Calm. Reborn PennyTibz creation-evolution thread.

zod

Senior member
Oct 10, 1999
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EDIT: Title changed for those doing searches.

The last thread was deleted. I think we should be allowed to have [yet another] calm discussion on this matter, since many truly do not know.

In response to Penny's 8 questions.

PennyTibz -

Where to start. Funny, because I already have one of these threads going on ATOT. First everyone needs to learn the difference between INDUCTIVE and DEDUCTIVE reasoning. On to your questions.

1. Evolution is only a theory. It is not a fact or a scientific law.
Those two terms are pretty much the same thing. In science (not spoken English) a theory is a hypothesis that has been confirmed through repeated experimental tests. Read - Models, Hypotheses, Theories (scientific method)

2. Natural Selection is only one component of the evolutionary process. But it is in no way circular. Explain how it is.

3. Evolution is unscientific
Modern Evolutionary Theory has been reached through the scientific method by millions of independant researchers over 100 years and from dozens of countries and affiliations.

4. Increasingly, scientists doubt the truth of evolution.
Untrue, find me one peer reviewed article that claims this.

5. The disagreements among even evolutionary biologists show how little solid science supports evolution
Evolutionary Biologists argue about the methods of evolution, not the entire theory.

6. If humans descended from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?
If you decended from your grandfather, why is your 2nd cousin still around? Follow?

7. Evolution cannot explain how life first appeared on earth.
Nor does it try to.

8. To be left to the physicists and chemists of the world, not the anthropologists.



Keep it calm people, let's just enlighten those who have been taught half truths.

I'll allow this but if it turns into another flaming thread or if Penny Tibz uses it to evangelize again I will lock it!.
 

PennyTibz

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May 31, 2002
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1st things first.

It's kinda strange how my thread was deleted, huh? Kinda cool that I printed it out and have proof of everything, though :).

And HOLY MOLY! Man! You friggin changed my 8 questions! HAHA. Those are not even the same 8 questions that I asked in the first place! But, I will answer those 1 by 1.

"1. Evolution is only a theory. It is not a fact or a scientific law.
Those two terms are pretty much the same thing. In science (not spoken English) a theory is a hypothesis that has been confirmed through repeated experimental tests. Read - Models, Hypotheses, Theories (scientific method)"

Evolution is a theory. OK. I just wanted to point out the theory does not = scientific law. Theories are not proven. Scientific laws are proven. That's a big difference...actually it's the opposite.

"2. Natural Selection is only one component of the evolutionary process. But it is in no way circular. Explain how it is."

Not ONCE did I say that naturual selection is circular reasoning. Natural selection was designed by God. It has nothing to do with Evolution. It has a lot to do with science, though. The 2 are not interchangable.

"3. Evolution is unscientific
Modern Evolutionary Theory has been reached through the scientific method by millions of independant researchers over 100 years and from dozens of countries and affiliations."

Exactly, it isn't. It's based on the big bang theory for the beginning of the universe, and the big bang theory is based on spontaneous generation, which has already been proven to not be true.

"4. Increasingly, scientists doubt the truth of evolution.
Untrue, find me one peer reviewed article that claims this."

Not ONCE did I say that. I even said that increasingly, MORE scientists believe in evolution. And the reason for that, is that the government pushes propoganda in the text books, that little 5 year old kids read, and that practically forces them to believe it. It's pushing a religion down their throats.

"5. The disagreements among even evolutionary biologists show how little solid science supports evolution
Evolutionary Biologists argue about the methods of evolution, not the entire theory."
Biology and Evolution have nothing to do with each other. Science is proven, Evolution is not. Biology should be the study of things we can see, hear, feel, etc. We can't see Evolution.

"6. If humans descended from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?
If you decended from your grandfather, why is your 2nd cousin still around? Follow?"

Answer: "OK, so evolution says they have a common ancester. I've never seen a monkey give birth to something that isn't a monkey. And I've never seen a human give birth to something that isn't a human. Monkeys and humans don't have a common ancester, and there is no proof of it. Animals give forth to their own kind. They never have an offspring that isn't like them. It may *adapt* to its surroundings better and faster than its parents do, but I still haven't seen a Monkey give birth to something that isn't a monkey, or seen proof of it."

"7. Evolution cannot explain how life first appeared on earth.
Nor does it try to."

So you're saying "Evolution doesn't care how life first appeared on Earth?" Christianity provides an answer for this, but Evolution cannot. Evolution says that life begain with the Big Bang. Something came from nothing - literally. That's spontaneous generation, which has been proven to already not be true.

"8. To be left to the physicists and chemists of the world, not the anthropologists."

This is not a question.

Furthermore, I'd like to say....

NOT ONE of these 8 questions/comments were the ones that I asked.

Tibor



 

Cyberian

Diamond Member
Jun 17, 2000
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This is good.
I don't think we ever had a discussion about Evolution and Creationism here at ATOT.
 

zod

Senior member
Oct 10, 1999
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Sorry, i must have read someone else mis-quoting your questions.
Repost a shortened version of them if you can.
 

PennyTibz

Member
May 31, 2002
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I can't remember ALL of the questions. But here are some of the questions. There is also an extra question in here that was not in the original 8. Not all 8 of the questions were about Evolution. Some were about other off topic things that Evolution cannot explain.

1) If Christianity is false, then why have there been so many prophecies from the Bible that are already fulfilled? The Jews returned to their homeland. The Jews are outnumbered approx. 20 to 1, and they are still the most powerful nation in the area. There have been more earthquakes in the past 10 years than there were in the entire past 200 years. "The Mark of the Beast" - is here right now. It's a microchip that can hold all personally information of any person in a single, small chip - all bank account info, credit info, SS#, address, contact information. The rise of the NWO is also prophecied in the Bible. The one world currency (electronic cash, AKA "credits" will be here soon, kinda like in video games). God blesses the countries that bless Israel. Look at the USA and the UK. They are the 2 top supporters of Israel. Look at other countries that don't support Israel (I'm talking financially here). Which countries are blessed? These are all prophecies from the Bible, and were foretold about 5,000 to 2,000 years ago.

2) If Evolution is true, then how did we get here? Someone said, that's not the point of Evolution. I think it is. Everyone wants to know why we are here, how we got here, etc. Evolution says that life started with the Big Bang (theory). The big bang theory says that the entire universe was squished to a little dot the size of a period on this computer screen. Let me ask you this....try melting a plastic chair, and squishing it down into a little dot. Kinda hard, isn't it? OK, try 1,000 chairs. Then try 1,000,000 chairs. Then try all that + the earth + everything in it (the earth + everything in it is about the 1,000,000 chairs X 1,000,000,000 or so) + the entire universe (the earth + everything in it is probably only about 0.0000000123% of the size of the universe. OK...now...TRY and push that all down into a single dot. Even if the atoms were broken, and only pieces of them remained, and they were compressed like 1,000,000,000,000:1 compression, it STILL wouldn't be possible.

3) Evolution teaches the Big Bang Theory. If the Big Bank theory is true, then elements must have been somehow generated from nothing - that is "spontaneous generation." It has already been *proven* that spontaneous generation is false. So, for that reason, Evolution *maybe* isn't true, right? I mean, we could have got here some other way, right? But, the probelm is, that's not what is tought in the text books. Little 5 year old kids are taught that the Big Bang really happened! That's what they really believe (those little kids), until they turn to about 13 or 14 or 15 years old.

4) Why do we have public schools in America? They are against the law. The government (at the Federal level) should never have had anything at all to do with the education of the citizens of its states. Yet, the government prints the textbooks, they back the Evolutionary religion wholeheartedly, and they are happy to do so. They are happy to tell this lie to our kids. Why do they do that? If you ask me, it's a conspiracy to get people to believe a very big lie. We've been fooled.

5) Carbon dating - it doesn't work, yet we continue to use it. People say that it works, but it really doesn't. Let me explain why. Carbon (the C14 molecule) dating says that since we know the half-life of an element or molecule, or isotope, we can distinguish the age of an organic object by the amount of C14 on that object. This is not true for several reasons.

