Calling all ATOT Homeowners in the Northeast

[MoMeanMugs]

I bought a brand new house in New England in February, which was finished in December. There's an unfinished room on the 3rd floor that I think I eventually want to turn into a theater room. It currently has no insulation in the walls or roof area. It has soffit vents, so rafters will need to be put in. I want to get it insulated soon for a couple reasons: to keep snow from turning into ice on the shingles in winter due to melting and refreezing, and to keep bugs out. Some wasps made a nest in there, and some carpenter ants made a round as well to look for food. I sprayed borax all over the room, and I haven't seen the ants back since. I'm also concerned about long terms effects of exposure to moisture and mildew. I've been looking into polyurethane insulation as opposed to the traditional fiberglass. I'm looking more for a good seal that won't absorb moisture as opposed to a high R value. My house has baseboard heating, and if it stays cold in the room, I'm okay with that (there are tubes run in case I want to add heat to the room).

I got a quote for fiberglass, which includes adding the rafters. This came out to ~$1,800. I also got a quote for the polyurethane, which is ~$4,000 (was quoted 4,300 board feet with 3" thick). The latter seems slightly high, even for what seems to be more quality from the research I've done. I also looked into the DIY kits from places like Lowe's. The kits are expensive @ ~$800 for 620 board feet.

For you attic experts, I'm looking for some advice on this whole project. For what I'm looking for as far as requirements, will fiberglass be a concern? If so, is the polyurethane the best bet? I'm good with my hands, but if by the time material costs are added in for a DIY job, maybe it makes sense to pay to have it done. I should add that the sheet rock probably won't be put in until next year because I've blown way past my house budget for the year, but that's the fun of having a house (I go into Lowe's with one item in mind and spend hours looking around)! The reason I add this as I've read that polyurethane shouldn't be exposed to light for long periods of time (there are four windows in the room).

What says ATOT? I can add pictures if it helps.

 

[DrPizza]

What do you mean by "it has soffit vents, so rafters will need to be put in"?

 

[dank69]

What do you mean by "it has soffit vents, so rafters will need to be put in"?

It means he doesn't know a whole lot about house construction.

 

[MoMeanMugs]

It means he doesn't know a whole lot about house construction.

I'm by no means a construction expert, but I believe understand the basics (or maybe not). Maybe I'm mixing the terminology, but I'm referring to the plastic pieces that would be stapled to the roof to allow the air to flow from the soffits up to the top of the roof.

 

[MoMeanMugs]

I guess what I meant were rafter vents like this:

http://www.lowes.com/pd_135588-7522...fters&pl=1&currentURL=?Ntt=rafters&facetInfo=

 

[Tiamat]

sounds like you are converting an attic space into a livable space. You are going to have to probably get a permit on that. Also, depending on how that space was constructed, I don't think it is going to be as easy as you are making it sound (slap insulation in, some walls, call it done). I don't know if the attic floor can take a load or if the engineers for the house designed in load bearing properties for the attic to be used as a living space.

I'd run this by some contractors to see what they think. You can then decide if you want to hire them or do it yourself. Not seeing the space or knowing how it was constructed makes it nearly impossible to suggest anything definitive...

I'm certainly no expert, not even close. Just a homeowner that asked a lot of questions during the construction of my custom home.

 

[sdifox]

get a quote on blown cellulose insulation.

 

[boomerang]

Let's see some pics. Is there no ceiling in this room? Open to the roof sheathing?

You're saying rafters, but I think you mean ceiling joists.

 

[dank69]

I guess what I meant were rafter vents like this:

http://www.lowes.com/pd_135588-7522...fters&pl=1&currentURL=?Ntt=rafters&facetInfo=

That makes much more sense.

 

[dank69]

get a quote on blown cellulose insulation.

That's not going to help if he wants to finish the room.

 

[sdifox]

That's not going to help if he wants to finish the room.

insulate first, then drywall.

