Calling Medieval history buffs...

[jaydee]

I have an essay homework question that I've been struggling with for AP European history class. Here it is:

Contrast factors which led to the unification of France and Spain with those that prevented the unification of Italy and Germany. What are the primary characteristics of the "modern state"?

We're talking the time period from around late 15th century until mid 16th century. Now, I know that France had just successfully won the Hundred Years War, and when Charles the Bold died, the French divided and took over Burgundy, and Spain (united by Ferdinand and Isabelle's marriage) conquered the Moors (1492 Grenada falls), and conquered Navarre. They also controlled the Church (Spanish Holy Roman Emperor at the time I believe it was Charles I). The focus of power was shifting at this time from Nobles and clergy, to the local merchants/townspeople (what would be now considered the middle-class citizens) and the King (despite the Magna Carta in England a century prior) in Europe.
I don't know much relating to Germany and Italy other than they were the 'hotspots' of the Rennesiance (Nothern Italy of course supplied not only the artists in Da Vinci and Michelangelo, but also Petrarch, Dante, Machievelli and the like, while Germany was more of religious reform than social/intellectual and artistic), and were divided into many city-states at that time.
If you could help me out it would be very much appreciated. I may have seemed to answered my own question in part, but I need to know a bit more in answering the question fully. Also what is this 'modern state' characteristics referring to do you think? The essay needs to be written in 'PERSIA' form (paragraphs on each of the following: Political, Economical, Religious, Social, Intellectual, and Arts), but I'll take any help I can get. Thanks a lot guys in advance.

 

[meister]

sorry no help,

my period is from the 4th through the 13th centuries.

Mark

 

[ElFenix]

strong willed rulers with large armies united europe. france has natural boundaries, according to louis 13. plus he wanted all francophones in his state. so he expanded the borders. spain has natural borders as well. for some reason portugal didn't join in with the rest of the iberian kingdoms, i'm not sure as to why.

or maybe i should go earlier... cardinal richeliou
maybe even the 30 years war

 

[jaydee]

<< strong willed rulers with large armies united europe. france has natural boundaries, according to louis 13. plus he wanted all francophones in his state. so he expanded the borders. spain has natural borders as well. for some reason portugal didn't join in with the rest of the iberian kingdoms, i'm not sure as to why.
or maybe i should go earlier... cardinal richeliou
maybe even the 30 years war >>


I think Portugal was more interested in checking out the west coast of Africa than any military conquests.
Italy had natural boundries too, why not Italy? I think they were in constant chaos and were invaded by the French a little later on, would their instability be the main reason for their divided country. What do you think? Germany seemed a bit more stable although that came apart after awhile too (namely the Protestant Reformation started there).

 

[ElFenix]

italian rulers refused to bend knee to any other until napoleon conquered them and stole their most valuable art works.
it took a couple of wars for germany to be unified. first denmark, then austria, then france.

 

[MichaelD]

Bump for an interesting thread. I did well in this stuff in high school......................................................................................................in 1984. I'm overworked, underpaid and brain dead now.

 

[jaydee]

Napolean? Wasn't it Charles VIII?

 

[MustPost]

Wow, I just did a similar question in AP Euro.
Do you have a book?
The "What makes a 'modern state?'" Question sounds like your teacher has a specific answer in mind. But I could debate that All 4 of the contries you mentianed had some of the qualities.

 

[joohang]

Not my strong time period of history, but I'll do what I can do. You probably know a lot more facts than I do, so I'll just provide my opinions.

Unification - Unify what? Since when were these countries, "France," "Spain," "Italy," and "Germany?" France as in the area where the Francs occupied? Germany as in where all Germans lived? How were these ethnic groups determined to begin with? I'm sorry if I'm just bringing in irrelevant confusion to the topic, but I thought I'd address that I don't agree with that term.

The sense of "France," "Germany," and "Italy" probably came when Charlemagne's sons partitioned his empire after his death. I don't know much about the "unification" of France and Italy, but Germany was unified under brillant diplomacy of Bismarck. Germany was partitioned into tiny feudal states and Bismarck used a combination of force and diplomacy to create a confederation (the "Second Reich"). I believe that the "unification" of Italy was through military force, although I'm not sure about this one.

I never took a course on this time period so don't believe everything I say. I'm just sharing what I know based on my previous readings.


Characteristics of a "modern state" IMO:
- Loyalty of people and government is to the nation, not a royal family.
- Clear separation of a personal budget of the ruler from the nation's.
- Government of a modern state is impersonal - but not necessarily democratic.
- Represents the general population and does not treat citizens as the ruler's "subjects."
- Separation of state from church (maybe).

The definition of a "modern state" varies from scholar to scholar, however. I wouldn't say that European states in the 15th and 16th centuries were "modern states."

 

[jaydee]

The Western Heritage seventh edition by Prentice Hall.

All our questions are coming from this book, because that is what the AP exam will most closely resemble (so they say).


<< Unification - Unify what? Since when were these countries, "France," "Spain," "Italy," and "Germany?" France as in the area where the Francs occupied? Germany as in where all Germans lived? How were these ethnic groups determined to begin with? >>


Just like today, their aren't exactly lines painted on the dirt, just the proximaty I guess. They had more walls, and stuff then anyways.

Bismarc was a bit later on, and really (IMO) it was just the Franco-Prussian war that unified Germany, but that's besides the point. Germany had their fuedal-states and Italy their city-states which kept them from unification as a whole. Also I think I said earlier, the invasion of Italy by France (Charles VIII) surly didn't help.
Thanks for the post joohang

I think I have most of what I need at this time. I don't really need to write the essay, there is a 4/8 chance that I'll have to write one in class though without books/notes so I need to be prepared.

I'll be back about 5:30AM EST to look this over one more time before school, thanks a lot for all the help.

 

[rahvin]

The biggest difference between France/Spain and Germany/Italy was the strong central goverment in France and spain. In Italy and Germany local powers still held all the control. Italy is by far the best example of this with in the neighborhood of 500 local rulers at the time, politics were fierce and led to the Machiavelli's letter to the "Prince". In a sense Germany/Italy remained in fuedal times as France/Spain moved on to central Monarchy's. This breakdown of the local "lord" structure in the states of France and Spain resulted in strong central power and unified nationalism and resulted in a rise in the middle class as the merchant trading class and guilds gained power in the abscence of local feudalism.

I'm really butchering this and don't have the mental strength to fix it but hopefully you see what I'm talking about. Italy and Germany still remained in a situation where the power and money remained with the local Lords and the King/Central government was at the mercy of those lords for funding. France united under a central authority with loss of monetary and land control by the Local lords and later during the revolution the population eliminated the nobility to further the strength of the central government.

Warning I never took this class and I'm not strong on any of the countries but Italy but I am fairly certain the question is directed at the lack of central power in italy and germany at the time.

 

[MustPost]

Rahvin, youve said what happened, but not why.