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Camless Engines

R

RU482

Lifer
I just read an article about a company called Valeo that is working on Camless gasoline Engine technology. Basically, the cam and valve system is replaced by an electonically controlled valve system.

The results:
20% less emissions
35% greater fuel economy

Availability:
2008-09

Anyone heard of this before?
 
Solenoid valves have been talked about for a long time. Basically, they're expensive and require a much higher voltage electrical system.
 
that's interesting. until it breaks.
edit- it may be interesting in the application of interference engines, as in there is probably reduced risk of engine damage due to the lack of chain or belt to break.
 
Originally posted by: Vic
Solenoid valves have been talked about for a long time. Basically, they're expensive and require a much higher voltage electrical system.
Click to expand...


They have been successfully used in engines a decade ago in test situations and like you say they require more volts.....48 to be axact, so until there is a 48 volt battery and compatible system in a car they are not likely to see production.
 
Originally posted by: godmare
that's interesting. until it breaks.
edit- it may be interesting in the application of interference engines, as in there is probably reduced risk of engine damage due to the lack of chain or belt to break.
Click to expand...

Or maybe a greater risk if one of those solenoids sticks open. I would definitely have another reason not to buy a new car when this tech first starts hitting the market.

Also those numbers seem a little unrealistic, yes you are getting rid of one parasitic loss, but generating electricity also saps power from the engine.
 
Yeah, it's pretty much the next big step in the engine world.

Electromagnetically actuated valves would pretty much revolutionize the engine.

It is very, VERY complicaed though. It requires very large, strong electromagnets that use quite a bit of energy. Hence the need for a voltage system other than 12V.

Think about it. The intake valve on a 4 cycle engine opens 25 times per second at 6,000RPM. Once every 0.04 seconds.

Now, you can't just slam the valve opened and closed, or it will quickly pound itself to death. It has to be opened as quickly as possible, but set down gently. All in 0.04 seconds(At 6,000RPM).

But... the advantages are tremendous. Theoretically, such a system could offer infinitely variable valve timing, which is somewhat of a holy grail in the engine world.

If they can really do it by 2008-9, :thumbsup:
 
Originally posted by: godmare
Originally posted by: redly1
higher voltage like the long talked about 42V, or way higher?
Click to expand...

I expect the voltage could be reduced with development, no?
Click to expand...


Then you would be running into crazy high amperage. The amperage draw on many modern cars with heated seats/mirrors, power everything, etc. is already getting extremely high. I would guess compatibility problems are the #1 reason we are still using 12v.
 
Originally posted by: Captain_Howdy
Originally posted by: godmare
that's interesting. until it breaks.
edit- it may be interesting in the application of interference engines, as in there is probably reduced risk of engine damage due to the lack of chain or belt to break.
Click to expand...

Or maybe a greater risk if one of those solenoids sticks open. I would definitely have another reason not to buy a new car when this tech first starts hitting the market.

Also those numbers seem a little unrealistic, yes you are getting rid of one parasitic loss, but generating electricity also saps power from the engine.
Click to expand...
It's not the parasitic loss, it's the ability of the computer to infintely vary the valve timing.

Until the advent of systems like VTEC, the cam had to be ground with a specific RPM range in mind. Anything above or below that specific RPM is less efficient.

And even these systems only allow one change in valve timing. If you could vary it on the fly throughout the whole range, you instantly gain MUCH efficiency.
 
Originally posted by: Eli
Originally posted by: Captain_Howdy
Originally posted by: godmare
that's interesting. until it breaks.
edit- it may be interesting in the application of interference engines, as in there is probably reduced risk of engine damage due to the lack of chain or belt to break.
Click to expand...

Or maybe a greater risk if one of those solenoids sticks open. I would definitely have another reason not to buy a new car when this tech first starts hitting the market.

Also those numbers seem a little unrealistic, yes you are getting rid of one parasitic loss, but generating electricity also saps power from the engine.
Click to expand...
It's not the parasitic loss, it's the ability of the computer to infintely vary the valve timing.

Until the advent of systems like VTEC, the cam had to be ground with a specific RPM range in mind. Anything above or below that specific RPM is less efficient.
Click to expand...


I did not think of this, I know that variable valve timing systems have improved leaps and bounds, but isn't VTEC the only system that changes lift? (With the extra cam lobe) As far as I know, VVT-i, VANOS, MIVEC, etc. can only change valve timing, and not lift.

Just read your edit, but all those systems I mentioned above allow for continual valve timing adjustments. VTEC only allows for one adjustment because it is "like" having an extra set of cams that can be switched on or off depending on your RPM. Most VTEC engines engage the "hot cams" or cam in the 5-6k RPM range.
 
Originally posted by: Captain_Howdy
Originally posted by: Eli
Originally posted by: Captain_Howdy
Originally posted by: godmare
that's interesting. until it breaks.
edit- it may be interesting in the application of interference engines, as in there is probably reduced risk of engine damage due to the lack of chain or belt to break.
Click to expand...

