Calling all ATOT landlords

Sho'Nuff

Diamond Member
Jul 12, 2007
6,211
121
106
Long story short, I am considering buying a small apartment building as an investment property. The building houses 6 units (3 single BR's, 3 two BR's), and is located in what I believe is a pretty good location (Portsmouth NH). The list price is just under $380,000, so this is obviously not a "luxury" property by any streatch of the imagination. I estimate that ~$50,000 worth of renovations would be needed to place all the apartments in rentable condition. Presently, all units are unrented due to the need for said renovations.

Based on discussions with several real estate agents, a subjective evaluation of the property, and an analysis of the rental markets in and around Portsmouth, it is my opinion that this building presents an interesting income opportunity. Indeed, with the amount I could put down and an expected rent of $700-900/month per apartment, I expect that I could gross (not including expenses) ~$2000-3400/month. Possibly more.

That being said, I have never been a landlord before, much less a landlord for a multiunit building. Does anyone hear have any experience managing/owning this type of property? Any war stories/words of advice? Would it be better to try and manage the property on my own, or hire a management company? Am I crazy for considering this?
 
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ultimatebob

Lifer
Jul 1, 2001
25,134
2,450
126
Think about forming an LLC to protect yourself against liability if someone gets hurt at your property.
 

tk149

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2002
7,253
1
0
I believe that you will fall under the non-racial discrimination laws because of the number of units.

Even if you don't discriminate, you had better have adequate proof that you don't. There are people out there who make a living off suing.
 

Vette73

Lifer
Jul 5, 2000
21,503
9
0
Yep, say no to section 8

Make sure you do back ground checks

Make sure the contract follows state law, but also give you every LEGAL option to remove someone.

Repairs will always cost more than you think, and don;t try and cheap out. It will only cost more the 2nd time.

Check the local crime report out. See if the area has a good rep to it. If not then don't look for renters to come quickly or at least good ones.

See if there are any permit issues before you buy. Many fly by nighters do repirs/upgrades that can bite you in the butt if a renter complains to the local Gov.

And don;t forget to set up a LLC for ownership. That way if something happens it only happens to your business, not YOU as a whole.
 

highland145

Lifer
Oct 12, 2009
43,973
6,338
136
Dont allow section 8
+1

Get accurate # on property tax and liability ins. Renovations #'s should be looked at by a contractor/pro that you trust. Plumbing, hvac, sewer, electrical are all $$ pits if there are problems. Figure 80% occupancy for your calculations.
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,808
83
91
when I'm apartment hunting, I don't even bother responding to ads that promote the fact that they accept section 8
 

Sho'Nuff

Diamond Member
Jul 12, 2007
6,211
121
106
OK, understood on the section 8.

As for an LLC, no worries there. I am an attorney and am well versed in the benefits and drawbacks of the different forms of ownership and of the value of incorporation as a corporation, LLC, etc. I am also certain that I can draft an appropriate lease/contract, though I would have a real estate attorney review anything I draft to make sure I have all the bases covered and don't unknowingly violate any laws.

The crime rate throughout Portsmouth is quite low. This particular building is in a fairly good part of town as well. Easy walking distance to a major grocery store, about a 15 minute walk to the downtown area (huge plus in Portsmouth), etc. The only reason it is empty seems to be the need for the repairs I mentioned.

But, I am still hesitant. It is probably just the market as a whole, but this building has been sitting vacant for ~10 months now. If it was as good an opportunity as I believe it to be, why hasn't someone purchased it already? I just have this nagging feeling I am missing something.

Despite all these positive notes, I am hesitance
 

highland145

Lifer
Oct 12, 2009
43,973
6,338
136
OK, understood on the section 8.

As for an LLC, no worries there. I am an attorney and am well versed in the benefits and drawbacks of the different forms of ownership and of the value of incorporation as a corporation, LLC, etc. I am also certain that I can draft an appropriate lease/contract, though I would have a real estate attorney review anything I draft to make sure I have all the bases covered and don't unknowingly violate any laws.

The crime rate throughout Portsmouth is quite low. This particular building is in a fairly good part of town as well. Easy walking distance to a major grocery store, about a 15 minute walk to the downtown area (huge plus in Portsmouth), etc. The only reason it is empty seems to be the need for the repairs I mentioned.

But, I am still hesitant. It is probably just the market as a whole, but this building has been sitting vacant for ~10 months now. If it was as good an opportunity as I believe it to be, why hasn't someone purchased it already? I just have this nagging feeling I am missing something.