A) C14 is a VERY rare molecule. It only exists on our planet as like 0.0000051% of the entire molecules on this planet. I don't know the exact %, but it's VERY rare. I'm not talking about the atomic weight, BTW. That has nothing to do with this. Nitrogen is a very common element in our atmosphere. The C14 molecule is very rare. So rare, in fact, that it's inmeasurable. Scientists say that it is measureable, but it isn't. How are you supposed to meausre something like 0.0000051% of the air? And what if it's 0.000049% in other places (not I moved a decimal), that is about 10 times as much as in the first description. And how do we know that there was always the same amount of Carbon on the earth? How do we know that a metiore didn't hit the earth, filled with C14 molecles, and scatter all around the earth? How do we know that the flood of Noah 4,000 or 6,000 years ago didn't change anything? Or that the amount of Oxygen on the earth before the flood didn't change anything?

B) By using Carbon dating to measure the half-life of an organic object, we need to assume the amount of C14 it had to being with. How do we know how much C14 it had 4,000 years ago? It could have been changed somehow, you know. Maybe someone dumped a shovel full of it onto it, or maybe it was never even exposed to C14 because it was in a remote place where C14 is even more, extremely rare (as if 0.0000somethinwhatever % of the air isn't rare enough already). See, with C14 dating, we can say, OK, IF it existed 10,000,000 years ago, this is how much C14 it would have had...but, we really don't know if it was even there 8,000 or 10,000 years ago.

C) Because the C14 molecule is so rare, it's inaccurate. Think about it...what if in some places, it existed as a whole 0.01% of the air. That's still VERY rare, but it's about 10,000 times more common than in other places. Lets see....6,000 years time 10,000, hmm....that is about 60,000,000 years. There is a big difference between 6,000 and 60,000,000.

6) Macro evolution has never been witnessed. Some people say they *did* see one "species" changing into another "species" in laboratory tests, but the Bible says that could happen easily. One *kind* can give forth to it's own *kind* with new traits. But it's still the same *kind* of animal. I've never seen an Ameba turn into a frog. Or a frog turn into an ape. Or an ape turn into a human. And it never will happen, either. Apes and humans don't have a common ancestor. That's a lie. There is hardly even evidence to back that up. Apes don't have vocal cords to talk with, Humans can talk because their vocal cords are made for it. Humans are smart enough to recognize and fear God, apes are not. That is a difference as well.

7) Cosmic and stellar evolution have never been proven, either. That's also a theory. Yet, the textbooks say (in the beginning of the books) that it's a true fact. And the 5 year old kids believe it, of course. Cosmic evolution explains how the stars and galaxies were created. Let me ask a little question about this. In the big bang, the universe was in a smal dot, and it span around really fast until it exploded, right? Do you know about the law of circular momentum? When a circle spins and gives of pieces of itself, the circiles that come out of it also all spin in the same direction. So, why then are whole planets spinning in opposite direction from each other? What about whole galaxies. There are some whole galaxies that spin backwards. Why is that? How could it happen? Also, when measuring the size/distance from the earth of other stars and planets, scientists use a trigonometric function. They use a telescope, and they measure one star from the same place on earth at 2 different times - once in the spring, and once in the fall. The distance between the earth and the sun is 8 light minutes - that means it takes 8 minutes for light on the sun to get to earth. So the whole diameter (from spring to fall) is 16 light minutes. The stars they are trying to measure are sometimes 100,000,000 light years away. Do you know how small of an angle that is? The short end is 8 light minutes (the bottom), and the 2 sides (look at it like a triangle) are each 100,000,000 light years long. The angle that is made then, is something like 0.00000023 degrees. It's VERY SMALL angle. Yet, scientists think that they can use this angle to measure the distance of stars. And even if it does work, that doesn't prove, in any way, that God didn't put them there in the first place.

8) If evolution is true, what is the difference between right and wrong? What is sin? I believe, that if Evolution is true, the only things that are right and wrong, are whatever peple say are right and wrong. And history can tell...rules are only there until you need them. The same goes for laws. Once you don't need laws anymore, what's the point of having them?

9) Why does the media refer to our country as a democracy? It's supposed to be a republic. There is a big difference. In a republic (like America is supposed to be like), the citizens *all* vote, and all have a right to vote, and they vote for leaders, and the leaders make the laws. A democracy is different. In a democracy, the people vote, and THEY make the laws. A democracy is very similar to Evolution. Man makes laws. In Evolution, we don't appoint anyone to make rules for us. We make those ourselves. Remember the pledge of allegiance? "....and to the REPUBLIC, for which is stands, One Nation, under God..." Note that it doesn't say "...and to the DEMOCRACY, for which it stands..." The founding fathers could have done it that way, too, you know, but they didn't. So the media is controlling our government. They tell people it's a democracy when it really isn't. And our government puts up with it. This is very destructive. Also notice where the words "democrat" and "republican" come from (I'm not a democrat or a republican BTW).

These are not the same 8 or 9 questions as I had before, but I also think that the majority of these questions cannot be answered by Evolution.

And my point...no, I'm not trying to prove Christianity right. I'm not trying to say that Evolution is for sure false. Not doing either of those things.

I'm saying, that Evolution is not proven, yet the public school textbooks say that it is. The government and many scientists say that it is. Whenever someone like myself comes up and argue that, people just say "we never said it was proven - it's a theory." But...little 5 year old kids really don't know the difference between a theory and proof. They think a theory is proof. When in reality, a theory is actually closer to a religion (if it's a big theory, like the Big Bang).

And some people say "Well, since some parts of evolution aren't proven but some are (the scientific parts are), then I'm only going to believe the scientific parts." In short, when you are saying this, you are saying that you only believe in science. See, people have been taught, in public schools, since they were age 5, that Evolution = science. That the 2 are interchangable. That is not true. The 2 are not interchangable. Science is proven, it is a fact. Evolution is not. Some people, who believe in Evolution, have found out certain scientific facts in the recent past. So, for that reason, we decide to believe anything they say. That's kinda like a stock broker...look...he makes you money on one stock, or maybe even 10 stocks in a row, so we'll believe in and buy whatever stock they recommend, right? What happens if you put all your money you earned from him in the past into that one stock, and then he's wrong that time? Woops...you just became broke. No one can say that just because something was this way in the past, that it will be right again in the future. Just because some scientists find out / discover some scientific facts, it doesn't mean that they are ALWAYS right. They are quite often wrong. And if you ask me, anything they say about Evolution is wrong. Because evolution is a theory, a belief, a religiion practically. It's not proven. Science is proven, and the 2 are not one in the same. Evolution is 99.95% science, and 0.05% theory (lets just use that as an example, the actual % may be a bit different). We can even say that it's 90% science, and 10% theory. OK, so if it's 90% science, and 10% theory, then it's mostly science, right? I'll tell you what I think. The 90% of evolution that is science, and is proven, is just that - science. It has nothing at all to do with Evolution. Evolution is the 10% that is theory. In fact, evolution is all theory. It's a religious belief that is based on theories, not facts. Science is based on facts, but Evolution is not. You can't switch the 2 around.

Also note, how lies have been told (and government backed) in the past:

1) big rocks fall faster than little rocks

2) if you are sick, you have bad blood. So just get rid of your blood, and you'll be OK in the end.

3) the earth is flat

4) since the earth is flat, if you go to the edge, you will fall off (we don't know how the edge is held up, though)

5) the universe revolves around the earth. the earth is the center of the universe

6) the universe was self created through Evolution and the Big Bang - this is the latest lie that is government backed.

So I'm against:

1) the government interfering with education in America

2) public schools in general, at the Federal level

3) America becoming a democracy, and turning away from being a republic (and thus, for this reason, I'm pretty much against the "media" in general)

4) Evolution in general, for several reasons, outlined in points 1 through 9 at the top. This includes how the Evolutionists believe how the Earth got started, why we are here, macro evolution, stellar and cosmic evolution, the Big Bang theory (with spontaneous generation), and the dating of the earth and the dating of the universe using Evolutionary methods.

And here's a little chart I made....

If Evolution is true, then:

1. there is no creator (the earth was self created)

2. there are no rules (except ethics, which each person makes for himself in his/her own life)

3. there is no purpose to life, except to live here for 80 years and do whatever you want

4. man is at the top of the food chain (thus, the relation of Evolution to Deism)

5. OK to divorce (because in my ethics, that's perfectly fine)

6. there is no Sin, no right/wrong, and no order in general. Everything is without order, and self created.

7. death brought man into the world (natural selection, species died, so the new species were stronger).

8. death is good and ongoing. it's ok to die. you're going to be recycled, reused, and make space for the new, stronger species.

