One thing I wanna add about sex as being a gift. I saw monkeys in Central Park going at it even with all the people watching them. They are REALLY enjoying that gift, if it really is a gift?!?! Sex is Sex, there's nothing special, magical, or godly about it. I believe birds are the only ones that stays monogamous all like more than 90% of the time, primates are less than 10%, and humans are primates.
why is it that people think that if you only have sex to your married partner you will only have sex with one person? tis not always the case. many people get married multiple times in thier lives these days. via divorce/remarry, widowing/remarry, or paligamy one can have multiple sex partners in life and still only have sex to thier marrige partner.
i think the problem is that we live too long now. i mean look, if you die young you'll likely die with your 1st love before it turns sour
People who are aginst it and are deeply religious are missing out. They probably can't get any so they say it's against their religion and pretend to be better than everyone else. They say things like who are you to say and blah blah blah blah...
I think the whole discussion has gone on long enough that people are getting confused about the issue at hand. First, the disclaimer : No offense is intended and I believe people here are cool enough take this in the way I meant it.
"Why is *premarital* sex considered *immoral*?"
1)The discussion pertains to premarital sex. Not casual sex, not heathen sex, not "banging a syphillis-laden skank" (excuse my french) sex. In other words, the original question was "why is sex before marriage considered wrong/immoral?"
For those that have gone on about the dangers of STD's and the logical conclusion thereof that premarital sex is logically wrong, your argument looks like this :
Pre-suppositions:
i) There are many sexually transmitted diseases (STDs) being passed around.
ii) Having (premarital) sex puts you at risk of contracting STD.
Conclusion:
iii) Therefore, premarital sex is considered logically and, reasonably, wrong.
Laid out that way, the flaws in the argument become apparent. Firstly, the conclusion can only hold if the assumptions hold. If, someday, a cure is found to treat and prevent all STDs, then the above-mentioned few who argued this way would be very happy campers indeed. The analogy can be drawn to people who break in and rob stores during riots. The issue of that argument is therefore not premarital sex, but how to avoid getting STDs.
Secondly, extending the argument, does this mean that all acts that potentially endanger your well-being are considered inherently logically wrong and therefore immoral? That being the case, any act of self-sacrifice would, likewise, be regarded in the same light. I wonder what a certain Jew, pinned up on two sticks and dying for things he didn't do, would have to say about that.
Thirdly, the topic begs the quesion of morality. Since the Christian faith is, arbitrarily, just a system of morality, asking a Christian to argue morals without quoting religious dogma is just plain mean At least invite em to justify their system of morals, then that'd be more fun
In addition, the discussion in general seems to have the assumption that the whole premarital sex deal is rotten for the female partner. If your man leaves you feeling like a tree that's been pissed on by a dog, there's definately a problem there. I wouldn't mind working that out with you, drop me a PM ;P .
A lot of people in this discussion have also mentioned the aspect of trust and commitment in a relationship. This is a side-issue to the main topic, but I have something to say about that anyway (it's late and I can't sleep ). The role of love-making in the building of a relationship seems to have been discounted. Hands-up those of you who have felt closer to someone after having sex. C'mon, hands right up.
There was a post about cultural beliefs and ideas, and how culture considers it taboo. Take a step back from good ol' USA and see that, contrary to popular belief, there ARE other places besides America. A certain culture in South America exists (I don't have the name offhand, could check it up if you like) in which the role of the father is played by the wife's brother, and the biological father is more like a playmate. Yet other cultures exist where homosexuality is considered the norm, because semen is considered evil and the men must keep it to themselves. Sound wierd to you? Heard "gangsta rap" lately?
People who argued that "you shouldn't try before you buy" are taking a leap of faith. If you are ready to do that with someone you are promising to spend the rest of your life with, I'm not sure if you're taking that promise very seriously.
Mention was made of a child coming into the world "on the wrong foot." Well, that child is coming into the world as a result of an act of love or intimacy (since we're not talking about rape here) and is WAY better off than a test-tube baby. At least the biological parents got steps 1-3 right (if you don't know what they are you shouldn't be reading this). Its also hard to prove that children conceived prior to wedlock turn out to be troubled people. Suggesting that the words "I do" have a magical and life-transforming effect on the fetus is rather far-fetched, to say the least.