Despite all these positive notes, I am hesitance
Any friends with rentals? Real estate agents/attorneys in the know?

Or just let me hold your $$ for you in my very profitable cookie jar.:D
 

Vette73

Lifer
Jul 5, 2000
21,503
9
0
OK, understood on the section 8.

As for an LLC, no worries there. I am an attorney and am well versed in the benefits and drawbacks of the different forms of ownership and of the value of incorporation as a corporation, LLC, etc. I am also certain that I can draft an appropriate lease/contract, though I would have a real estate attorney review anything I draft to make sure I have all the bases covered and don't unknowingly violate any laws.

The crime rate throughout Portsmouth is quite low. This particular building is in a fairly good part of town as well. Easy walking distance to a major grocery store, about a 15 minute walk to the downtown area (huge plus in Portsmouth), etc. The only reason it is empty seems to be the need for the repairs I mentioned.

But, I am still hesitant. It is probably just the market as a whole, but this building has been sitting vacant for ~10 months now. If it was as good an opportunity as I believe it to be, why hasn't someone purchased it already? I just have this nagging feeling I am missing something.

Despite all these positive notes, I am hesitance


Could be it sat as....

1: Nobody can get the money to buy it, let alone fix it. Can you get money for it and also be able to make payments if you only get less then half the places rented in the first 6 months?

2: Have you looked to see what rent is like for similar property? Maybe there are other places that are renting cheaper so the buy price+repair makes it not worth it.

3: Rentals usually do not make a lot of money real fast. Many are looking for things to turn over faster and/or have a better rate of return.

4: What is the rate of fill for your area? Could be there are a lot of unrented places. How do you rent when they can;t?

KISS. Keep It Simple Stupid. Ask the basic questions and alwasy double check.
 

Sluggo

Lifer
Jun 12, 2000
15,488
5
81
My father looked at an apartment building a year or so ago. He had figured a 50% occupancy rate to meet expenses, so it was a pretty good deal. Negotiations finally fell apart on the condition of the roof, so it was a no go.

Do get your renovation figures checked out, it sounds low, but of course i have not seen the building. Also make sure you have a large "emergency fund" to help you through the first few months of payments and renovation costs before you start receiving any income. It takes longer and costs much more than you think it will.

A property management company will probably take 10% of the gross, and may not care for the property any better than you could do yourself. Some people give a discounted rate on one apartment, for an on-site manager to handle that stuff.
 

wyvrn

Lifer
Feb 15, 2000
10,074
0
0
Long story short, I am considering buying a small apartment building as an investment property. The building houses 6 units (3 single BR's, 3 two BR's), and is located in what I believe is a pretty good location (Portsmouth NH). The list price is just under $380,000, so this is obviously not a "luxury" property by any streatch of the imagination. I estimate that ~$50,000 worth of renovations would be needed to place all the apartments in rentable condition. Presently, all units are unrented due to the need for said renovations.

Based on discussions with several real estate agents, a subjective evaluation of the property, and an analysis of the rental markets in and around Portsmouth, it is my opinion that this building presents an interesting income opportunity. Indeed, with the amount I could put down and an expected rent of $700-900/month per apartment, I expect that I could gross (not including expenses) ~$2000-3400/month. Possibly more.

That being said, I have never been a landlord before, much less a landlord for a multiunit building. Does anyone hear have any experience managing/owning this type of property? Any war stories/words of advice? Would it be better to try and manage the property on my own, or hire a management company? Am I crazy for considering this?

I am a ten year landlord and real estate investor. Based upon what you have said, I would say walk away from the investment. But if you insist, here are my suggestions.

1) You need to do a lot of research on apartment rental rates for YOUR SPECIFIC AREA and YOUR SPECIFIC BUILDING type. I can use a service in Texas, http://www.alnsystems.com/ , that collects this information for me. If you cannot find a similar service in your area, contact your local real estate investor associations or even your local realtors. Drive around and call similar apartments and find out what they rent for. Above all, KNOW your rental market backwards and forwards before you ever buy anything. You need good rental data to figure your income reliably, or nothing else you do will matter when figuring bottom line.

