ).

People pay for stuff they don't have to all of the time, that's how iTMS became the success it is.

 

[nova2]

Originally posted by: Markbnj
People don't, in general, pay for stuff they can get for free.

not exactly.

of course they won't be able to pay as much if the USD's value is way higher than their currency.

if I like it, and the content author asks for 10 USD, and I'm not broke every month,
then hey, why not.

it all adds up for the author, he should state something like "10 usd if you can, or less if you can't"

 

[Markbnj]

it all adds up for the author, he should state something like "10 usd if you can, or less if you can't"

That would be an interesting approach, but I still don't think people would pay.