Would someone please explain the whole "becoming part of someone" and "not sharing your whole being with another someone" after "becoming one with someone?" Sounds really messy, and last I checked, we've evolved way past amoeba by now.
Regarding the post about "our minds are so weak and feeble," I would like to invite the person who posted that message to take his argument further and bring it to its final, absurd conclusion. I use the term absurd in the philosophical sense. If we are not perfect, can never be perfect and never will be, and are too weak and feeble to comprehend things as they are, and never can, why should we even bother? We'll never succeed anyway. We'll never be able to progress from wearing a loincloth and scratching at fleas in the dark to wearing boxers and typing at keyboards in the dark. Even if we do manage the little triumphs, so what? 10000 years down the road, who's going to care about what I did anyway?
Well I care, for one, and I care because IT FEELS GOOD TO BE ALIVE.
Nothing personal, but if you're going to assume that you're too dumb or stupid to understand anything and never will, don't also make the mistake of assuming that others are like you. I respect your religion, respect my self-respect and those of others.
So, does premarital sex harm any one in any way? Assuming both partners do not have diagnoses on the DSM-IV, it is safe to say that the act itself does not. Free from the trappings of STD, it would then seem that there isn't anything wrong with premarital sex.
Btw, cheers to the man who raises his daughter up to not have to live with bad sex. Couldn't agree more. Cheers also to aihyah, whom I'm beginning to suspect is someone I know in person. (just from the things she's said.)
amdskip's hinting at a celestial "hotdeal" forum, where different people qualify for different rewards, just makes me sad. Marriage doesn't give you sexual affirmation. If it does, consider help. Marriage is a mere formality declaring to the rest of the people around you, and to the respective legislative entity, what you already know in your heart; You can't wait to share the rest of your life with the wonderful person in front of you. If you need help seeing that, then no amount of philosophical debate is going to help you.
"Why is *premarital* sex considered *immoral*?"
1)The discussion pertains to premarital sex. Not casual sex, not heathen sex, not "banging a syphillis-laden skank" (excuse my french) sex. In other words, the original question was "why is sex before marriage considered wrong/immoral?"
For those that have gone on about the dangers of STD's and the logical conclusion thereof that premarital sex is logically wrong, your argument looks like this :
Pre-suppositions:
i) There are many sexually transmitted diseases (STDs) being passed around.
ii) Having (premarital) sex puts you at risk of contracting STD.
Conclusion:
iii) Therefore, premarital sex is considered logically and, reasonably, wrong.
Laid out that way, the flaws in the argument become apparent. Firstly, the conclusion can only hold if the assumptions hold. If, someday, a cure is found to treat and prevent all STDs, then the above-mentioned few who argued this way would be very happy campers indeed. The analogy can be drawn to people who break in and rob stores during riots. The issue of that argument is therefore not premarital sex, but how to avoid getting STDs.
Secondly, extending the argument, does this mean that all acts that potentially endanger your well-being are considered inherently logically wrong and therefore immoral? That being the case, any act of self-sacrifice would, likewise, be regarded in the same light. I wonder what a certain Jew, pinned up on two sticks and dying for things he didn't do, would have to say about that.
Thirdly, the topic begs the quesion of morality. Since the Christian faith is, arbitrarily, just a system of morality, asking a Christian to argue morals without quoting religious dogma is just plain mean
At least invite em to justify their system of morals, then that'd be more fun In addition, the discussion in general seems to have the assumption that the whole premarital sex deal is rotten for the female partner. If your man leaves you feeling like a tree that's been pissed on by a dog, there's definately a problem there. I wouldn't mind working that out with you, drop me a PM ;P .