Or maybe a greater risk if one of those solenoids sticks open. I would definitely have another reason not to buy a new car when this tech first starts hitting the market.

Also those numbers seem a little unrealistic, yes you are getting rid of one parasitic loss, but generating electricity also saps power from the engine.
Click to expand...
It's not the parasitic loss, it's the ability of the computer to infintely vary the valve timing.

Until the advent of systems like VTEC, the cam had to be ground with a specific RPM range in mind. Anything above or below that specific RPM is less efficient.
Click to expand...


I did not think of this, I know that variable valve timing systems have improved leaps and bounds, but isn't VTEC the only system that changes lift? (With the extra cam lobe) As far as I know, VVT-i, VANOS, MIVEC, etc. can only change valve timing, and not lift.

Just read your edit, but all those systems I mentioned above allow for continual valve timing adjustments. VTEC only allows for one adjustment because it is "like" having an extra set of cams that can be switched on or off depending on your RPM. Most VTEC engines engage the "hot cams" or cam in the 5-6k RPM range.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I dunno much about the specific systems in use today. 😱

But theoretically with electromagnetically actauged valves, you could make the timing, duration AND lift anything you wanted it to be. It really would be a quantumn leap forward.

/gets excited just thinking about it
 
Originally posted by: Eli
Originally posted by: Captain_Howdy
Originally posted by: Eli
Originally posted by: Captain_Howdy
Originally posted by: godmare
that's interesting. until it breaks.
edit- it may be interesting in the application of interference engines, as in there is probably reduced risk of engine damage due to the lack of chain or belt to break.
Click to expand...

Or maybe a greater risk if one of those solenoids sticks open. I would definitely have another reason not to buy a new car when this tech first starts hitting the market.

Also those numbers seem a little unrealistic, yes you are getting rid of one parasitic loss, but generating electricity also saps power from the engine.
Click to expand...
It's not the parasitic loss, it's the ability of the computer to infintely vary the valve timing.

Until the advent of systems like VTEC, the cam had to be ground with a specific RPM range in mind. Anything above or below that specific RPM is less efficient.
Click to expand...


I did not think of this, I know that variable valve timing systems have improved leaps and bounds, but isn't VTEC the only system that changes lift? (With the extra cam lobe) As far as I know, VVT-i, VANOS, MIVEC, etc. can only change valve timing, and not lift.

Just read your edit, but all those systems I mentioned above allow for continual valve timing adjustments. VTEC only allows for one adjustment because it is "like" having an extra set of cams that can be switched on or off depending on your RPM. Most VTEC engines engage the "hot cams" or cam in the 5-6k RPM range.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I dunno much about the specific systems in use today. 😱

But theoretically with electromagnetically actauged valves, you could make the timing, duration AND lift anything you wanted it to be. It really would be a quantumn leap forward.

/gets excited just thinking about it
Click to expand...


It will definitely be nice after it matures, but I can predict quite a few initial bugs to work out. I definitely won't miss changing timing belts, of course thats what I get for owning a Honda and working on other peoples Honda's. :thumbsup: At least they have finally started to use timing chains in the K series motors. 😛
 
Originally posted by: Captain_Howdy
Originally posted by: Eli
Originally posted by: Captain_Howdy
Originally posted by: Eli
Originally posted by: Captain_Howdy
Originally posted by: godmare
that's interesting. until it breaks.
edit- it may be interesting in the application of interference engines, as in there is probably reduced risk of engine damage due to the lack of chain or belt to break.
Click to expand...

Or maybe a greater risk if one of those solenoids sticks open. I would definitely have another reason not to buy a new car when this tech first starts hitting the market.

Also those numbers seem a little unrealistic, yes you are getting rid of one parasitic loss, but generating electricity also saps power from the engine.
Click to expand...
It's not the parasitic loss, it's the ability of the computer to infintely vary the valve timing.

Until the advent of systems like VTEC, the cam had to be ground with a specific RPM range in mind. Anything above or below that specific RPM is less efficient.
Click to expand...


I did not think of this, I know that variable valve timing systems have improved leaps and bounds, but isn't VTEC the only system that changes lift? (With the extra cam lobe) As far as I know, VVT-i, VANOS, MIVEC, etc. can only change valve timing, and not lift.

Just read your edit, but all those systems I mentioned above allow for continual valve timing adjustments. VTEC only allows for one adjustment because it is "like" having an extra set of cams that can be switched on or off depending on your RPM. Most VTEC engines engage the "hot cams" or cam in the 5-6k RPM range.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I dunno much about the specific systems in use today. 😱

But theoretically with electromagnetically actauged valves, you could make the timing, duration AND lift anything you wanted it to be. It really would be a quantumn leap forward.

/gets excited just thinking about it
Click to expand...


