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Camcording: $900 budget, need lights, microphones, etc.

C

Coldkilla

Diamond Member
Update: I'm now looking for parts to buy under a $900 budget. Here's the updated question:
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New Question

Alright. Say I purchase the steady cam setup. Based off of a ~900$ budget what would you recommend? I'd personally prefer miniDV digital, but can compromise.

The 900 must include: Proper sound, as I do agree that sound is the most important factor. Also, proper lighting. I can always purchase a cheap and improvised lighting setup with tin foil or something to save money. The XLR adaptor so I can use my XLR microphones as boom mics. And of course, the camcorder.

What I currently have:

1. 12 Beta 58 microphones.
2. 5 Condenser microphones.
3. 15 boom microphone stands.
4. Sony Vegas + Adobe After Effects + Adobe Premiere.

What I need:
1. (2) Wireless microphone setups. (How can I hide these from the camera?)
2. A camcorder (Prefer MiniDV but can compromise).
3. The correct adapters to have this sound equipment fit in with the camcorder.
4. A steady cam kit. (Provided in previous posts).
5. Lighting
6. Any other recommendations.

I'm basically a serious and committed beginner. I've made videos before. Example 1. Example 2 (Another Game, nothing I'm proud of).. But these examples show no use of a physical camcorder. I've been making "game movies" as a hobby for about 6 years, and would like to branch out.

Also would like to know: Is it the editing software or the camcorder, that can adjust how a dark scene will look. If I'm shooting a scene in the moon light, how can I be sure that the recorded product isn't pitch black? (Like for example: Scary Movies, look good at night, even without "night vision" mode.).

==================================================
Previous main question:

I'm looking to invest 900 in a new camcorder and accessories. I plan on creating a few films for the film festival we have here in town. However, I'd like to know what accessories would help me.

I'm looking for wireless mic's, but am unsure wether having each character having a wireless mic is better, or spending the money on one boom microphone. I own a lot of music high quality microphones, but don't know how I'd go about connecting it to the camcorder, or if I need a "special" kind.

Also, major productions use train tracks, and camera cranes. How could I emulate those effects? I'd like the camera to move in on a house for example, coming from 7 feet in the air, to 4 feet. Meanwhile its moving forward at about 6 inches per second. Holding a camera by hand will make it seem too much like a "home movie", and many tripods aren't very smooth when you are adjusting the hight while recording. Not to mention the surface the tripod is on may be cement and will not be smooth at all.

Any tips would be appreciated. Thanks.

Sending your thread to digital and video cameras forum - Anandtech Moderator DrPizza
 
Making your own "Train Tracks" is pretty easy from what I gather, a friend of mine does video production for a living and he used pvc pipe for his. Also, the cranes arent hard either
 
Interesting. I may purchase something like that. I'll check that out in more depth once I am ready to buy my new camcorder.

How can one build their own tracks/cranes? Seems like its pretty expensive.
 
OK. I'm going to back you up for a minute: are you looking at a total budget of $900 for everything? Either way, here is the order I suggest you approach purchases, regardless of your budget:

1. Camera
2. Sound gear - sound is 70% of film/video whether you know it or not. This includes mics as well as boom poles/shockmounts/etc.
3. Lighting gear - With proper sound, proper lighting will put you miles above the competition.
4. Tripod - not a crappy wal-mart job.
Those 4 are REQUIREMENTS for quality and MUST buys off the bat. Next you have:
5. Camera support (tracks, cranes, steadycam, etc)
6. Accessories - camera bag, filters, batteries, cables, etc. (this is much more expensive than it sounds)
7. Editing software. I put this way down here as I assume you have something in place already. If not, you can get by with basic editing if you teach yourself how to shoot well. I call myself a "purist", and often shoot for my shot and do very little in the way of editing - it all depends on your style. But this is where you get into after effects for serious work.

I'll answer the questions in your post, now that I've said my piece: 😀

Wireless vs. boom mic is up to you. Wired mics are more reliable, and generally better quality when compared to wireless in the same price range. Will you have a sound person to operate the boom mic? Are you willing to invest in the cable extensions for a wired mic.? Put together a bunch of scenarios in your head and decide if each scene is better off with wireless or a wired mics. Of course, it's always nice to have both!

The "train tracks" you mentioned are called "dolly tracks" - you can find dollies (basically a flat board with wheels that run on tracks, or have wheels on board to pull across the ground). You can search for the do-it-yourself instructions as well. These are expensive otherwise. The truly ghetto dolly is a guy being pushed in a wheelchair.