9. there is no after life - first death, then nothing - so then, it's not wrong to commit suicide, it's ok to kill people, and ok to commit whatever sin you want, because after you die, you won't be punished anyway. And for this reason also, no one knows where they are going after they die.

10. it's not possible to tell the future or prophecy (despite the fact that it has been proven), that's an impossible / unprovable thing to do

11. there is no God. Or some Evolutionists believe that they is a God. Well, if there is a God, and he wasn't here to begin with (that is, he didn't create the world), then how did he get here? Was he part of the Big Bang, too? Or if he's just a thing of imagination, what is the point of having him anyway? If a God isn't real, there is no poing of having that God, IMO.

12. no one knows where they are going after they die, and usually, they don't really care, either.

13. there is no hope, only death. Yup, just go with the flow. Everyone else died and did what they wanted, and they don't have a soul, and neither do you, so what's the point?

14. man descended from dirt.

*IF* the creation story is true (and if you believe it) and the Christian God DOES exist, then everything is the exact opposite:

1. there is a creator

2. there are rules - God made them and wrote them in his book, the Word of God.

3. there is a purpose to life - to do the will of God.

4. man is a fallen creature. We are not moving upwards, but downwards.

5. divorce is bad, because God said so. So is any other type of sin.

6. sin exists, and is very bad, and there is a consequence to sin - punishment from God.

7. man working together with the Devil brought death into the world.

8. death is bad. And there is a way out (through the Son of God, Jesus Christ).

9. there is an afterlife. There is a heaven, and a hell. You go to either one or the other. Nothing in between. And you stay there forever. That's what scares people the most.

10. it is very much possible to know the future and prophecy. God knows the future. Some of his prophecies have already come true.

11. we know *exactly* where we are going to go after we die.

12. there is a God, and he is just and merciful, and it's not possible for him to lie. And he is without sin, and he is omnipresent. (note: this is different from the Islamic religion, because in Islam, it's perfectly OK for God or his prophet to sin, and there is proof of Allah's sin and Mohammed's sin in the Koran. How many wives did Mohammed have anyway? Aren't they only allowed to have 4? Why did you have something like 14 wives?)

13. there is a saviour, Jesus Christ. There is hope, and it's very easy to achieve this hope.

14. man descended from God (because God made man in his own image).

OK...BTW, I thought I'd point out....

I wouldn't be surprised if this thread gets locked, or that it gets deleted like the last one did

So, for this reason....I'm going to post my phone#. It's my cell phone. You can call me at any time, and I'm going to get a new cell phone soon anyway, so here goes:

(925) 382-6215 - ask for Tibor.

Happy reading.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
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well since this thread is allowed to exist with pennytibz copying and pasting his deleted posts i'm happy someone preserved other posts from the last thread. i hate retyping stuff.

funny tibz doesn't even alter his posts even after learning that some is plain scientifically incorrect, like the carbon 14 fantasy he seems to be fixed on. creationist tactic #1, repeating inaccurate information gives your ideas credibility.
 

zod

Senior member
Oct 10, 1999
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1) Not an evo question, but . . .as far as prophesies, Nostradamus' are said to have come true. And my roomate had a vision of Aurilia hitting a HR to left field tonight (i said groudout to short). It came true.

2) Evolution doesnt say anything about the big bang theory. Thats for astrophysicists to discuss. The big bang, and advanced physics is so counter-intuitive its amazing. For a few fractions of a second, the four forces didn't even exist. But nothing to do with evolution.

3) Evolution does not teach the big bang theory. No one ever said it does. The universe was never nothing, it was just a minute, dense, and hot. I'm not sure of the details, though. Maybe a physics geek knows more.

4) I'd say the free education of our populace has a lot to do with America rising to the place it is today in the world. And most textbooks in schools are printed by private companies, not the government. Further, why would an almost completely Christian government be interested in creating a lie for its people? And this conspiracy would have to be worldwide, not just American.

5) Carbon dating works. It has been correlated with other dating tools to prove its veracity, such as dendrichronology. Carbon-14 is measureable. Folks at CERN count up atoms in a particle accelerator, they can measure the amount of carbon-14 in dead tissue. Carbon-14 is only one of many radiometric dating techniques. They ALL aren't wrong (potassium-argon, uranium-235, etc).

6) Apes and humans had a recent common ancestor, and there is a wealth of information both in the fossil record and on a genetic and social basis to lead us to that conclusion. No one person will probably witness complete speciation because evolution takes TIME. Lots of time. And other animals know fear, not just humans.

7) I don't think astrophysicists who are studying stellar distances (which is becoming better and better with the Hubble) really care about proving God didn't put them there. That is out of their scope.

8) I agree with you. There are only laws until you need them. Evolution is true, but I don't see what that has to do with right and wrong. Societies create laws to ensure their functionality. Some laws say not to eat pork, some say not to drink alcohol, or cows, or to cover up women's faces. It depends on the society that creates them.

9) Not sure about the political science part. Maybe America is a "representative democracy" ? Again, not sure. Evolution has nothing to do with lawmaking, though.


You are asking questions that the evolutionary theory doesn't speak of.
Think of it this way. I can say the Theory of Gravity doesn't explain why I am not allowed to kill my parents. Well of course it doesn't! Why would it?

Evolution is a part of science. Evolution is good science. Science isn't a fact, it is a mechanism for us to learn about our universe. Gravity, Evolution, Nuclear Physics, etc all help us understand what is going on.

"Evolution is 99.95% science, and 0.05% theory "
Theories are PART of science, they are how science works.

As for lies that have been told in the past. . . by who? by which government? The world being flat? Who stood by that? The Catholic church. . .so? They admitted their mistake.


Public schooling is largely locally run. Look at that suburb outside of Atlanta, they said to teach other ideas other than evolution. The federal government has nothing to do with it.

you may e-mail me at any time to further discuss this.
 

PennyTibz

Member
May 31, 2002
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response for "0roo0roo":
"....well since this thread is allowed to exist with pennytibz copying and pasting his deleted posts ..."
Uuuhh...if you check, I didn't post that, cuz I was scared of getting banned because of it, or because of this post geting deleted (again) or locked. But anyway, I'm glad someone did too, cuz I hate retyping stuff, too.

"...even after learning that some is plain scientifically incorrect, like the carbon 14 fantasy he seems to be fixed on..."

OK, I explained how *I think* carbon dating works. If the method that I wrote out is wrong, you please tell me how it's done (or how you think it's done), and I'll show you using that method how it is fake. I've never carbon dated anything myself, to tell you the truth. I just know about what I learned in school. If 5 or 6 years ago is already outdated, or if I'm just flat out wrong, let me know. But don't just say "you're wrong." Say in what way I am wrong, and let me (and everyone else reading this thread) how it's REALLY done.

In response to "zod":

"1) (Nostradamus / your friend)." Nostradamus was a smart guy. How do you know he didn't get those visions from God himself? Or the thing your friend did, could have also been an "act of God." I.e. - pure chance. Home Run ot left field? Man, there are HUNDREDS of homeruns to left field in the MLB every year. Maybe even thousands. The truth is, there are LOTS of prophecies in the Bible, not just one, or 2, so it's not "pure chance." The prophecies are VERY specific, not vague, like Nostradamus' prophecies were. There are also some prophecies of Nostradamus that didn't come true (they were passed up in time - Armagedon was already supposed to have happened). However, no prophecies from the Bible have been missed, yet. There are a few that still need to come true, but they will.

"2) Evolution doesnt say anything about the big bang theory. "
Actually, it does. From what I remember, when I read the science book that I used to read in like...5th grade (a book which was printed by the government, backed by the government, and pro-evolution BTW), I remember reading about the Big Bang theory. The Big Bang theory has everything to do with Evolution. If it wasn't, then how can Evolution explain how we got here? It can't, and that's one main question everyone wants to know - how the heck did we get here?

Anyway...basically, you just said that Evolution can't explain how the universe got here. That pretty much makes it a sham IMO. I mean...that's what people want to know.

And another point is, most people don't even know that. Most people who believe in Evolution also believe in the Big Bang. Don't you think that is kinda weird? And you say they are in no way related? I think that the fact that people usually either believe both of them or neither of them, is proof that they are very much so related.

"3) Evolution does not teach the big bang theory. No one ever said it does. "
I think it does. I think Evolution teaches the Big Bang. I may be wrong! The point is - it doesn't matter whether evolution teaches the big bang or not - the government backed textbooks tell the little kids at the beginning of every book how the big bang DID happen, even though it's a theory, they tell them that they KNOW that it happened, which isn't true. They don't know. Whether Evolution backs the big bang or not doesn't matter.