A lot of people in this discussion have also mentioned the aspect of trust and commitment in a relationship. This is a side-issue to the main topic, but I have something to say about that anyway (it's late and I can't sleep
). The role of love-making in the building of a relationship seems to have been discounted. Hands-up those of you who have felt closer to someone after having sex. C'mon, hands right up. There was a post about cultural beliefs and ideas, and how culture considers it taboo. Take a step back from good ol' USA and see that, contrary to popular belief, there ARE other places besides America. A certain culture in South America exists (I don't have the name offhand, could check it up if you like) in which the role of the father is played by the wife's brother, and the biological father is more like a playmate. Yet other cultures exist where homosexuality is considered the norm, because semen is considered evil and the men must keep it to themselves. Sound wierd to you? Heard "gangsta rap" lately?
People who argued that "you shouldn't try before you buy" are taking a leap of faith. If you are ready to do that with someone you are promising to spend the rest of your life with, I'm not sure if you're taking that promise very seriously.
Mention was made of a child coming into the world "on the wrong foot." Well, that child is coming into the world as a result of an act of love or intimacy (since we're not talking about rape here) and is WAY better off than a test-tube baby. At least the biological parents got steps 1-3 right (if you don't know what they are you shouldn't be reading this). Its also hard to prove that children conceived prior to wedlock turn out to be troubled people. Suggesting that the words "I do" have a magical and life-transforming effect on the fetus is rather far-fetched, to say the least.
Would someone please explain the whole "becoming part of someone" and "not sharing your whole being with another someone" after "becoming one with someone?" Sounds really messy, and last I checked, we've evolved way past amoeba by now.
Regarding the post about "our minds are so weak and feeble," I would like to invite the person who posted that message to take his argument further and bring it to its final, absurd conclusion. I use the term absurd in the philosophical sense. If we are not perfect, can never be perfect and never will be, and are too weak and feeble to comprehend things as they are, and never can, why should we even bother? We'll never succeed anyway. We'll never be able to progress from wearing a loincloth and scratching at fleas in the dark to wearing boxers and typing at keyboards in the dark. Even if we do manage the little triumphs, so what? 10000 years down the road, who's going to care about what I did anyway?
Well I care, for one, and I care because IT FEELS GOOD TO BE ALIVE.
Nothing personal, but if you're going to assume that you're too dumb or stupid to understand anything and never will, don't also make the mistake of assuming that others are like you. I respect your religion, respect my self-respect and those of others.
So, does premarital sex harm any one in any way? Assuming both partners do not have diagnoses on the DSM-IV, it is safe to say that the act itself does not. Free from the trappings of STD, it would then seem that there isn't anything wrong with premarital sex.
Btw, cheers to the man who raises his daughter up to not have to live with bad sex. Couldn't agree more. Cheers also to aihyah, whom I'm beginning to suspect is someone I know in person. (just from the things she's said.)
amdskip's hinting at a celestial "hotdeal" forum, where different people qualify for different rewards, just makes me sad. Marriage doesn't give you sexual affirmation. If it does, consider help. Marriage is a mere formality declaring to the rest of the people around you, and to the respective legislative entity, what you already know in your heart; You can't wait to share the rest of your life with the wonderful person in front of you. If you need help seeing that, then no amount of philosophical debate is going to help you.
There is nothing immoral about any sex be it in, out n before or after marriage. In fact who gets this idea that sex has anything to do with marriage. As gas as statistics are concerned actually marriage kills sex(over time).
So I would say sex being immoral is just some stupid hipocritic view of fanatic people trying to cut down your freedoms.
Just come to Europe, here we can have sex whenever with noone bitching about it.
So I would say sex being immoral is just some stupid hipocritic view of fanatic people trying to cut down your freedoms.
Just come to Europe, here we can have sex whenever with noone bitching about it.
Purity...innocence...they're felt more than explained. Yeah you want to bang the group out of that blonde girl with the delicious @$$, but what about when your mom was that girl? Would you have wanted the guys back in her time to think about her that way? You have to be a good and upstanding guy because it's beneficial for the general populace and the image of the woman herself.
And anyways, behind closed doors you can have the secret nobody else can...and if she's FREAKY........hehehe.
Tt
And anyways, behind closed doors you can have the secret nobody else can...and if she's FREAKY........hehehe.