 

[MoMeanMugs]

sounds like you are converting an attic space into a livable space. You are going to have to probably get a permit on that. Also, depending on how that space was constructed, I don't think it is going to be as easy as you are making it sound (slap insulation in, some walls, call it done). I don't know if the attic floor can take a load or if the engineers for the house designed in load bearing properties for the attic to be used as a living space.

I'd run this by some contractors to see what they think. You can then decide if you want to hire them or do it yourself. Not seeing the space or knowing how it was constructed makes it nearly impossible to suggest anything definitive...

I'm certainly no expert, not even close. Just a homeowner that asked a lot of questions during the construction of my custom home.

You're correct that I would need a permit. It was sold as an unfinished room and can support the weight.

I'll post up pictures later today.

 

[Red Squirrel]

I would get that insulated ASAP. Then vapor barrier then drywall. Don't plaster the seams till you figure out what you want to do, but at least it will keep the cold from the rest of the house. You will definitely have some ice dam issues if you leave it like that. And it could cause issues throughout the rest of the house. Not to mention the heating bill will be through the roof (no pun intended). It's weird they would do that, normally when you buy/build a house they actually finish/insulate all rooms.

 

[Scarpozzi]

I guess what I meant were rafter vents like this:

http://www.lowes.com/pd_135588-7522...fters&pl=1&currentURL=?Ntt=rafters&facetInfo=

You don't have to put those in....but they do prolong the life of your roof.

If your space up there is stick-framed, rather than pre-built truss construction, what are your actual rafters made of? Are they 2x6's, 2x8's, 2x10's, or 2x12's?

If you have 2x10s or 2x12s, you can actually squeeze R30-R38 in there using fiberglass. Otherwise, I'd buck up and spend the extra money on sprayfoam applications....but only if you plan on living there for 10+ years and plan on really using the room.

Another possibility is to go with 1" of sprayfoam to make an airtight seal between the roof sheathing and your upstairs space....and a thermal break...then do fiberglass in the space left over. Just make sure you use unfaced insulation as you don't need a vapor barrier there.

 

[MoMeanMugs]

 

[MoMeanMugs]

 

[Scarpozzi]

Nice space. I am finishing a similar space that I built over the summer. Looks like it was framed pretty well.

You'll need to construct a kneewall to hide the plumbing in the corner. This will help box in the space a little better and provide you with a little storage if you want. If you do this, you can actually insulate the kneewall instead of the rafters....then you'll only need to insulate the pitched area and flat ceiling...which will leave plenty of airspace to vent the upstairs.

Do you have a ridgevent or gable vent? I also noticed a small black pipe going up that looked like a gas line?

 

[MoMeanMugs]

I would get that insulated ASAP. Then vapor barrier then drywall. Don't plaster the seams till you figure out what you want to do, but at least it will keep the cold from the rest of the house. You will definitely have some ice dam issues if you leave it like that. And it could cause issues throughout the rest of the house. Not to mention the heating bill will be through the roof (no pun intended). It's weird they would do that, normally when you buy/build a house they actually finish/insulate all rooms.

Yeah, I definitely don't want to cause any issues with the rest of the house. It's interesting that when I was looking at houses, several were offered that way. Guess it's just a way to hid what the house really would cost finished.

You don't have to put those in....but they do prolong the life of your roof.

If your space up there is stick-framed, rather than pre-built truss construction, what are your actual rafters made of? Are they 2x6's, 2x8's, 2x10's, or 2x12's?

If you have 2x10s or 2x12s, you can actually squeeze R30-R38 in there using fiberglass. Otherwise, I'd buck up and spend the extra money on sprayfoam applications....but only if you plan on living there for 10+ years and plan on really using the room.

Another possibility is to go with 1" of sprayfoam to make an airtight seal between the roof sheathing and your upstairs space....and a thermal break...then do fiberglass in the space left over. Just make sure you use unfaced insulation as you don't need a vapor barrier there.