It will definitely be nice after it matures, but I can predict quite a few initial bugs to work out. I definitely won't miss changing timing belts, of course thats what I get for owning a Honda and working on other peoples Honda's. :thumbsup: At least they have finally started to use timing chains in the K series motors. 😛
Click to expand...

It's definitely possible.

The bugs will be there but that shouldn't detract many hopefulls...

I don't think EFI didn't happened overnight
 
In theory a complete variable valve timing control system can be done with cam, tensioner control to adjust the phase, and some hydraulic lifter to adjust the duration. You don't need solenoid valve to achieve that maximum gain.

On the other hand, solenoid valve can't rev much higher than 6000rpm with today's technology.
 
Originally posted by: PandaBear
In theory a complete variable valve timing control system can be done with cam, tensioner control to adjust the phase, and some hydraulic lifter to adjust the duration. You don't need solenoid valve to achieve that maximum gain.

On the other hand, solenoid valve can't rev much higher than 6000rpm with today's technology.
Click to expand...


The problem is still that lift will be determined by the profile of the cam lobe. They really have some kinks to work out if solenoids can't rev past 6K, that kind of makes the infinite valve system moot. Contrasted with some modified VTEC (car)motors that make power all the way to 10K and still have a smooth idle.
 
Originally posted by: Captain_Howdy
Originally posted by: PandaBear
In theory a complete variable valve timing control system can be done with cam, tensioner control to adjust the phase, and some hydraulic lifter to adjust the duration. You don't need solenoid valve to achieve that maximum gain.

On the other hand, solenoid valve can't rev much higher than 6000rpm with today's technology.
Click to expand...


The problem is still that lift will be determined by the profile of the cam lobe. They really have some kinks to work out if solenoids can't rev past 6K, that kind of makes the infinite valve system moot. Contrasted with some modified VTEC (car)motors that make power all the way to 10K and still have a smooth idle.
Click to expand...
Meh, most cars redline at somewhere between 5-6k anyway.. although of course there are exceptions.

But yeah.
 
Originally posted by: Captain_Howdy
Originally posted by: PandaBear
In theory a complete variable valve timing control system can be done with cam, tensioner control to adjust the phase, and some hydraulic lifter to adjust the duration. You don't need solenoid valve to achieve that maximum gain.

On the other hand, solenoid valve can't rev much higher than 6000rpm with today's technology.
Click to expand...


The problem is still that lift will be determined by the profile of the cam lobe. They really have some kinks to work out if solenoids can't rev past 6K, that kind of makes the infinite valve system moot. Contrasted with some modified VTEC (car)motors that make power all the way to 10K and still have a smooth idle.
Click to expand...

Aren't these the same valvetrain that goes on Formula 1 engines? If so, those rev to 18,000+ RPM. Hmm, maybe its electrohydraulic. Must be a different tech.

Giving more though, wouldn't forcing lower revs be better? You won't need as high performance of components. There would (erm, should) be less noise/vibration/harshness. If they can make it so that they can adjust the powerband on the fly, then what difference does it make what the peak RPM is?
 
Originally posted by: Eli
Originally posted by: Captain_Howdy
Originally posted by: Eli
Originally posted by: Captain_Howdy
Originally posted by: godmare
that's interesting. until it breaks.
edit- it may be interesting in the application of interference engines, as in there is probably reduced risk of engine damage due to the lack of chain or belt to break.
Click to expand...

Or maybe a greater risk if one of those solenoids sticks open. I would definitely have another reason not to buy a new car when this tech first starts hitting the market.

Also those numbers seem a little unrealistic, yes you are getting rid of one parasitic loss, but generating electricity also saps power from the engine.
Click to expand...
It's not the parasitic loss, it's the ability of the computer to infintely vary the valve timing.

Until the advent of systems like VTEC, the cam had to be ground with a specific RPM range in mind. Anything above or below that specific RPM is less efficient.
Click to expand...


I did not think of this, I know that variable valve timing systems have improved leaps and bounds, but isn't VTEC the only system that changes lift? (With the extra cam lobe) As far as I know, VVT-i, VANOS, MIVEC, etc. can only change valve timing, and not lift.

Just read your edit, but all those systems I mentioned above allow for continual valve timing adjustments. VTEC only allows for one adjustment because it is "like" having an extra set of cams that can be switched on or off depending on your RPM. Most VTEC engines engage the "hot cams" or cam in the 5-6k RPM range.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I dunno much about the specific systems in use today. 😱

But theoretically with electromagnetically actauged valves, you could make the timing, duration AND lift anything you wanted it to be. It really would be a quantumn leap forward.

/gets excited just thinking about it
Click to expand...

Most perfomance oriented VTEC applications now use iVTEC, which is less 'On of Off' than the original system (Had an Original VTEC, such a hoot when it changed cams!)

/0
 
F1 cars and I think some supercars already use hydraulic systems for the valves. It allows for different engine timings, etc on the fly, even being able to change at different RPM. More complicated, but with many advantages.
 
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