"4) I'd say the free education of our populace has a lot to do with America rising to the place it is today in the world. And most textbooks in schools are printed by private companies, not the government. Further, why would an almost completely Christian government be interested in creating a lie for its people? And this conspiracy would have to be worldwide, not just American."

Free education? You call forcing a 5 year old kid to believe in the Evolutionary religion "free education." I think it's brute force.

Let me point one thing out here (if it isn't enough that I typed this like 5 times already):

You said earlier that the Big Bang has nothing to do with evolution. A lot of people also say that some things in evolution aren't proven yet, and some things are. Here's what I think. Evolution is about 99% true, and about 1% false (the %'s dont matter, it's a way of thinking). The 99% is true is science, and the 1% that isn't true is Evolution. Thus, Evolution is 100% unproven. Science is a PART of Evolution. But Evolution is most certainly not a part of science.

Think of it from a mathematical point of view. 5 is a part of 8, right? But is 8 a part of 5? Can you fit 8 into 5? The same is with science. Parts of evolution are science, and those parts are proven. Other parts of evolution aren't proven, and those parts have nothing to do with science. Science and Evolution are not interchangable.

"And most textbooks in schools are printed by private companies, not the government."
Yes, but who pays for them? We pay our taxes, and with those taxes, the government buys those books, from thsoe companies, and we are forced to read and believe in only those books. It's communism.

"Further, why would an almost completely Christian government be interested in creating a lie for its people? And this conspiracy would have to be worldwide, not just American."
There is a simple answer to that. Have you heard of the Masonic Lodge? Many (not all) of the so called Christian people in our government are members of the Masonic Lodge. The Masonic Lodge is not a popular religios group - there aren't very many people in it. The people who are in it, though, are rich and powerful in the government. They make the decisions, and they support Evolution. They do not speak for all Christians.

"5) Carbon dating works. It has been correlated with other dating tools to prove its veracity, such as dendrichronology. Carbon-14 is measureable. Folks at CERN count up atoms in a particle accelerator, they can measure the amount of carbon-14 in dead tissue. Carbon-14 is only one of many radiometric dating techniques. They ALL aren't wrong (potassium-argon, uranium-235, etc)."

How can you prove how much C14 was on an object 4,000 years ago? How do you know it wasn't in one way or another affected? The outside world isn't really a "laboratory environment" you know. Things change. What if a guy put a shovel full of C14 onto that object. Wouldn't that change it? Or ir a metiore came to earth made of like 50% C14, wouldn't that add more C14 to that object?

Measurable, yes. But it changes in different parts of whatever you are measuring. It may have 200 PPM in what part of an object and only 5 PPM in another part of an object. Measureable, yes. Accurate, no.

OK, so you can measure it, accurately (maybe), BUT, how do you know how much it had to begin with? Don't you have to assume how much it had to begin with in order to find out when it started losing molecules?

"6) Apes and humans had a recent common ancestor, and there is a wealth of information both in the fossil record and on a genetic and social basis to lead us to that conclusion. No one person will probably witness complete speciation because evolution takes TIME. Lots of time. And other animals know fear, not just humans."

Other animals know fear, yes, but not fear of God. That's because they don't know what sin is and what it isn't. We are able to know that if we wish. I haven't seen any evidence. Most pre-ape and pre-human fossils that have been dug up have actually been found to be fakes. In fact, there was an article in the paper about a week ago about a skull that they found that they though for years was some pre-human ancestor, and it was actually an ape skull. Even if there is something that looks human and is said to be an ancestor, since carbon dating doesn't work, we can't measure its age, and since we can't measure its age, we have no way of knowing when it lived. If could have been 5,000 years ago or 5,000,000 years ago. Being one decimal off when you are talking about one millionth of a % of this molecule being in the air, it's very easy to have a large margin for error (like 98something%).

"7) I don't think astrophysicists who are studying stellar distances (which is becoming better and better with the Hubble) really care about proving God didn't put them there. That is out of their scope."

OK, so they don't care...but they can't prove when they started or where they started, can they? Remember my example of the burning candle and the guy driving from SF to NYC?

"8) I agree with you. There are only laws until you need them. Evolution is true, but I don't see what that has to do with right and wrong. "

Evolution isn't true. Science is true, and it's a part of evolution. But evolution is not part of science, because it isn't proven / isn't true. It's a bunch of theories based on other theories and assumptions.

"Societies create laws to ensure their functionality. Some laws say not to eat pork, some say not to drink alcohol, or cows, or to cover up women's faces. It depends on the society that creates them."

History has proven that the laws created by man always fail. The laws the God made never fail. All "world empires" of the passed failed because they didn't have God in their government. Man only needs laws until...well, until he doesn't need them anymore. So, once a very powerful group of people have enough power (like the NWO, the Illuminati, the antichrist, Masons, etc.) then they won't need to pay attention to the laws that other men have made for them anymore. This doesn't disprove evolution in any way, but it shows how dangerous it can be.

"9) Not sure about the political science part. Maybe America is a "representative democracy" ? Again, not sure. Evolution has nothing to do with lawmaking, though."

Yes, this is nothing to do with Evolution. However, it just show how things that are backed by our government and by the media, that are not under our control, are almost ALWAYS wrong and incorrect.

"You are asking questions that the evolutionary theory doesn't speak of."
I'm asking questions that SCIENCE doesn't speak up, not evolution. Science and evolution are not interchangeable. Evolution is the type of thing that gets new definitions over time. People can say Evolution means whatever they want. The point is...the part of Evolution that isn't proven, that is theories, is most definately not science. It's something that we just don't know, and something that we assume to know.

"Evolution is a part of science. Evolution is good science. Science isn't a fact, it is a mechanism for us to learn about our universe. Gravity, Evolution, Nuclear Physics, etc all help us understand what is going on."

That's not a true statement. You can't prove evolution through science. Because Evolution is based on theories. Science is not based on theories.

""Evolution is 99.95% science, and 0.05% theory "
Theories are PART of science, they are how science works."

When a little 5 year old kid reads it in the 1st grade, he doesn't know the difference. That's a big point.

"As for lies that have been told in the past. . . by who? by which government? The world being flat? Who stood by that? The Catholic church. . .so? They admitted their mistake."

When you went to school back in those days, that's what you learned. It was backed by whoever was in power - by whoever was in charge of the schools. If it was the Catholic church, then it was them.

BTW, I'd like to point out that "The Catholic Church" is not "The Church." They are a denominational religion. I am not part of any denomination. I interpret the Bible the way I want to, not the way someone tells me to. The Catholics believe a lot of things that I believe, and I believe a lot of things (as a Christian individual) that the Catholics don't believe. So when you here the media criticizing "the church" because of what Catholics do, please think a little deaper around that.

"Public schooling is largely locally run. Look at that suburb outside of Atlanta, they said to teach other ideas other than evolution. The federal government has nothing to do with it."

I bet the feds were pretty pissed off when that happened. Who knows how much money they took away from (or stopped giving to) that organization!

Teachers' low wages are direct proof of public schooling at the federal level doesn't work as well as locally paid for schools do.

If my kid doesn't go to a public school, why the heck should my taxes support public schools? I don't want to have to pay for someone else, especially someone else in a different state. That's almost like paying for someone in a different country. USA citizens' taxes should be lowered and income tax / sales tax should not be used to pay for public schools. Lower taxes, and the parents can pay for their own kids to go to private schools. They would have enough money to do so then, if that happened.

Besides, the statement that it "works" or "doesn't work" is insignificant. It's against the law, simply put. The founding fathers most certainly did not have public schools in mind.

Tibor
 

PennyTibz

Member
May 31, 2002
59
0
0
from "dparker":
"damn, too much stuff to read... "

It's kinda hard to point out how fake a "belief" is and how it is a religion to a small group of people in a single thread in a forum, when that group of people has been brainwashed for 40 years and told that something is true. Look at ex-communist Europe, for example. A lot of old people living there litterally think that the country is communist! Even though it isn't anymore. No wonder Russians are so good and sneaky about getting around the government....during communism, they were forced to do so (by there government) in order to survive and lve normal lives.