Tt
Why do people seem to jump on us if we just want to wait until we are married and follow our belief in God? I am a Roman Catholic. We believe that sex is a gift from God and is only to be shared by married couples. I am not trying to force my belief down other people's throats. This thread was started with a question. We have tried to answer, but it just ended in a nice little argument/flamewar.
This is how what we believe.
Premarital sex is a gift.
It is only to be shared among married couples.
Any form of birth control is sinful, be it condoms, the pill, abortion, etc. b/c these prevent one of the two purposes of sex:
1. It is for procreative purposes.
2. It expresses the deep love between two married people.
When one of the two purposes is not present, sex is considered sinful. The only form of birth control that we believe is right is NFP (natural family planning. Or for those who dont know what it is. Using the woman's cycle to know when she is fertile or infertile.)
This is what we believe. I am not trying to convince anyone that "im better than you or ypu are wrong." He asked why is premarital sex immoral. We only answered with our beliefs.
Premarital sex is immoral because it takes away from the sacredness of sex in a marriage. It is to be shared between a married man and woman.
Consider this:
If you are married and fulfilling the marriage covenant, how do you think your wife/husband would feel if they knew you were thinking about another time with someone else?
This is how what we believe.
Premarital sex is a gift.
It is only to be shared among married couples.
Any form of birth control is sinful, be it condoms, the pill, abortion, etc. b/c these prevent one of the two purposes of sex:
1. It is for procreative purposes.
2. It expresses the deep love between two married people.
When one of the two purposes is not present, sex is considered sinful. The only form of birth control that we believe is right is NFP (natural family planning. Or for those who dont know what it is. Using the woman's cycle to know when she is fertile or infertile.)
This is what we believe. I am not trying to convince anyone that "im better than you or ypu are wrong." He asked why is premarital sex immoral. We only answered with our beliefs.
Premarital sex is immoral because it takes away from the sacredness of sex in a marriage. It is to be shared between a married man and woman.
Consider this:
If you are married and fulfilling the marriage covenant, how do you think your wife/husband would feel if they knew you were thinking about another time with someone else?
No one's jumping on anyone. Everyone participating is doing so in the spirit of debate. It's all good, right?
Now on to the flame-wars! :| MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA ! :| Kiddin' The problem with these discussions of morality is that religious faith is inevitably dragged into the picture. I understand that for most people, it is only natural, since morality and religion are intimately enmeshed. For atheists like myself, however, the tendency is to ask that others leave religion out of it and discuss it from a purely logical and objective standpoint, instead of throwing quotes and beliefs around the place.
"Any form of birth control is sinful, be it condoms, the pill, abortion, etc. b/c these prevent one of the two purposes of sex"
Always wondered about that. So what happens to rape victims who get impregnated?
Because the Bible said so. Obviously.
No seriously...if you are not religious (and thus have your morals set for you), you have to decide your own. Which admittedly can be a bit of a problem at times.
No seriously...if you are not religious (and thus have your morals set for you), you have to decide your own. Which admittedly can be a bit of a problem at times.
<< One thing I wanna add about sex as being a gift. I saw monkeys in Central Park going at it even with all the people watching them. They are REALLY enjoying that gift, if it really is a gift?!?! >>
don't monkeys also throw their own feces at each other?
anyways, not that i'm defending sex as being a gift but to compare us to monkeys just because we're both primates is just silly.
Red Dawn
Elite Member
- Jun 4, 2001
- 57,529
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<< ? I am a Roman Catholic. We believe that sex is a gift from God and is only to be shared by married couples >>
The Roman Catholic Church is a fine one to talk about morality. Listening to them talk about morality is like having Charles Manson give you a guided tour of all the Stars Houses in Hollywood.
<< Always wondered about that. So what happens to rape victims who get impregnated? >>
She must have the baby and then:
A. Raise it
B. Give it up for adoption.
More then likely the 2nd option is most honored.
Red Dawn
Elite Member
- Jun 4, 2001
- 57,529
- 3
- 0
<< not that i'm defending sex as being a gift but to compare us to monkeys just because we're both primates is just silly. >>
No kidding, when was the last time there was a documented case of a monkey having emotional hangups about sex because of some archiac religous beliefs?
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