I definitely want the roof to last. That's why I want to get them in before winter comes. They're either 2x10 or 2x12, but I'll have to go back up and measure (see pics above for now). I was actually thinking about doing the combination you talked about. The main driver for the foam is the seal. The fiberglass can take care of the rest.

 

[Markbnj]

Yeah that's not really an attic. An attic is insulated from the lower floors, and there are pretty good reasons not to insulate the roof in that case. You basically want the air on both sides to be cold, and you don't want the insulation to trap moisture against the roof.

If there is no insulation between that room and the lower floors, then you definitely will want to get it finished before hard winter sets in. I assume you're from New England, and know what to expect?

Anyway, I would consult a contractor. I've never owned a finished room right under the roof, so I am not sure how they typically do it. Probably vapor barrier and insulation, then drywall.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Ohhhh so is this secluded from the rest of the house envelope? I thought this was just an actual room, not the attic space. In this case it's not as urgent to insulate it right away like I said. I'm going to assume the floor of that room is insulated and has proper vapor barrier already.

To go about insulating that attic, I'd definitely go with the baffles throughout each joist cavity, and spray foam. With ridge vent on top. Though, you could also go with a standard vent, since you would have a void above the horizontal spans which would need to be vented as well. Access door would be a good idea. I'd put some backing of sorts (plywood or even cardboard) and get that spray foamed too then drywall. The nice thing with spray foam is it also doubles as a vapor barrier and gets into every nook and cranny. With traditional vapor barrier it's easy to miss spots or have air leaks in awkward places where it's hard to tape it properly.

That's a pretty cozy looking space and would definitely make a cool movie room.

 

[MoMeanMugs]

Nice space. I am finishing a similar space that I built over the summer. Looks like it was framed pretty well.

You'll need to construct a kneewall to hide the plumbing in the corner. This will help box in the space a little better and provide you with a little storage if you want. If you do this, you can actually insulate the kneewall instead of the rafters....then you'll only need to insulate the pitched area and flat ceiling...which will leave plenty of airspace to vent the upstairs.

Do you have a ridgevent or gable vent? I also noticed a small black pipe going up that looked like a gas line?

Thanks! I was going to put the theater in the basement, but this will work better. BTW, thanks for the suggestions.

I realize I'll need a kneehigh. I'll need a door for the Radon mitigation system in the corner, so might as well use it for storage or what not as well.

Yes, there is a ridge vent that I forgot to take a picture of. The black pipe is for the sprinkler system. It's required as there isn't a hydrant (I'm on private water).

 

[Scarpozzi]

I'd do all fiberglass then. You'd only need those foam vent pieces where the kneewall transitions to thicker insulation in the ceiling.

If you do 2x6 construction on the kneewall and shoot for R30+ fiberglass in the ceiling, you shouldn't have to worry about the roof melting and refreezing constantly. Just seal up everything. Those foam pieces you staple up are designed for air channel cooling of your roof from the soffitts. They aren't designed to prevent much heat from reaching your roof.

 

[DrPizza]

Looks like a pretty fun project to do. Yes, you can put those rafter vents in & insulate - or at least, I would, to turn that into bedroom space for the kids or something. Because of those vent pipes, and because you'd probably want to anyway, I'd stick in a knee wall around where the roof rafters about about 2 feet above the floor.

Here are two options for your insulation:
http://www.extension.org/mediawiki/files/5/5a/Knee_wall.JPG

Note: the knee wall would be the ideal place to stick your outlets, rather than on the sloping ceiling (if you let that sloping ceiling go all the way to the floor & left those vent pipes visible). Tip: when you're building that knee wall, after you cut all the vertical members, but before you do any nailing things together, just stack them on top of each other & drill down through all of them at once for running your electrical wiring. Makes life a bit easier later on, rather than crouching down & squeezing below the roof to drill those holes one at a time.