2) Call the City Development office and see what projects are going on in your area. Try to find out if they are putting in a new park, road, school, or retail development that may raise rents in your area. This puts money in your pocket without you having to do anything. The clerks in the office are often very helpful to have as friends, and many times they will put all developments online for you as well. You can use the city development map to find areas to invest in, rather than finding a specific deal and trying to make that one work against the local environmental variables. This step is called developing your AREA OF EXPERTISE. Don't ever invest in real estate unless you know your area backwards and forwards.

3) Since this is commercial (more than 4 units), you figure price by taking EXISTING net income and dividing by cap rate for that property type. Price is NOT calculated the same as in residential real estate based on comparable sales. Since your building sits unrented, you either need good data or you lowball the offer to give yourself lots of cushion.

The fact it has been sitting so long tells me the serious investors don't feel as though it is worth that price. They don't have rental and expense data to calculate a Net Income, so they skipped it or made lowball offers that did not get accepted by the seller.

Ask the real estate broker for past financials. The previous owner should have books and tax returns to show you what the property used to make in past years, even if it is vacant now.

4) Get a mentor. Again, find a local investment club. They will have purchased similar buildings in your area, will have comparable financial data, and can give you a ballpark answer whether this is a good investment or not. That is better than the data you have now, which is nothing other than a randomly made-up sales price.

Otherwise, you are taking ALL the risk in the decisions. Might as well buy stocks and hope they go up because you have about as much chance, without all the hassles in apartment ownership.

5) Read this book or similar before you spend any of your money:

http://www.amazon.com/Real-Book-Esta...3508113&sr=8-4

6) As far as managing, this is a 6 unit so you will do it yourself. It makes no financial sense to hire someone full time. And the only people you can get part time will not run your building well, they will treat it like a job at McDonalds. If you hire an 'independent' propety manager that has other units they manage for owners, they will not treat your property as an investment, as you would, but as a means to a paycheck. In other words, they will not discipline your tenants or take care of it like an investment because they will not have to deal with the messes they created when you fire them.

At the end of the day, I am telling you to get educated on all aspects of property management, then buy stuff. You are contemplating learning on the job, which is what breaks most investors and loses fortunes. That is an extremely risky scenario.

Good deals are always there. When you know what you are looking for, they pop out at you. You have no idea right now what you have your hands on.
 

Sho'Nuff

Diamond Member
Jul 12, 2007
6,211
121
106
Wyvrn:

All good advice. Thanks.

I think I can sum up much of what you are saying into two words, i.e., "Due Diligence." And it definitely sounds like I need to do more before moving forward. Thankfully, I think I know the right people to ask in my town for advice. I know the town clerk, and I have a contact with a real estate agency that has been operating successfully in the area for many, many years. I'll give him a ring and see what he has to say.

Thanks again,

Sox
 

wyvrn

Lifer
Feb 15, 2000
10,074
0
0
Wyvrn:

All good advice. Thanks.

I think I can sum up much of what you are saying into two words, i.e., "Due Diligence." And it definitely sounds like I need to do more before moving forward. Thankfully, I think I know the right people to ask in my town for advice. I know the town clerk, and I have a contact with a real estate agency that has been operating successfully in the area for many, many years. I'll give him a ring and see what he has to say.

Thanks again,

Sox

Any time! I learned the hard way and almost quit investing in my early years. Now I wouldn't consider being without rental properties, knowing what I know about them.

Good luck to you.
 

drinkmorejava

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2004
3,567
7
81
For the hassle and liability, I feel like a maximum return of 4-5%/yr seems not worth it. Private investment group under any of the large banks should be able to get you that without much of an issue.
 

dandruff

Golden Member
Jan 28, 2000
1,407
6
81
wow ... so much misinformation ...

1. yay on section 8 (screen / screen / screen) - i love section 8
2. no need for llc - if you are actively managing the units it wont do a thing - instead load up on liability coverage - you are an attorney, I prolly dont have to tell you this ...
3. I would not touch this property (different criteria tho)

pm me if you want an sprdsht i use to analyze properties or a sample lease ...

go here : http://www.reiclub.com/forums/index.php/board,39.0.html

to learn about Asset Protection etc.

best of luck!
 

Dubb

Platinum Member
Mar 25, 2003
2,495
0
0
your repair estimate seems low. 50K won't go very far when you have 6 kitchens, 6-12 bathrooms, etc. to fix up, plus roof, exterior, etc.

if it's an older building in a city there may be historic district issues to deal with, and possibly tax credits for repairing a historic structure - though usually you have to come up with a repair bill in excess of your cost basis in the structure.