 

UglyCasanova

Lifer
Mar 25, 2001
19,275
1,361
126
Originally posted by: PennyTibz
from "dparker":
"damn, too much stuff to read... "

It's kinda hard to point out how fake a "belief" is and how it is a religion to a small group of people in a single thread in a forum, when that group of people has been brainwashed for 40 years and told that something is true. Look at ex-communist Europe, for example. A lot of old people living there litterally think that the country is communist! Even though it isn't anymore. No wonder Russians are so good and sneaky about getting around the government....during communism, they were forced to do so (by there government) in order to survive and lve normal lives.

oh...ok.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
Originally posted by: PennyTibz
from "dparker":
"damn, too much stuff to read... "

It's kinda hard to point out how fake a "belief" is and how it is a religion to a small group of people in a single thread in a forum, when that group of people has been brainwashed for 40 years and told that something is true. Look at ex-communist Europe, for example. A lot of old people living there litterally think that the country is communist! Even though it isn't anymore. No wonder Russians are so good and sneaky about getting around the government....during communism, they were forced to do so (by there government) in order to survive and lve normal lives.

what your talking about is brain washing. its apparent that your a victim.
 

PennyTibz

Member
May 31, 2002
59
0
0
response to OrooOroo:
"what your talking about is brain washing. its apparent that your a victim. "

Any religion, or ANYTHING for that matter, if forced into someone from day 1 when they are in school, is brain washing. In Christianity, we have a choice as to what we want to believe. In America, when you are in grades 1 through 12, you don't have a choice as to what you want to believe. You have to believe what they tell you, or you fail the course. Even if it's not proven.

So yes....brain washed...well if you're the one who's brain washed, you really don't know that you are brain washed until you have already come out of it. Since Evolution is forced and Christianity is not forced, which one do you think is easier to have victims of brain washing?

You'll probably say "Christianity of course - that's brain washing" (or any religious belief). I think that brain washing is, well, what I wrote above. Force since birth = brain washed, given choices = not brain washed. There's a big difference.

Tibor
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
. In Christianity, we have a choice as to what we want to believe. In America, when you are in grades 1 through 12, you don't have a choice as to what you want to believe. You have to believe what they tell you, or you fail the course. Even if it's not proven.

So yes....brain washed...well if you're the one who's brain washed, you really don't know that you are brain washed until you have already come out of it. Since Evolution is forced and Christianity is not forced, which one do you think is easier to have victims of brain washing?

You'll probably say "Christianity of course - that's brain washing" (or any religious belief). I think that brain washing is, well, what I wrote above. Force since birth = brain washed, given choices = not brain washed. There's a big difference.

Tibor

don't delude yourself. people are indoctrinated with their parents religion from birth. 9 out of 10 times you will probably remain your parents religion. choice is limited.

why are most people X religion? because their parents were. simple. do parents come to you on your 12th birthday with a selection of holy books from different religions and let you choose? no.


evolution is not forced. if you think the scientific arguements supporting evolution are bunk, you are free to believe what you want. that being said, all opinoins are not valid. just because you say genetics does not in any way support evolution does not make it true.

science allows for questioning, its all about questions. but if you don't follow scientific method or simple logic, then its not science.

in religion and especially your version of religion you are asked to close your eyes to reason. you must believe just because you should. anything not fitting your dogma will be ignored. thus any real science that doesn't fit will put you into a fit of denial, you'll fall back upon another pseudo scientific explanation like creationist thermodynamics to make yourself feel better.


now bend your supposedly great powers of investigation and look at your own faith. if you think that evolution is not 100% proven(not much is), then you'll find nothing proven in your faith. no point in living for you by that standard, you sleep on a bed of lies. you pretend other things are worse lies to make yourself feel better. that is pathetic if nothing else.

remember, the bible is no proof for anything. the bible is a holy book? why? because the bible said so. its a circular arguement.

i'm your holy master.

why?

i said that i'm your holy master.

 

PennyTibz

Member
May 31, 2002
59
0
0
Response to "0roo0roo":

"don't delude yourself. people are indoctrinated with their parents religion from birth. 9 out of 10 times you will probably remain your parents religion. choice is limited."

The problem is, about 50% of families these days are divorced. That is a result of teaching evolution to the general population (because they all think it's OK to do so, and don't give a crap about their own kids). A lot of kids these days also don't even have parents. So, if they don't have parents, who decides what they learn from them? The government does.

"why are most people X religion? because their parents were. simple."
In Christianity, you have a choice as to what you want to believe. You can leave and go to another religious belief if you wish. God won't punish you for not believing in him until after you die. However, Islam is different. If you are born into Islam, too bad, you're stuck. If you want to leave, they'll kill you. If you ask me, that's wrong. It's similar with evolution. If you want to learn a different belief at age 8, that's fine w/ the government, but it'll cost you $$$. You still have to pay taxes for other kids to go to public schools, even if your own kids don't go there.

"evolution is not forced. if you think the scientific arguements supporting evolution are bunk, you are free to believe what you want. that being said, all opinoins are not valid. just because you say genetics does not in any way support evolution does not make it true."

Yes, I'm 20 years old, though. I'm not 5. You tell that to a 5 year old kid, and he won't even think about God. 5 year old kids really don't care why they are here. They will believe whatever you tell them. 5 year olds are gullible.

"science allows for questioning, its all about questions. but if you don't follow scientific method or simple logic, then its not science. "
If there are no definitive answers to those questions, then that isn't science anymore. Science is things that we can see, hear, touch, etc. - with our senses. In fact, I don't even believe that theories that can never be proven (such as the Big Bang theory) are even a part of science. It's a religion all on its own. Why the heck would anyone make up a theory that could never be proven or seen anyway?

"in religion and especially your version of religion you are asked to close your eyes to reason. you must believe just because you should. anything not fitting your dogma will be ignored. thus any real science that doesn't fit will put you into a fit of denial, you'll fall back upon another pseudo scientific explanation like creationist thermodynamics to make yourself feel better. "

Until there is a better answer with more proof, that's what I'll believe. I don't close my eyes to reason. The Bible has plenty of reasoning. A lot more reasoning than Evolution, at least, and more reasoning ... well shoot...I'm going off preaching again, so I'll shut up :).

The truth is, I don't think either creationism, big bang, islam, etc. - any of those religions / theories / whatever can ever be proven, so people will just have to find out after they die. And if you ask me, that's pretty sad, because a lot of people are going to suffer once they find out what they were missing.

If you want, I can start another debate about why I choose Christianity and not other religions.

Tibor


 

PennyTibz

Member
May 31, 2002
59
0
0
Response for "0roo0roo":

"now bend your supposedly great powers of investigation and look at your own faith. if you think that evolution is not 100% proven(not much is), then you'll find nothing proven in your faith. no point in living for you by that standard, you sleep on a bed of lies. you pretend other things are worse lies to make yourself feel better. that is pathetic if nothing else. "

You just described what Evolution is. Switch your thinking from thinking of Creationism / Christianity using that definition, and put Evolution in its place. It fits perfectly.

"remember, the bible is no proof for anything. the bible is a holy book? why? because the bible said so. its a circular arguement.
i'm your holy master.
why?
i said that i'm your holy master."

You didn't die for my sins.

You didn't rise from the dead.

You are not a spirit that is omnipresent and always right.

Men are often wrong and make mistakes. God doesn't. God hasn't made any mistakes since the Universe began.

You didn't live for 6,000 years from the time of the creation until today, and caused people to have the same faith for about 6,000 years (I may be off on the dates, but it's either 6,000 or 8,00 years).

The Bible wants us to have faith in God. It doesn't want us to prove that he exists. If you have faith in God, then you already know.

You didn't tell prophecies that came true with 5,000 years in between the dates.

You didn't allow the Devil to build up nations and then have them be dstroyed.

You didn't say you would bless Israel and the nations that bless Israel 6,000 years ago, and see it come true today.

Your human body / flesh is not immortal. God is. Your soul is immortal though. And a human's soul is nothing compared to God in terms of power.

You have hardly any control in what happens (physically) in the world today - such as, earthquakes, metiors hitting the earth, volcanoes, and hurricanes, and tornados, famines, floods, and other so called "natural" disasters. God has power over these things.

For these reasons, and countless others, you aren't God, sorry. Even if you wrote your own Bible and caused the whole world to believe it, you still wouldn't be a God. Neither would any other person.

That's why all other religions have failed in the past. Except for the Judeo-Christian religion. It has survived, because it is the only "religion" that was invented by God. In fact, it isn't even a religion. It's truth.

