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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,636
3,439
126
Originally posted by: lupi
Originally posted by: SirStev0
And just to clear this up; No one is looking for hand outs. It is just sad that our government has no problem bailing out the big guys who already have the advantage and rewarding the scumbags who decide it is cheaper to have a 15 year old do the job in a factory with absolutely no safety measures halfway across the world.

Hope that helps.
And yet obama is campaigning to take more money from those that have it to give to those with less.

Smells pretty handout'ish to me.
That's just the cost of insurance that people with less don't get too hungry and kill the people with more.
 

SirStev0

Lifer
Nov 13, 2003
10,451
4
81
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: lupi
Originally posted by: SirStev0
And just to clear this up; No one is looking for hand outs. It is just sad that our government has no problem bailing out the big guys who already have the advantage and rewarding the scumbags who decide it is cheaper to have a 15 year old do the job in a factory with absolutely no safety measures halfway across the world.

Hope that helps.
And yet obama is campaigning to take more money from those that have it to give to those with less.

Smells pretty handout'ish to me.
That's just the cost of insurance that people with less don't get too hungry and kill the people with more.
I hate to disagree with you buddy, but this country is way past the point of possible revolution. We have been pussified, brainwashed, and scared into submission. There was once a time when it was possible. Hell, there was once a time when it was a founding principle. Now it is just old story of another time or the silly dream of conspiracy nuts.
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,542
260
126
Originally posted by: SirStev0
Originally posted by: lupi
Originally posted by: SirStev0
And just to clear this up; No one is looking for hand outs. It is just sad that our government has no problem bailing out the big guys who already have the advantage and rewarding the scumbags who decide it is cheaper to have a 15 year old do the job in a factory with absolutely no safety measures halfway across the world.

Hope that helps.
And yet obama is campaigning to take more money from those that have it to give to those with less.

Smells pretty handout'ish to me.
Almost. Stopping tax cuts because your somebody's old pledge buddy isn't unfairly taking from those who have. It is calling equalizing the playing field. I wonder how you old pal GW would have done if he didn't get handouts from his dad and cronies when he tanked business, after business, after business?

A handout would imply that he wants to take from one and give to the other. I believe one of his major platforms is to stop REWARDING THOSE WHO SEND JOBS OVERSEAS WITH TAX CUTS. If they are going to live and earn money in THIS country, they should have to PAY TAXES. If they want to continue to remove jobs from our economy they should no longer receive benefits from our economy.

Hope the caps helped your reading comprehension.
I don't have any overseas employees since I work for a company, but when my tax rate goes up so yours can go down or they can toss more mismanaged services at you, we're still eating handout duck.
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,542
260
126
Originally posted by: SirStev0
Originally posted by: lupi
Originally posted by: SirStev0
And just to clear this up; No one is looking for hand outs. It is just sad that our government has no problem bailing out the big guys who already have the advantage and rewarding the scumbags who decide it is cheaper to have a 15 year old do the job in a factory with absolutely no safety measures halfway across the world.

Hope that helps.
And yet obama is campaigning to take more money from those that have it to give to those with less.

Smells pretty handout'ish to me.
Almost. Stopping tax cuts because your somebody's old pledge buddy isn't unfairly taking from those who have. It is calling equalizing the playing field. I wonder how you old pal GW would have done if he didn't get handouts from his dad and cronies when he tanked business, after business, after business?

A handout would imply that he wants to take from one and give to the other. I believe one of his major platforms is to stop REWARDING THOSE WHO SEND JOBS OVERSEAS WITH TAX CUTS. If they are going to live and earn money in THIS country, they should have to PAY TAXES. If they want to continue to remove jobs from our economy they should no longer receive benefits from our economy.

Hope the caps helped your reading comprehension.
I don't have any overseas employees since I work for a company, but when my tax rate goes up so yours can go down or they can toss more mismanaged services at you, we're still eating handout duck.
 

SirStev0

Lifer
Nov 13, 2003
10,451
4
81
Originally posted by: lupi
Originally posted by: SirStev0
Originally posted by: lupi
Originally posted by: SirStev0
And just to clear this up; No one is looking for hand outs. It is just sad that our government has no problem bailing out the big guys who already have the advantage and rewarding the scumbags who decide it is cheaper to have a 15 year old do the job in a factory with absolutely no safety measures halfway across the world.

Hope that helps.
And yet obama is campaigning to take more money from those that have it to give to those with less.

Smells pretty handout'ish to me.
Almost. Stopping tax cuts because your somebody's old pledge buddy isn't unfairly taking from those who have. It is calling equalizing the playing field. I wonder how you old pal GW would have done if he didn't get handouts from his dad and cronies when he tanked business, after business, after business?

A handout would imply that he wants to take from one and give to the other. I believe one of his major platforms is to stop REWARDING THOSE WHO SEND JOBS OVERSEAS WITH TAX CUTS. If they are going to live and earn money in THIS country, they should have to PAY TAXES. If they want to continue to remove jobs from our economy they should no longer receive benefits from our economy.

