Calling ATOT Electricians - Light switch issue

[spacejamz]

Need help troubleshooting this issue...

I have light fixture over my stair case that is controlled by two switches, one at the top and one at the bottom of the stairs...

Either of the switches will the turn the light on. However, only the switch that turned it on can turn it off. If I turn the lights on from the bottom, I can't turn it off when I get to the top.

Both switches were able to turn on/off the light at some point in the past so I am not sure if one of the switches went bad...how do I tell which switch or it is easier to just replace both of them?

 

[kn51]

Weird. So you didn't change anything? They are three-way switches if you want to read up.

 

[Iron Woode]

check the traveler wire (usually red) at both switches. It controls this function.

if a switch has failed, it's not hard to replace it. Remember to turn the electricity off first.

 

[Humpy]

Get this:

 

[Kwatt]

If you know which switch is the 1st in the circuit. (it is the one connected to the panel) The other switch is bad. (it is the one connected to the light)

Panel -- 1st switch -- travelers -- 2nd switch -- light.

2nd switch = bad.

.

 

[Greenman]

If only there was a forum section for questions like this.

 

[IronWing]

Might as well replace both switches as they cost less than the trip to the hardware store.

 

[IBMJunkman]

https://www.easy-do-it-yourself-home-improvements.com/3-way-switch-wiring-diagram.html

 

[Red Squirrel]

3 way switches can be tricky especially if you don't know which wire is what. There is a common terminal and then the two switching terminals, you need to figure out which is which and then figure out what wire goes where,t hen wire it as per a diagram. You can figure out which one is the common by playing with the switch using a couple batteries and light bulb or something, or continuity tester. (remove switch to do this)

Depending on how the power feed comes into the circuit it may be safe to just brute force, try different wire combinations until it works. Just ensure you test voltages as you do this to ensure you won't create a dead short. This is safer if the power feed goes to the light first.

 

[NoTine42]

https://www.easy-do-it-yourself-home-improvements.com/3-way-switch-wiring-diagram.html

Holy electrical diagrams, Batman, on Options 4+

I have a few switches that are supposed to be 3-way but are missing the traditional wires for scenarios 1-3.. they might be useable with some of those 4+ ones

 

[Iron Woode]

Holy electrical diagrams, Batman, on Options 4+

I have a few switches that are supposed to be 3-way but are missing the traditional wires for scenarios 1-3.. they might be useable with some of those 4+ ones

LOL

all of those diagrams are straight forward.

Try doing 3 switches (one will be a 4-way) with any of those diagrams:

https://www.easy-do-it-yourself-home-improvements.com/4-way-switch-wiring-diagram.html

 

[skull]

Holy electrical diagrams, Batman, on Options 4+

I have a few switches that are supposed to be 3-way but are missing the traditional wires for scenarios 1-3.. they might be useable with some of those 4+ ones

3 on are against code these days as you have to have a neutral in every switch box.

 

[spacejamz]

Might as well replace both switches as they cost less than the trip to the hardware store.

Both switches replaced and all is well in the world again

it was a major PITA to push the release button to pop out the wires on one of the old switches though (the original installers used the plug in wires on one switch but just used the screws on the other one)...

 

[Iron Woode]

3 on are against code these days as you have to have a neutral in every switch box.

everyone of them has a neutral in the switch box.

 

[skull]

everyone of them has a neutral in the switch box.

Did you look at the diagrams just because its white doesn't mean its a neutral.

 

[skull]

Oh and thanks people like you thinking white is always neutral, are why we have these stupid rules. Its part of the dumbing down of the electric code so DIYers don't hurt themselves.

 

[Red Squirrel]

What you want to figure out is where the power comes in from. Is it going to one of the switches first, or to the light. Once you figure that out it will make those diagrams easier to understand.

Option 4 and the others where the travel wire goes through the lights is a bit more complicated though, as far as being able to deal with in the future. I personally would not do it that way, but I can see why you would if it's physically impossible to have wire going between both switches.

Sometimes it's easier to get a long extension cord with a plug end with bare wires, some crocodile clips and a continuity tester so you can test each wire to see where it goes. Turn power off first. Then start to draw out the diagram on paper, then you have a better idea what you're dealing with.

 

[Iron Woode]

Oh and thanks people like you thinking white is always neutral, are why we have these stupid rules. Its part of the dumbing down of the electric code so DIYers don't hurt themselves.

I am a certified Electrical Technologist.

we know which wire is neutral and which is power. If we use the black as a neutral we label it with colour coded tape. If we use a white as power we label it with colour coded tape.

maybe try going to school for this like some of us have.

 

[skull]

I am a certified Electrical Technologist.

we know which wire is neutral and which is power. If we use the black as a neutral we label it with colour coded tape. If we use a white as power we label it with colour coded tape.

maybe try going to school for this like some of us have.

Then how come you can't tell there is no neutral in some of those switch boxes in those circuits? Is it because the other guy didn't put black tape on the white wire? Do you even know how a 3 way switch works?

 

[skull]

Holy electrical diagrams, Batman, on Options 4+

I have a few switches that are supposed to be 3-way but are missing the traditional wires for scenarios 1-3.. they might be useable with some of those 4+ ones

I should mention if your circuits were originally set up for 3 ways with no neutral in the switch box and somebody came along and screwed it up. You can fix it, it'd be grandfathered in. However if you have to modify the circuit say pull a new wire in. Then it has to be down to modern code. Well it doesn't have to be, I just choose to do most things to code.

 

[Iron Woode]

Then how come you can't tell there is no neutral in some of those switch boxes in those circuits? Is it because the other guy didn't put black tape on the white wire? Do you even know how a 3 way switch works?

I over-generalized, pardon me.

not every single one has the neutral in a switch box. so what? it is not against code to use a white as power.

 

[skull]

I over-generalized, pardon me.

not every single one has the neutral in a switch box. so what? it is not against code to use a white as power.

Its against code not to have a neutral in a switch box now, like I said in the beginning. They say it has to do with both EMF and occupancy sensors needing a neutral even if you are not using an occupancy sensor at the time it still has to have a neutral in the switch box so some handyman doesn't come by later and use the ground as a neutral for the occupancy sensor.

 

[Iron Woode]

Its against code not to have a neutral in a switch box now, like I said in the beginning. They say it has to do with both EMF and occupancy sensors needing a neutral even if you are not using an occupancy sensor at the time it still has to have a neutral in the switch box so some handyman doesn't come by later and use the ground as a neutral for the occupancy sensor.

that's not in our code, yet.

Use of identified conductors
4-036(2). Where armoured cable, aluminum sheathed cable, copper sheathed cable or non metallic sheathed cable containing an identified conductor is used for single-pole, three way or four way switch loops, it shall not be necessary to render the identified conductor permanently unidentified at the switch if the connections are made so that an unidentified conductor is the return conductor from the switch to the outlet.

further :

Topic: Wiring & Wiring Methods
Category: Conductors
Subject: clarification of 4-028

Question:

Hello,
It's common practice to wire switches, especially
3-wasy, without a neutral at each switch location.
4-028 could be taken to mean that this is not allowed.
Please clarify the intent of 4-028 in general
and specifically whether it, or any other rule,
requires a neutral at every switch location.
Thank You.

Answer:

--- (AskESA) 1/16/2017 9:15:41 AM
Rule 4-028 of the Ontario Electrical Safety Code specifies "how" a neutral conductor must be installed "when" it is required. If the neutral conductor is not required, which may be in the case of a light switch, this rule would not apply. However, if the wiring is such that the neutral is brought into the light switch box, it must be installed per the requirements of this rule.