Maybe not for the pros, but I found that angle between the kneewall & the ceiling to be a bitch to get a perfect looking seam when I finished the drywall. Though, there's now a flexible corner thing (some sort of plastic) made for just such a place. Makes it a hell of a lot easier - I wish I had known about that product when I refinished my attic - took me 5 or 6 coats of mud plus a shitload of sanding before I was completely satisfied; I can do a normal wall in 3 coats very easily.

If I had to do it, I think I'd insulate all the way down the roof (with the rafter vents in place down to the soffit vents), starting from the level part of the ceiling. Then, prebuild the knee wall first, planning for it to go up against the ceiling drywall. As I built it, I'd make sure it was ready to run the wires through. But, I wouldn't fasten it to the floor immediately - I'd slide the ceiling drywall between that and the roof rafters. That way, the knee wall holds up one end of those awkward to handle pieces of drywall for the ceiling. Plus, you can just cut them 2 or 3 inches long & not worry about it. Stick in the boxes and wiring for the outlets. Then, slap your drywall on the knee walls & other vertical walls (some would need insulation.) It's a project that if you get that drywall to look good, is incredibly satisfying to see the results of and know you did it yourself.



Also, sdifox - if he blows in cellulose before he puts the drywall up, what the hell is going to keep the cellulose where it needs to be??!


edit: with the insulation on the roof & not on the knee walls, you could run the ceiling drywall as close to the floor as you can get it, then with a couple of removable panels on the kneewall, can turn the space behind the kneewall into "secret" storage.

 

[sdifox]

Looks like a pretty fun project to do. Yes, you can put those rafter vents in & insulate - or at least, I would, to turn that into bedroom space for the kids or something. Because of those vent pipes, and because you'd probably want to anyway, I'd stick in a knee wall around where the roof rafters about about 2 feet above the floor.

Here are two options for your insulation:
http://www.extension.org/mediawiki/files/5/5a/Knee_wall.JPG

Note: the knee wall would be the ideal place to stick your outlets, rather than on the sloping ceiling (if you let that sloping ceiling go all the way to the floor & left those vent pipes visible). Tip: when you're building that knee wall, after you cut all the vertical members, but before you do any nailing things together, just stack them on top of each other & drill down through all of them at once for running your electrical wiring. Makes life a bit easier later on, rather than crouching down & squeezing below the roof to drill those holes one at a time.

Maybe not for the pros, but I found that angle between the kneewall & the ceiling to be a bitch to get a perfect looking seam when I finished the drywall. Though, there's now a flexible corner thing (some sort of plastic) made for just such a place. Makes it a hell of a lot easier - I wish I had known about that product when I refinished my attic - took me 5 or 6 coats of mud plus a shitload of sanding before I was completely satisfied; I can do a normal wall in 3 coats very easily.

If I had to do it, I think I'd insulate all the way down the roof (with the rafter vents in place down to the soffit vents). Then, prebuild the knee wall first, planning for it to go up against the ceiling drywall. As I built it, I'd make sure it was ready to run the wires through. But, I wouldn't fasten it to the floor immediately - I'd slide the ceiling drywall between that and the roof rafters. That way, the knee wall holds up one end of those awkward to handle pieces of drywall for the ceiling. Plus, you can just cut them 2 or 3 inches long & not worry about it. Stick in the boxes and wiring for the outlets. Then, slap your drywall on the knee walls & other vertical walls (some would need insulation.) It's a project that if you get that drywall to look good, is incredibly satisfying to see the results of and know you did it yourself.



Also, sdifox - if he blows in cellulose before he puts the drywall up, what the hell is going to keep the cellulose where it needs to be??!

wet spray is fine or go closed cell spray foam.

 

[Red Squirrel]

The knee walls also provide a really cool place for storage. You could actually still insulate all the way down on the angled wall, but then add the knee walls with little hatches to act as mini closets to put stuff along the whole section. One of my friends has an upstairs apartment that is like that, there is a little door and there's room to store stuff.