Hope the caps helped your reading comprehension.
I don't have any overseas employees since I work for a company, but when my tax rate goes up so yours can go down or they can toss more mismanaged services at you, we're still eating handout duck.
So you are all happy that you get to keep a couple extra bucks a year, but what about the economy and the other markets. Wonder how the housing market would be doing if people weren't constantly losing there jobs?
I hear there is this thing called trickle down economics. Where ever the top invest their money, the stimulation and benefits are felt. I wonder how the American Peon gets trickled on, if the investment is overseas. The whole system is interconnected. keep kicking the lower half and the bottom will eventually fall out. It is just like Jenga.

And don't worry buddy. I am a largely in-debt college student working on an advanced degree. By the time I am paying the system you will be on the hand -out side wondering where your social security check is...
 

cubeless

Diamond Member
Sep 17, 2001
4,308
1
81
Originally posted by: SirStev0
And just to clear this up; No one is looking for hand outs. It is just sad that our government has no problem bailing out the big guys who already have the advantage and rewarding the scumbags who decide it is cheaper to have a 15 year old do the job in a factory with absolutely no safety measures halfway across the world.

Hope that helps.
seems a bit odd...

it can't be just us bastard republicans buying foreign made stuff... if every dem refused to buy anything not made in the usofa then the scumbags (who ain't all republicans, either) would make stuff here... wake up and smell the capitalism... u wouldn't need to worry about trade agreements either, since we could just quit trading, right?

and, as i recall, it ain't us scumbag republicans who killed your coal mines... hell, we'd love to still be giving your relatives black lung if you libs would just let us keep burning more coal... if i were u i'd have a rant at your mirror ocasionally...

not to be elitist or condescending, but golly it's swell to be young and righteously indignant... and not old enough to be bitter yet...
 

Fern

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 30, 2003
26,916
172
106
Originally posted by: SirStev0
Damn this is not going the way I hoped. I was hoping that we could some how get into addressing the fact that small town America is pissed that we are repeatedly getting boned. Unfortunately we grasp for whatever we can.

Not an argument over whether or not it is elitism or what he really meant when he said it.
Sorry to hear about the plight of your small town. My small town is booming.

Some of the factories have disappeared, yet slowly other have moved in.

I live in the mountains in Western NC, many think it a beautiful area, and our population is swelling.

The good 'ole boys who used to work in factories, are often now employed in various contruction jobs etc. The younger ones work in upscale restaurants, or start a business. One guy I know does landscaping and made $80K last year (his first year in business).

So it's much different here.

Are small towns getting "boned" or just ignored?

Is it the federal government role to help individual small towns?

I'm leaning towards it being a state government issue. I also think that your county should be doing something about it.

Can they contact a university in the state to come have a look and make recommendations? Is there federal interstate access nearby? Are there any local efforts to retrain workers for a new position? Are there any local/county organizations formed to recruit employers to the area? Has the county instaled high speed/bandwith connectivity that is attractive to businesses?

Are any efforts being made?

When I first came to this small town it was basically an accident to find it, I'm not exaggerating or kidding. But the efforts I mention above, and others, were implemented and have been effective.

15 or 20 years ago, our small downtown was almost dead. The big stores had all moved out. Many storefronts downtown were closed and shuttered. Many were in bad disrepair. The only federal program I think beneficial to small towns was embraced by our town - I forget the name but it advises small towns on how to resurrect the old decaying downtowns. We are now a "Historic Downtown". We had to finance much of it ourselves through property tax increases; we planted trees, built flower boxes and hung hanging flower baskets from poles. We offered low-interest loans to owners of buildings downtown to renovate their facades. We created sign ordinaces etc. It's now beautiful, small business have moved (and out too) and property values are quite high compared to what they once were.

No one in your community needs to be a genious, so many "self help" programs have been designed and implemented/tried it's amazing. If not already, they should be looking at these and trying to copy the most suitable for your area.

Fern
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,826
82
91
Originally posted by: Farang
For maybe the third or fourth time.. nobody cares about this but the pundits. New poll today gives Obama his biggest lead of the election--51% to 40%. http://www.gallup.com/poll/106...ama-51-Clinton-40.aspx
Obama has the democratic nomination locked up. his challenge is convincing these small town people to open their hearts to the hope he's offering and realize that their bitterness towards people that aren't like them is just a reflection of their fear of change.
 

RY62

Senior member
Mar 13, 2005
771
32
91
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: SirStev0
Damn this is not going the way I hoped. I was hoping that we could some how get into addressing the fact that small town America is pissed that we are repeatedly getting boned. Unfortunately we grasp for whatever we can.

Not an argument over whether or not it is elitism or what he really meant when he said it.
Sorry to hear about the plight of your small town. My small town is booming.

Some of the factories have disappeared, yet slowly other have moved in.

I live in the mountains in Western NC, many think it a beautiful area, and our population is swelling.

The good 'ole boys who used to work in factories, are often now employed in various contruction jobs etc. The younger ones work in upscale restaurants, or start a business. One guy I know does landscaping and made $80K last year (his first year in business).

