Calling ATOT electricians

[Crucial]

I am doing a little garage rewiring and made up a diagram of what I intend to do. I need someone to look it over and tell me if anything is wrong with it.

diagram

I am working with existing items for some of it so there are some things that can't be changed.

Edit: I have run 12ga wire for the white/black, is 14 sufficient for the ground or should that be 12 as well?

 

[Greenman]

Looks fine, don't forget the grounds.

 

[Crucial]

The line coming into the garage has no ground. Just black and white. The existing wiring inside the garage doesn't have any either. Is there an easy way to add it other than burying a new set of wires from the house?

 

[dullard]

You want to run 12 outlets from an unknown line from your house? Is that line on a 15A fuse/circuit breaker? Do you know if anything else (inside the house) is running on that same line?

While I'm not an electrician, I know that there are rules of thumb on how many outlets to connect to a single line. If you assume a fairly conservative 1.5A per outlet, you have a max of 10 outlets on a 15A line. In that case (and even more so if that line has other outlets inside the house) you may be blowing a lot of fuses. This is especially true since many garage tools suck up a lot of current.

But, with garage tools, you often are only running one thing at once. So, if that is the case, you will probably be fine.

 

[Crucial]

That line is a 15A circuit that isn't shared with the rest of the house.

4 of the outlets will be used for flourescent lights. 2 others are for the garage door so really only one will be used. One other will be for the air compressor and the remaining 4 are for whatever I might plug into them. 2 receptacles are within 2 feet of each other(I don't know why) so I think I will be eliminating one of those.

 

[BigJ]

If the garage has accessible outlets (you can easily plug something into them) it has to be either a GFCI or down the line from a GFCI. Your garage door opener receptacle (depending on its location) may not fall into this category. All other accessible outlets do.

Some flourescent lights will malfunction without a proper ground in place. Keep that in mind.

If you want to do things right, just install new runs of 12/2 Romex and replace the existing wiring from the panel with 12/2. Have the first outlet on the line be wired with a GFCI receptacle. Otherwise things may get a little messy in how you ground that run.

If the wiring is all 12ga, you can also then replace the breaker with a 20a SP breaker. Look on your panel for the manufacturer to get the correct brand of breaker. For the most part, Murray, Siemens, Cutler-Hammer, and a few other manufacturers are pretty much all interchangeable. Square D and GE are two brands that get messy matching up sometimes.

Also wondering, why on earth do you have 3 switched outlets? You're going to just plug in the lights instead of hard-wiring I assume?

EDIT: If you're going to ground the line to a water pipe, you are NOT going to use 14ga wire. You're going to either run 12 or 10ga wire (THWN I believe) to a metal water pipe within the first 5' of it entering the house. Either that, or you're installing a new ground rod.

EDIT 2: New THHN wire (most commonly sold single conductor at improvement stores) is going to be THWN rated so you'll be fine using that.

 

[AgaBoogaBoo]

Not sure if the wiring is sound, but I hope it's electrical

 

[Pepsi1337]

Per code, you are fine...I think. How long are the flourescent lights and how many lamps are there?

Figure out the kW for each of the types of load:

Lights * 1.25 +
Motors +
Largest Motor * 0.25 +
Duplex Receptacles * 0.18

As long as you are under 1.20kW, your circuit is conservative.

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: Pepsi1337
Per code, you are fine...I think. How long are the flourescent lights and how many lamps are there?

Figure out the kW for each of the types of load:

Lights * 1.25 +
Motors +
Largest Motor * 0.25 +
Duplex Receptacles * 0.18

As long as you are under 1.20kW, your circuit is conservative.

Got your Ugly's?

 

[hanoverphist]

Originally posted by: Crucial
The line coming into the garage has no ground. Just black and white. The existing wiring inside the garage doesn't have any either. Is there an easy way to add it other than burying a new set of wires from the house?

if youre bringing power from your house, your ground has to originate there also (well, must is harsh... should is better). creating a separate ground loop in the garage could be more hale than just running a new #12 for a ground. whats the distance from breaker to the garage? listen to the GFCI guy too. and i think i would look at the draw on your garage door, all the ones ive seen were 20A service. air comps and garage doors both pull a lot fast, so it may be a spot you want a bit more strenuous power available.

 

[Greenman]

Originally posted by: dullard
You want to run 12 outlets from an unknown line from your house? Is that line on a 15A fuse/circuit breaker? Do you know if anything else (inside the house) is running on that same line?

While I'm not an electrician, I know that there are rules of thumb on how many outlets to connect to a single line. If you assume a fairly conservative 1.5A per outlet, you have a max of 10 outlets on a 15A line. In that case (and even more so if that line has other outlets inside the house) you may be blowing a lot of fuses. This is especially true since many garage tools suck up a lot of current.

But, with garage tools, you often are only running one thing at once. So, if that is the case, you will probably be fine.

His drawing shows 6 outlets, each device only counts as one.