As for a crane, you can't really mimic a crane shot unless you use...well...a crane. Trust me, the cheap one's you'll find on ebay are crap. Don't waste your money. Again, these are quite expensive but I've seen instructions to build them yourself.

Basically the shot you described is what you could call an "expensive shot"... if there were a way to cut corners and make it look great, everyone would do it.

Feel free to PM me if you want to chat about your plans... also visit sites like dvxuser.com and dvinfo.net/conf ... these are video forums loaded with professionals and amateurs alike - both are great resources!!
 
Interesting Compudork 🙂

I'll pull up some links and see what you think. But I'm just a little confused. I have microphone stands that can be used as a 'boom microphone', I've also got 'beta 58' microphone's all over my band's studio. My question is: How exactly is this wired directly into the camcorder, and if it is instead sent directly to a computer, how I would go about this.
 
Ditto on what Compudork told you.

Additional notes... You need XLR connections for using good mics. A shotgun on a boom pole is where you get it. There are some cheap homemades with extension poles. A MikesMuff is an inexpensive wind killer, but WalMart monster fur is the homemade solution. XLR can come into a normal camera with Mic in via a Beachtek or one of their competitors. That includes wireless too.

I hang at DVInfo Net. Oh, and check out sonnyboo.com for fun free indie movie maker stuff.

GTG
 
Originally posted by: Coldkilla
Interesting Compudork 🙂

I'll pull up some links and see what you think. But I'm just a little confused. I have microphone stands that can be used as a 'boom microphone', I've also got 'beta 58' microphone's all over my band's studio. My question is: How exactly is this wired directly into the camcorder, and if it is instead sent directly to a computer, how I would go about this.
Click to expand...

Let me clarify some terms, just so I'm sure we're on the same page. A boom microphone, is usually a shotgun style mic, designed for directional, "log distance" pickup. A microphone boom, is the pole apparatus that you can use to follow the action and keep the mic close to the actors.

Stands could work assuming the talent is not moving. For instance, I can use a mic stand if I'm shooting a sit down interview - but if you have a person walking and talking, or some natural movement between two people talking, you'll notice really unbalance levels from the mic fading in and out if you have it fixed on a stand - whereas if you have a boom operator (sound guy) he can follow the person(s) with dialogue and keep the mic close. Even with a really good boom mic, you always want it as close to the talent as humanly possible (without getting in the frame!). I'm not familiar with the beta 58 mics, or studio band mics for that matter - if you have enough of them, and they have good range you might be able to mix them to make them work.

As for putting sound into a computer - that seems like unnecessary work, especially if you're just starting (I've never done this - it's straight to camera or a mixer for me!).

But to get the mics into the camera, first I need to know what type of outputs they have...XLR I assume?? I'm guessing in your price range, you'll have a camera with a standard stereo mini plug - this would require an onboard adapter. As gsellis said, Beachtek is a good brand for this. Check out This link for some of the top budget brands - Beachtek, Sign Video and Studio 1.

And just an FYI - you'll find there's never a "right" answer, each job will require a different technique and setup, just always do your best with what you have and learn from your mistakes. After years of experience, I still find I learn something new at every shoot and during every editing session, if I didn't I'd think I was doing something wrong!
 
This has been updated in main post:

Alright. Say I purchase the steady cam setup. Based off of a ~900$ budget what would you recommend? I'd personally prefer miniDV digital, but can compromise.

The 900 must include: Proper sound, as I do agree that sound is the most important factor. Also, proper lighting. I can always purchase a cheap and improvised lighting setup with tin foil or something to save money. The XLR adaptor so I can use my XLR microphones as boom mics. And of course, the camcorder.

What I currently have:

1. 12 Beta 58 microphones.
2. 5 Condenser microphones.
3. 15 boom microphone stands.
4. Sony Vegas + Adobe After Effects + Adobe Premiere.

What I need:
1. (2) Wireless microphone setups. (How can I hide these from the camera?)
2. A camcorder (Prefer MiniDV but can compromise).
3. The correct adapters to have this sound equipment fit in with the camcorder.
4. A steady cam kit. (Provided in previous posts).
5. Lighting
6. Any other recommendations.

I'm basically a serious and committed beginner. I've made videos before. Example 1. Example 2 (Another Game, nothing I'm proud of).. But these examples show no use of a physical camcorder. I've been making "game movies" as a hobby for about 6 years, and would like to branch out.