Tibor
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
The problem is, about 50% of families these days are divorced. That is a result of teaching evolution to the general population (because they all think it's OK to do so, and don't give a crap about their own kids). A lot of kids these days also don't even have parents. So, if they don't have parents, who decides what they learn from them? The government does.

there is no link. perhaps 50% of people divorce because they now eat more mcdonalds super size fries. your reasoning is absurd as saying the theory of relativity leads to inner city gang activity. your wish is that parents would all become fundamentalists like you and teach their children that darwin was doing the devils bidding and all science pertaining to evolution should be ignored. a pathetic wish indeed. logic eludes you my dear, time to educate yourself or be a fool.


In Christianity, you have a choice as to what you want to believe. You can leave and go to another religious belief if you wish. God won't punish you for not believing in him until after you die. However, Islam is different. If you are born into Islam, too bad, you're stuck. If you want to leave, they'll kill you. If you ask me, that's wrong. It's similar with evolution. If you want to learn a different belief at age 8, that's fine w/ the government, but it'll cost you $$$. You still have to pay taxes for other kids to go to public schools, even if your own kids don't go there.


the fundamental problem with your arguement is that evolution is not equivalent to religion as you wish to believe. by your arguement you could object to old earth theory that is fundamental to modern geology. as for choice, you are still deluding yourself, it is limited as always. if you had grown up in a japanese family you would probably be budhist or something else today. sure you could choose later, but unlikely after years of unquestioning indoctrination.

Yes, I'm 20 years old, though. I'm not 5. You tell that to a 5 year old kid, and he won't even think about God. 5 year old kids really don't care why they are here. They will believe whatever you tell them. 5 year olds are gullible.


and as a 20 year old you are expected to inform yourself. if you have a problem with evolution and barely understand the fundamentals of evolution, you are not fit to judge. your information posted so far is scientiifcally faulty and worse not even at a high level, but at a fundamental level. i don't know if you dropped out of high school, but even the lowliest science classes would have taught you what carbon 14 can do, and what it can't.

judgments based on ignorance are worthless.

creationist literature is not acceptable as evidence as it is ussually faulty. thats why its not accepted by the scientific community which is peer reviewed. theres no conspiracy, just weak arguments from creationists.

If there are no definitive answers to those questions, then that isn't science anymore. Science is things that we can see, hear, touch, etc. - with our senses. In fact, I don't even believe that theories that can never be proven (such as the Big Bang theory) are even a part of science. It's a religion all on its own. Why the heck would anyone make up a theory that could never be proven or seen anyway?

because it doesn't fit your beliefs and disturbs you it shouldn't be thought about? seems your religious beliefs chain your mind down:p many things in science are indirectly observed, black holes quarks etc as many have said already. not to mention if proof continuously builds on one direction, do you think the conclusion becomes more and more likely? evolution continues to gain more support with every fossil found, with every discovery in genetics etc. your definition of science is twisted.



Until there is a better answer with more proof, that's what I'll believe. I don't close my eyes to reason. The Bible has plenty of reasoning. A lot more reasoning than Evolution, at least, and more reasoning ... well shoot...I'm going off preaching again, so I'll shut up .

prove it. the bible is not based on reason, otherwise it would have no hold at all. why is the bible worth anything at all i ask. you won't be able to answer this question with reason which you seem to hold so dear.

if you try to tear one thing down with reaon(poorly formed reason), it behoves you to do the same with your other beliefs. something you obviously can't do since you suffer from denial. you seek only to feel better about your outdated irrational beliefs.

your posts skim the surface of evolution. and thats probably on purpose. learning more science might create doubt in your closed mind. can't let that happen:p

The truth is, I don't think either creationism, big bang, islam, etc. - any of those religions / theories / whatever can ever be proven, so people will just have to find out after they die. And if you ask me, that's pretty sad, because a lot of people are going to suffer once they find out what they were missing.

as i've said, you can believe anything, but it does not make your reasoning valid. you can believe that a scientific theory backed by evidence is the same as religious dogma when a simple look at definitions would prove different.

your arguement is that you know the definitive truth. how do you know this? what rational arguement can you come up with? why is your belief more likely then that of other religions? because you as a faliable human being chose your religion? your judgement is that much better then those that choose other religions? arrogant indeed.

perhaps you'll be the one to suffer once you find out what your missing.


If you want, I can start another debate about why I choose Christianity and not other religions.


you don't know what debate is. you have proven nothing besides your own ignorance of science, simple definitions, and simple logic/critical thinking/reasoning skills.

i mean come on, how can you hold your head up and claim to debate in good faith why you bring up something like the "if we decended from monkeys why are they still around" arguement. infantile.


lets disect your pathetic attempt at reason here from your first response.

premise #150% of families these days are divorced.

premise #2teaching evolution to the general population makes people neglect their children.

premise #3 A lot of kids these days also don't even have parents

premise #4who decides what they learn from them? The government does

conclusion evolution is wrong.


i infered the conclusion since the qoute i used was so horribly convoluted. anyways, its wrong on so many levels. all the premises are wrong.


maybe you should look up the definition of fallacy, then learn something about it. perhaps change your nick to fallacy.
 

MikeO

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2001
3,026
0
0

The truth is, I don't think either creationism, big bang, islam, etc. - any of those religions / theories / whatever can ever be proven, so people will just have to find out after they die. And if you ask me, that's pretty sad, because a lot of people are going to suffer once they find out what they were missing.

So you're saying your religion cannot be proven and yet you continue to believe in it?


That's why all other religions have failed in the past. Except for the Judeo-Christian religion. It has survived, because it is the only "religion" that was invented by God. In fact, it isn't even a religion. It's truth.

Why is your religion the only right one? Prove that christianity is the only religion invented by god. Provide me with some evidence of god.
 

gopunk

Lifer
Jul 7, 2001
29,239
2
0
jesus christ... these have to be the longest 19 consecutive posts i've ever not read.

get over it people, some people don't agree with you. big whoop, you're never going to convert other people over a message board.
 

PennyTibz

Member
May 31, 2002
59
0
0
"there is no link. perhaps 50% of people divorce because they now eat more mcdonalds super size fries. your reasoning is absurd as saying the theory of relativity leads to inner city gang activity. your wish is that parents would all become fundamentalists like you and teach their children that darwin was doing the devils bidding and all science pertaining to evolution should be ignored. a pathetic wish indeed. logic eludes you my dear, time to educate yourself or be a fool."

No one argues that the marriage divorce rate in America started to go up exponentially in the 60's (which is when schools started teaching Evolution in public schools). And the divorce rate keeps going up. And yes, there is a large corollation. If Evolution had not been taught in schools, people would respect their spouse more, and also respect their kids more.

"the fundamental problem with your arguement is that evolution is not equivalent to religion as you wish to believe. by your arguement you could object to old earth theory that is fundamental to modern geology. as for choice, you are still deluding yourself, it is limited as always. if you had grown up in a japanese family you would probably be budhist or something else today. sure you could choose later, but unlikely after years of unquestioning indoctrination."

I believe Christianity because I have witnessed evidence of the true God. That is explained above in my earlier posts. I won't type it again. The fact that I was raised in a Christian family is irrelevant. Even if I wasn't raised in a Christian family, I could still choose to beleive in God and not some other doctrine about how the earth got here.

"and as a 20 year old you are expected to inform yourself. if you have a problem with evolution and barely understand the fundamentals of evolution, you are not fit to judge. your information posted so far is scientiifcally faulty and worse not even at a high level, but at a fundamental level. i don't know if you dropped out of high school, but even the lowliest science classes would have taught you what carbon 14 can do, and what it can't."

I never judged anyone. I simply said that there is no proof of Evolution, and that's what the textbooks tell to little kids - that there is proof for it. Even though it's a theory, the kids still believe it to be true and without doubt.

I know what C14 can and can't do. I've explained that in my above posts. Please read my story about the candle burning in the open space. It's just like C14 dating. And the guy driving from SF to NYC is a good explanation of how no one can tell the age of the earth. Those are both pretty good examples if you ask me.

"judgments based on ignorance are worthless."

True. I might not be a genius (maybe you are?), but I don't believe myself to be ignorant based on facts about faulty evolutionary tactics that have been outlined in my above posts. I am still waiting for people to tell me how THEY THINK C14 dating works. I already wrote how I think it works. You say that I'm ignorant and unknownledgable, yet, you have not explained how you think it works. If you are going to disprove what I say, then put something in its place.