Rule of thumb is to figure 1.5 amps per outlet and only use 80% of breaker capacity.

Around here, a water pipe isn't an accepted ground, a driven copper clad steel rod is what you have to use.

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: Greenman

Around here, a water pipe isn't an accepted ground, a driven copper clad steel rod is what you have to use.

Ahh yes I forgot to state the obvious.

Local code will vary widely from area to area. Your best bet is getting a hold of the town and see what special restrictions they have.

 

[randay]

no i dont think it will make any sounds, maybe if you swing it around in the air it might make a whipping or whooshing sound.

 

[Crucial]

I'm not looking to bury a new cable or anything at this time. Ideally I would have 220 running to the garage on it's own sub panel branching into 2 independent circuits from which I could run as many tools as I want. The garage is small and I wouldn't bother with anything more unless I was tearing it down and putting in something bigger.

The current setup is 2 wires coming from the house buried under the back yard and driveway. These enter the garage through a small piece of pipe into the side of the garage. This turns into some sort of thick romex looking cable thats not romex. It's almost like lead or something like that. It runs along the floor up to a receptacle which then runs to the second receptacle. This is then run to the receptacle for the garage door opener which is switched. I have no idea if it's possible to run a ground wire through the buried pipe. It was built 50 years ago and could possibly be something else under ground. I could try and run a fish through the pipe but I don't want to damage anything underground.

I installed 4 fluorescent lights which are 2 - 4 foot tubes of the smaller diameter type. These are plug in type which is why I wanted to add the 2 switched receptacles. The 3rd switched receptacle was added on for the air compressor or any other tool I may plug in on the bench.

The garage door opener has never tripped a circuit before. It is lifting a single space door. The lights and air compressor have been run off of extension cords plugged into the existing receptacles. I have never tripped a breaker running any of this. I don't need expanded capacity as I don't run a lot of power tools at the same time. Maybe an occasional miter saw or circular saw. I am mainly looking to make the existing switch usable for the lights and to eliminate the extension cords.

I could buy some fluorescent lights that are directly wired into the system. The boxes are there and it wouldn't be hard to change it to that type. I asked about the ground wire because I figured I might as well install the ground wire in the conduit while I am putting in new wires. I don't know if you should use 12ga or 14ga in the circuit for ground. I was under the impression that you could use one gauge smaller for the ground wire than the others in the circuit. I have heard of people grounding the system to the conduit that is buried. I could try to do that but only if it will work.

And haha very funny to the jokesters.

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: Crucial
The current setup is 2 wires coming from the house buried under the back yard and driveway. These enter the garage through a small piece of pipe into the side of the garage. This turns into some sort of thick romex looking cable thats not romex. It's almost like lead or something like that. It runs along the floor up to a receptacle which then runs to the second receptacle. This is then run to the receptacle for the garage door opener which is switched. I have no idea if it's possible to run a ground wire through the buried pipe. It was built 50 years ago and could possibly be something else under ground. I could try and run a fish through the pipe but I don't want to damage anything underground.

I could buy some fluorescent lights that are directly wired into the system. The boxes are there and it wouldn't be hard to change it to that type. I asked about the ground wire because I figured I might as well install the ground wire in the conduit while I am putting in new wires. I don't know if you should use 12ga or 14ga in the circuit for ground. I was under the impression that you could use one gauge smaller for the ground wire than the others in the circuit. I have heard of people grounding the system to the conduit that is buried. I could try to do that but only if it will work.

What do you mean by "lead" looking cable? Is it armored cable (typically called BX, although there are many other different types of AC)? How about knob-and-tube wiring?

Again, DO NOT USE A 14ga WIRE FOR GROUNDING. Use at least 12ga. If you ever decide to convert it to a 20a circuit, it has to be 12ga or heavier. It's not that much more expensive per foot and is definitely worth it.

Here is the chart on grounding:

Table 250.122. Minimum Size Equipment Grounding Conductors for Grounding Raceway and Equipment Rating or Setting of Automatic Overcurrent Device in Circuit Ahead of

Amperage/Size of Conductor for Copper Wire/Size of Conductor for Aluminum wire
15-14-12
20-12-10
30-10-8
40-10-8
60-10-8
100-8-6
200-6-4
300-4-2
400-3-1
500-2-1/0

For 15A you can use 14ga. But once you hit 20A, it's gotta be 12ga. It's only a couple more cents per foot; just go with the 12ga.

 

[Crucial]

done. Now I just need to figure out if I can ground it without burying a new cable.

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: Crucial
done. Now I just need to figure out if I can ground it without burying a new cable.

If you wind up having to run a ground from the panel, do yourself a favor and just run all new THHN wires through the existing conduit.

For all intents and purposes, Romex through conduit isn't allowed.

 

[Crucial]

Thats what I would run if I did it that way. I really have no idea what is in there now. It's pretty old so who knows what they used.