Also would like to know:

1. Is it the editing software or the camcorder, that can adjust how a dark scene will look. If I'm shooting a scene in the moon light, how can I be sure that the recorded product isn't pitch black? (Like for example: Scary Movies, look good at night, even without "night vision" mode.).
2. Will my microphones need any sort of "buffer" attached to them to muffle the outside sound? My Microphones
 
Your budget is killing me!

Do some reading at

Sonnyboo

Lighting on the cheap and lots of killer tips at

Scott Spears

Good links

My diversity A-T wireless was $500. My lighting kit was $700. My Beachtek was $300. My A-T stereo shotgun was $650.

The Pannie 320 has mini mic in, which is a must. Under $400.

Steady cam... I have a Glidecam 2000. It is under $500, but too lazy at the moment to hunt down a price. You can build if you are crafty. But do know that it takes practice. I have about 50 hours with one, so I can do well IF I have been practicing with it. You need a lightweight rig with a light camera. Without the quick release mount on it, it was at the minimum it could handle with my HC7.
 
And I'm sure your idea of a legitimate hobby includes spending over $2,500. Your nuts. A $500 dollar camera, $200 on wireless mics, some cheap house lights with a reflective surface, and a $14 dollar improvised steady cam.

When I've seen some rough projects with the money I spent, I then will determine to make this an expensive venture or just stop entirely.
 
Originally posted by: Coldkilla
And I'm sure your idea of a legitimate hobby includes spending over $2,500. Your nuts. A $500 dollar camera, $200 on wireless mics, some cheap house lights with a reflective surface, and a $14 dollar improvised steady cam.

When I've seen some rough projects with the money I spent, I then will determine to make this an expensive venture or just stop entirely.
Click to expand...

gsellis is spot on on cost. Now of course, there is a lot of variation and work arounds, but if you think video is anything but an incredibly expensive hobby, think again. It's a lot like restoring cars - if you want it done right, it'll cost a lot of money - but some people don't need perfection, they settle for "good enough". We're telling you to restore that car with thousand dollar matching color paints, you say that's crazy and insist that spray paint will do fine.

Now, I'm really not trying to be condescending, just want to explain how it looks on our end. Everyone who wants to get into video has the same attitude. Trust me, I was a poor college student, and I wanted my own gear. I went out and bought everything in the price ranges you suggest (against everyone else's advice) and it was all crap. At the end of the day I ended up wasting more money by trying to save too much.

However, you have to understand, we're the type of people that have done this stuff for a while, and while I can't speak for gsellis, I do it professionally as well. It's our passion and we take it very seriously. So it's hard to address how far you want to take the "hobby". I know people who throw together little skits, and it doesn't matter that it sounds great or look perfect - while others take a more professional approach to their hobby - that also determines how much you should spend.

The best thing you can do, is save your money. Don't think you need to buy everything now - buy as many quality components as you can, as you have the money for them. In the long run this will save you tons over buying cheap and then replacing it because it works poorly. So here's what I suggest:

1. Go as cheap as possible for a decent camcorder.
I know this may seem like the most important part of the video - but trust me, I'd rather have a less capable camera and better mics/lights/support gear than a great camera with lower quality accessories. Look around for a Panasonic GS300/GS320 on ebay. These are decent 3-CCD cameras, and for the price give you the best picture. If you get into video, then you'll probably want to invest in a MUCH more expensive unit. If you can try to snag something with extra batteries...
COST: $250-300

2. Get an XLR adapter
Before buying ANYTHING else (other than the camera). Use your current mics A LOT and see if they will work for you. On your budget, you should wait on the wireless mics. Because, at $200, you are guaranteed crap. Trust me. What good is a mic if you get a lot of interference and static? Because that's what you'll get at $100 a pop. Save the money.

I will assume you already have XLR cables with your existing mics. So that'll save you a bunch of cash.
COST: $150-200

3. Lighting gear.
I know people who buy work lights from Lowes/Home Depot and use those. These are certainly not as flexible as "professional" grade lights. Take a look around for two brands: Lowel and Britek. I've only used lowel, but these things are fantastic at the price. Granted, some kits run $3000+, but look around for some used stuff, and see what you can find. Remmeber these things need stands and bulbs, so if you buy used - factor in the costs.
COST: $100-300 (depending on the route you take, this is for what I would consider a "partial kit" that you can add to later).