"creationist literature is not acceptable as evidence as it is ussually faulty. thats why its not accepted by the scientific community which is peer reviewed. theres no conspiracy, just weak arguments from creationists.""

It's not accepted by the scientific community because the scientific community is confused about how the earth got here. They think that evolution is part of science, just because science is a part of evolution. 5 can fit into 8, but 8 can't fit into 5 - that was the "simple minded" example that I gave earlier.

Peer reviewed...yes...it's peer reviewed by a bunch of people who also believe in the same thing. That's like puting a black man murder suspect in a jury full of white, 50 year old men, in 1852, in the southern USA. Do you think he would have been found to be guilty or innocent? Of course they'd say he's guilty, because they all think the same thing. It's the same way with scientists who believe in evolution and the big bang theory.

"because it doesn't fit your beliefs and disturbs you it shouldn't be thought about? seems your religious beliefs chain your mind down many things in science are indirectly observed, black holes quarks etc as many have said already. not to mention if proof continuously builds on one direction, do you think the conclusion becomes more and more likely? evolution continues to gain more support with every fossil found, with every discovery in genetics etc. your definition of science is twisted."

I don't care if you think about it. Just don't tell it to little 5 year old kids as being pure fact when that is not the case. They don't know the difference between the theory and a proven fact, you know. Proof builds more and more in one direction? There is a mentality building more and more in one direction, but not proof, though. Evolution continues to gain more support because more and more people are becoming confused about what evolution is.

"prove it. the bible is not based on reason, otherwise it would have no hold at all. why is the bible worth anything at all i ask. you won't be able to answer this question with reason which you seem to hold so dear."

You can't prove the Bible. God won't allow it to be proven. In fact, it even says in the Bible that the Bible can't be proven. The Bible is a book that teaches us about God and what right/wrong is, and there is no other book in the world that exists that explains these things better. Reasoning is defined differently by each person. Your logical reasoning is obviously different than mine. Our different outlook on life, and this debate, shows everyone that already.

"your posts skim the surface of evolution. and thats probably on purpose. learning more science might create doubt in your closed mind. can't let that happen"

Anything that increases doubt in God is bad and wrong, and is a sin. Learning more science would actually make everyone a bit smarter. Learning more Evolution is downright destructive, however. Remember, I explained above how the words evolutiona and science are not interchangable. The same saying goes for learning about the Big Bang theory - it's destructive to human nature.

"as i've said, you can believe anything, but it does not make your reasoning valid. you can believe that a scientific theory backed by evidence is the same as religious dogma when a simple look at definitions would prove different. "

The Big Bang theory is not backed by evidence. It's backed by assumptions, and even things that have been proven to be not true (such as spontaneous generation). Evolution has been stuffed into peoples' minds so that they think that Evolution and science are the same thing, when they are not.

Evolution and Christianity are both religious belief, except Christianity has prophecies that have come true. No other religion (that I know of) has done this. And I'm positive no other religion has had so many prophecies come true, if any at all.

"your arguement is that you know the definitive truth. how do you know this? what rational arguement can you come up with? why is your belief more likely then that of other religions? because you as a faliable human being chose your religion? your judgement is that much better then those that choose other religions? arrogant indeed."

I'm not trying to preach, man, sorry. I'm just trying to say that Evolution is a form of preaching. So is the Big Bang theory. They're both "preaching" not proving. Science proves, evolution doesn't. Not the same thing. I'm not trying to convert you to my belief. You will have to do that on your own by reading the Word of God (if you choose to do so). I have several reasons why my belief is more likely than that of other religions, but that is a whole different topic. That is like a whole different debate and will be like 5 pages worth of typing, and I'm not going to do that right now. The things that God said in the Bible that would come true, and have come true, is plenty of evidence for me to believe in Him.

"perhaps you'll be the one to suffer once you find out what your missing."

If I believe in God and he doesn't exist, I just lost 80 years.

If I don't believe in God and he DOES exist, I just lost eternity.

If I believe in God and he DOES exist, then I've won the battle for life.

If I don't believe in God, and he doesn't exist, then I've spend 80 years of my worthless life working up to becoming a piece of recycled material for some other species.

Lets see....2 out of 4 times, something REALLY bad happened. 1 out of 4 times something REALLY good happend. 1 out of 4 times nothing really happened.

I'll take my chances for the good thing. I think that the odds are on my side. And if I waste 80 years, that's cool. I'm only 20, and the past 3 years have gone by faster than ever before. My life isn't going to slow down any bit.

"you don't know what debate is. you have proven nothing besides your own ignorance of science, simple definitions, and simple logic/critical thinking/reasoning skills."

Simple, yes, but I think it was enough to show how fake Evolution CAN be. This thread also points out how corrupted our government is, and how that corruption causes the USA to go down the drain.

"conclusion evolution is wrong."

That's not what I said. I said FORCING evolution down a 5 year old or 8 year old's mind is wrong. And Evolution CAN EITHER be wrong, or right. Whichever you beleive, but no proof of either one or the other.

Tibor


 

PennyTibz

Member
May 31, 2002
59
0
0
"So you're saying your religion cannot be proven and yet you continue to believe in it?"

Yes. Because there is evidence that it CAN be true. So I think it's worth the risk. I don't think that Evolution can be true (it may be able to be true, but I don't believe it for lack of evidence) because I believe Evolution is directly corrolated to the Big Bang, and the Big Bang is a theory based on lies (such as spontaneous generation).

"Why is your religion the only right one? Prove that christianity is the only religion invented by god. Provide me with some evidence of god."

The Bible admits outright that God cannot be shown/proven to those who do not have faith in him. I'm not going to preach here, or quote Bible verses, but there is one verse somewhere that explains that those who ask for a "Sign" from God (that is, in Bible terms, "proof"), will not receive it. They will not receive anything.

If you have faith in God, he will be shown to you, slowly, over time.

The evidence is the prophecies. There is also complete logic in the Bible, as well. There is no logic in Evolution / the Big Bang theory. And don't say that there is logic in science, because I already know that there is. And science and evolution / Big Bang are not the same thing.

No proof - not for the Christian God, not for Evolution, not for the Big Bang. But I will choose the one that is most rewarding, and the one that I believe to be true. That is the Christian God. If I went any further to explain, I'd be preaching, so I'll stop.

Tibor
 

jspeezy

Junior Member
Oct 23, 2002
4
0
0
i'm sorry man but "ANONYMITY BREEDS ABUSE" needs to go. While it is a point well taken, I see too much need for anonymity in this world to go around with that on my back. Look, why don't you replace it with CONFORMITY BREEDS MEDIOCRITY
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
No one argues that the marriage divorce rate in America started to go up exponentially in the 60's (which is when schools started teaching Evolution in public schools). And the divorce rate keeps going up. And yes, there is a large corollation. If Evolution had not been taught in schools, people would respect their spouse more, and also respect their kids more.


correlation does not mean causation. color tv grew in adoption exponentially in the 60's too, thats why the divorce rate kept going up. oh wait, blacks started gaining more equity in the 60's, thus the higher divorce rate huh? sorry, your arguement is pathetic.

I believe Christianity because I have witnessed evidence of the true God. That is explained above in my earlier posts. I won't type it again. The fact that I was raised in a Christian family is irrelevant. Even if I wasn't raised in a Christian family, I could still choose to beleive in God and not some other doctrine about how the earth got here.


by your own standards. show your evidence. ah yes, you can't. liar. and the inability to accept the fact that you would likely not be christian had you been born into another family or somewhere else is just shallow.

I never judged anyone. I simply said that there is no proof of Evolution, and that's what the textbooks tell to little kids - that there is proof for it. Even though it's a theory, the kids still believe it to be true and without doubt.

but your premise that there is no proof is invalid. there is proof, else science would discount it. because you discount say...the existence of dinosoars doesn't mean anything. you are not a scientific expert.


I know what C14 can and can't do. I've explained that in my above posts. Please read my story about the candle burning in the open space. It's just like C14 dating. And the guy driving from SF to NYC is a good explanation of how no one can tell the age of the earth. Those are both pretty good examples if you ask me.

which explains why you mistakenly used carbon 14 as your arguement against ability to date very old things...

and how does constant speed and inability to figure out start location relate to radiometric dating techiniques which are based on half lives?

it doesn't.