4. Tripod
This is something you can use for a loooong time. I'd look at investing in a decent Bogen/Manfrotto tripod. You'll look at 100-500-1000 dollar price tages and think I'm crazy, but this isn't the plastic crap at Wal-Mart. Additionally, if you invest in a crane, you'll need something hardcore to handle the load.
COST: $100-200

I would say invest more in lights/sound. Because you can get quality stuff used, AND they retain their value. I've bought used gear before and sold it at a profit years later when I upgraded. Cameras on the other hand, drop value quickly, so I'd start our cheaper on that end until you decide you want to invest more.

To answer your questions in a previous post:

1. Shooting a dark scene is both in camera and editing. However, if you think you can shoot well in the dark, you're wrong. You need lighting set up, even for night scenes. Look up information on shooting "day for night", might be the best way for you. You actually shoot in decent light so you have good color/contrast, then edit to make it look like night time.

2. A mic cover is called a "wind screen", I have no idea what's available to fit your mic - but they do have a lght duty one listed under "accessories" on the page you linked to.

OK. I think that about covers my long-winded answer for now.... 😀
 
A couple of links

Rostronics - Britek lighting at rock bottom prices - I have the 1500w kit

Link to my kit - $500 new

Craigslist for cheaper? This gives you Hollywood style lighting. At minimum, you need a key and a reflector (fill). For greenscreen, you need a key, fill, a backlight (to kill green spill on the actor/objects), a light(s) on the screen (those $20 Home Depot Halogen worklamps with the grills removed are a bonus!)

I mentioned Scott Spears, here is his sticked thread in DVInfo on lighting.

http://forums.anandtech.com/me...=2099736&enterthread=y

The above link has tips even on using mobile battery units for remote power, which comes in handy for remote sites and lighting. You may be even able to rent at THD or Lowe's. Better than a generator as no noise. You could use in combination with a generator using the generator to keep it charged during long shots. This would be something for your second or third feature 😉

Why lighting is important. Watch for this next time you see something you like in a movie. The faces are well lit with no muddy color (requires a key). There are no sharp shadows (fill). Their hair shines (back light). You can cheat with a key and a reflector ($99 new, but you can improvize with foam board). The $99 gets you a silver, white, diffuse, and gold reflector - check at Rostronics as they may have a cheaper set now that I think about it. Gold? Instant Tan! Diffuse? Using sunlight, a less pronounced fill. You can use your friends to hold, or stands, c clamps and c47 clamps (aka clothes pins).

BTW, I usually shoot event or POV stuff that has no control over the lighting. The last lighting shot I did was for a Peidmont Park fundraiser where I got to shoot in a tiny office with Mr. Doubletalk Durwood Fincher (While he gave me some leeway, he owns the rights to his work, so I won't post his interviews that I did with a stop/start "live edit" for playback on site). 2 Softboxes and the blinds as a backlight reflector with my $650 shotgun as an interview mic with gaffers tape on it to kill the handling noise. Improvising will always happen.

The cheapest commercial wind killer Mike Muff. Use it with the foam. If there is no wind leaking (I use a rubberband across the velcro), it works to about 30-35 mph on my shotgun. WalMart Monster Fur is the homegrown version with you doing the sewing. But you need to use the foam in conjunction with it to get max effect. Then there are zepplins made with 2 l coke bottles that work well too. Start hanging with some of the audio crowd for more (DVInfo, Indie sites, etc.)

On XLR, there are some cables for powered mics, but the XLR to mini cables are notorius for picking up interference. You cannot fix everything in post! Cablesforless and a couple of the other places you can find by searching for "Monster Cable" in Anandtech have cheap XLR cable that will deliver minimal noise it you need longer cables.

gtg

 
Originally posted by: Coldkilla
The Panasonic GS320 doesn't have an external microphone jack. The GS300 does, should I go with that?
Click to expand...
Go with the 300. I swear I saw Mic In on the specs at a popular camera store site the other day. You definitely need mic in and really would want headphone out too.
 
Originally posted by: Compudork
Originally posted by: Coldkilla
Interesting Compudork 🙂
But to get the mics into the camera, first I need to know what type of outputs they have...XLR I assume?? I'm guessing in your price range, you'll have a camera with a standard stereo mini plug - this would require an onboard adapter. As gsellis said, Beachtek is a good brand for this. Check out This link for some of the top budget brands - Beachtek, Sign Video and Studio 1.
Click to expand...

Check out these camcorder XLR adapters from juicedLink:
juicedLink products

They integrate a low-noise preamp. It allows you to reduce the camcorder hiss while recording fine audio detail. There is a demo video comparing with some of the Beachtek products here:
juicedLink Demo Video
Click to expand...
 
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