It's not accepted by the scientific community because the scientific community is confused about how the earth got here. They think that evolution is part of science, just because science is a part of evolution. 5 can fit into 8, but 8 can't fit into 5 - that was the "simple minded" example that I gave earlier.

evolution doesn't care how the earth got here. your confusing fundamental ideas.

how about this one, science is not part of creationism. creationism is not part of science. thats a valid arguement. yours is not.




Peer reviewed...yes...it's peer reviewed by a bunch of people who also believe in the same thing. That's like puting a black man murder suspect in a jury full of white, 50 year old men, in 1852, in the southern USA. Do you think he would have been found to be guilty or innocent? Of course they'd say he's guilty, because they all think the same thing. It's the same way with scientists who believe in evolution and the big bang theory.


scientists don't believe in something for no reason. there is scientific evidence that supports their conclusion. racism is not supported by science. your conclusion is not supported by science. that being said, my arguement probably doesn't make sense to you since you don't seem to understand science at all. you confuse blind faith with science. your faith has truely made you blind.



I don't care if you think about it. Just don't tell it to little 5 year old kids as being pure fact when that is not the case. They don't know the difference between the theory and a proven fact, you know. Proof builds more and more in one direction? There is a mentality building more and more in one direction, but not proof, though. Evolution continues to gain more support because more and more people are becoming confused about what evolution is.

ugh, talk about twisting. 5 year olds don't learn about evolution. if its even mentioned to a 5 year old its probably in context of dinosoars or cavemen.
the 2nd part of your arguement is 100% conjecture. there is zero proof in what your saying. but thats ok with you, since blind faith seems to be. ignore the mounting evidence since thats all you can do.

more and more people are confused about evolution? perhaps, because schools don't teach it adequately, which is why we hear ignorant statements such as "if i decended from a monkey, why are there still monkeys".


You can't prove the Bible. God won't allow it to be proven. In fact, it even says in the Bible that the Bible can't be proven.

oh, thats rich. you can give a bs answer to anything you don't know by invoking the name of god. its not an answer. your still falling back on circular reasoning.

and think a little. if you were writing a holy book that could not be proven, wouldn't you also write that it cannot be proven because its holy? only makes sense to cover your @ss. its common to many religioins.

The Bible is a book that teaches us about God and what right/wrong is,

based on the unprovable assumption that your bible is the real holy book out of many. its authority is based upon your blind faith.

and there is no other book in the world that exists that explains these things better.

unprovable and such arrogance.

Reasoning is defined differently by each person. Your logical reasoning is obviously different than mine. Our different outlook on life, and this debate, shows everyone that already.

actually critical thinking/logic are pretty standard. arguements can either be valid, or invalid. if one of your premises is not true or you commit one of many fallacies, your logic is flawed. logic is like math. 1+!=2 your math cannnot be different from mine, only wrong.

take a class in critical thought. you need it. desperately.


Anything that increases doubt in God is bad and wrong, and is a sin. Learning more science would actually make everyone a bit smarter. Learning more Evolution is downright destructive, however. Remember, I explained above how the words evolutiona and science are not interchangable. The same saying goes for learning about the Big Bang theory - it's destructive to human nature.

are you real?


The Big Bang theory is not backed by evidence. It's backed by assumptions, and even things that have been proven to be not true (such as spontaneous generation). Evolution has been stuffed into peoples' minds so that they think that Evolution and science are the same thing, when they are not.

this thread is about evoltuion, not big bang. either way, big bang has more evidence then your beliefs.

evolution and science ARE the same thing. science is the foundation of evolution. science is the foundation in any branch of science. get that into your thick skull.


Evolution and Christianity are both religious belief, except Christianity has prophecies that have come true. No other religion (that I know of) has done this. And I'm positive no other religion has had so many prophecies come true, if any at all.


ok, please people, if he offers you punch, don't drink it.

and i'm sorry, your full of sh*t. you are no expert on other religions, you don't seem to be an expert on anything.


I'm not trying to preach, man, sorry. I'm just trying to say that Evolution is a form of preaching. So is the Big Bang theory. They're both "preaching" not proving. Science proves, evolution doesn't. Not the same thing. I'm not trying to convert you to my belief. You will have to do that on your own by reading the Word of God (if you choose to do so). I have several reasons why my belief is more likely than that of other religions, but that is a whole different topic. That is like a whole different debate and will be like 5 pages worth of typing, and I'm not going to do that right now. The things that God said in the Bible that would come true, and have come true, is plenty of evidence for me to believe in Him.


oh god this is sad. i'm almost tired of trying. science is a method. evolution is a theory. gravity is a theory. science proves things yes. evolution doesn't prove things because it is a theory. your trying to twist everything to fit into the circular reasoning you love so much. evolution isn't credible because of a darwin holy book saying so, it does through scientific evidence.

the bible on the hand is supposedly credible only because it says it is. don't mix your science and religion.

and oh yea, go ahead and type your 5 pages of reasons. i'm sure the people of many faiths on atot would be interested.

somehow i doubt you'll have a rational arguement to make in all of 5 pages.



If I believe in God and he doesn't exist, I just lost 80 years.

If I don't believe in God and he DOES exist, I just lost eternity.

If I believe in God and he DOES exist, then I've won the battle for life.

If I don't believe in God, and he doesn't exist, then I've spend 80 years of my worthless life working up to becoming a piece of recycled material for some other species.

Lets see....2 out of 4 times, something REALLY bad happened. 1 out of 4 times something REALLY good happend. 1 out of 4 times nothing really happened.

I'll take my chances for the good thing. I think that the odds are on my side. And if I waste 80 years, that's cool. I'm only 20, and the past 3 years have gone by faster than ever before. My life isn't going to slow down any bit.


please don't tell me you pulled that one. do you even know what your arguement is called? yes, pascals wager. do you know its well known because its easily disproven? you are gambling your soul to selfishly gain access to heaven.

your assumptions are pathetic. perhaps god values reason which is why he gave us brains. seeing your blind faith, and selfish shallow reasons for faith and closing your mind he tosses you into hell.

you assume theres only one true religion and that it is yours. perhaps you chose wrong.

perhaps god is not egocentric enough to need people fawning over him.

perhaps he doesn't give a flying cr@p.

perhaps he hates you. oh i really do mean you.

perhaps there are more then one god.

and perhaps some of us aren't shallow enough to believe there is no meaning in life if there is no heaven.

that being said evolution and god aren't at odds. evolution only says that we are fundamnentally related to every living thing on the planet, from the smallest microbe, the the biggest tree. if that isn't beautiful, don't know what is. science is not supposed to answer questions of meaning, or why there is existence at all. that is spiritual. you've mixed and corrupted your ideas.



Simple, yes, but I think it was enough to show how fake Evolution CAN be. This thread also points out how corrupted our government is, and how that corruption causes the USA to go down the drain.

the only thing you've shown is your ignorance. you have no scientific or simple logical proof that damages evolution. you have only spewed fallacy in amounts i havn't seen in a long time.



That's not what I said. I said FORCING evolution down a 5 year old or 8 year old's mind is wrong.

don't bring up the 5 year old again. by your reasoning perhaps parents should not force religion on their 5-8 year olds. that being said, they learn it in high school, not preschool. that being said a preschool teacher won't tell a kid that dinosoars are tricks from satan to confuse followers.

And Evolution CAN EITHER be wrong, or right. Whichever you beleive, but no proof of either one or the other.

science is not based on belief. hammer that into your thick skull. evidence of evolution exists in droves. it exists whether or not you say it does. your efforts to force evolution down to the level of faith insults both faith and science.

 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
Yes. Because there is evidence that it CAN be true. So I think it's worth the risk. I don't think that Evolution can be true (it may be able to be true, but I don't believe it for lack of evidence) because I believe Evolution is directly corrolated to the Big Bang, and the Big Bang is a theory based on lies (such as spontaneous generation).


you base your reasoning on whether its worth the risk? your no better then a suicide bomber desperate for his 72 virgins. you are a greedy selfish believer, the worst possible reason for believing. ignorance is the price of heaven for you eh?

you don't see any evidence because you are ignorant of evidence. your scientific knowledge seems to be nothing more what you have gleened from creationist manuals. wholly inadequate information to reach a conclusion. but you could care less.

evolution is directly corrolated to the big bang? why? because you say so?

perhaps i'll claim that gravity is directly related to the 10 commandments.

did paltrow make another account?