So it's much different here.

Are small towns getting "boned" or just ignored?

Is it the federal government role to help individual small towns?

I'm leaning towards it being a state government issue. I also think that your county should be doing something about it.

Can they contact a university in the state to come have a look and make recommendations? Is there federal interstate access nearby? Are there any local efforts to retrain workers for a new position? Are there any local/county organizations formed to recruit employers to the area? Has the county instaled high speed/bandwith connectivity that is attractive to businesses?

Are any efforts being made?

When I first came to this small town it was basically an accident to find it, I'm not exaggerating or kidding. But the efforts I mention above, and others, were implemented and have been effective.

15 or 20 years ago, our small downtown was almost dead. The big stores had all moved out. Many storefronts downtown were closed and shuttered. Many were in bad disrepair. The only federal program I think beneficial to small towns was embraced by our town - I forget the name but it advises small towns on how to resurrect the old decaying downtowns. We are now a "Historic Downtown". We had to finance much of it ourselves through property tax increases; we planted trees, built flower boxes and hung hanging flower baskets from poles. We offered low-interest loans to owners of buildings downtown to renovate their facades. We created sign ordinaces etc. It's now beautiful, small business have moved (and out too) and property values are quite high compared to what they once were.

No one in your community needs to be a genious, so many "self help" programs have been designed and implemented/tried it's amazing. If not already, they should be looking at these and trying to copy the most suitable for your area.

Fern
This is exactly the kind of action it takes to solve the problem but this requires effort and bitterness is easier.
For this to be effective, it'll require determined dedication and effort from the individuals. It's called personal responsibility. You can't just wait around for someone to make your life better. You have to take action. It starts with the individual who organizes the town to work with the county, then the state and finally the feds.

Damn...I think I might've just crossed the line and become a conservative.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,636
3,439
126
Originally posted by: SirStev0
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: lupi
Originally posted by: SirStev0
And just to clear this up; No one is looking for hand outs. It is just sad that our government has no problem bailing out the big guys who already have the advantage and rewarding the scumbags who decide it is cheaper to have a 15 year old do the job in a factory with absolutely no safety measures halfway across the world.

Hope that helps.
And yet obama is campaigning to take more money from those that have it to give to those with less.

Smells pretty handout'ish to me.
That's just the cost of insurance that people with less don't get too hungry and kill the people with more.
I hate to disagree with you buddy, but this country is way past the point of possible revolution. We have been pussified, brainwashed, and scared into submission. There was once a time when it was possible. Hell, there was once a time when it was a founding principle. Now it is just old story of another time or the silly dream of conspiracy nuts.
I disagree. I just think we haven't yet met people who feel entitled and have noting to eat. It's not going to be pretty if that time comes.

The question is:

Will the patient die of snake bite before the serum arrives from Iraq? A saying
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
47,773
8,020
126
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
The question was asked - what do "they" want. Well, from my experience living in small town America(only recently moved to a metro type area). They just want to be left the F@#$ alone. In my hometown that seems to be the sentiment and the same for the town I graduated from(both around 2K people). The second has an ILLEGAL immigration problem and also now a drug problem but the people there would rather the Feds do their job at the border instead of shutting down the town every once in a while with their DEA or ICE vehicles. Doesn't happen often but they seem to think the problem should be taken care of earlier so they wouldn't have the Feds on their doorstep.
Your "experience" is load of crap and empty rhetoric. Generally speaking, small-townspeople have been very abusive to their urban neighbors the past few decades. You try to force us to abide by your social policies (OH NOES TEH GHEYS TEH DRUGS TEH ABORTION), to fight your expensive wars, and you make us urban folks bear the brunt of the financial burden for all that. Then you come back with we "just want to be left the F@#$ alone"? Yeah, I wish.
 

beyoku

Golden Member
Aug 20, 2003
1,570
1
71
Originally posted by: SirStev0
Originally posted by: RY62
Originally posted by: SirStev0
Damn this is not going the way I hoped. I was hoping that we could some how get into addressing the fact that small town America is pissed that we are repeatedly getting boned. Unfortunately we grasp for whatever we can.

Not an argument over whether or not it is elitism or what he really meant when he said it.
How is it that your small town is "repeatedly getting boned"?

My area is bitter. The People are bitter. The jobs are gone. They have been gone for since the 1920's when mining crashed.
I'm trying to understand wtf is wrong with the people in your town but i just can't grasp it. You say the jobs left in the 1920's. That's like 80 freaking years ago. What the hell have the people been doing for 80 years? If they've been waiting for a knight in shining armor to come and rescue them, I can see why they'd be bitter. Newsflash...the knight ain't coming. Come on people...80 years...WAKE UP! Anyone with any sense should be leaving that town.
Even when there were jobs they were getting boned. But at least with those jobs you could put in a hard days work and come home with something to support their family. We have had industries come in for a while and hang around, giving some a job for a decade or two and then fading away.
People have been leaving. A majority of the towns are populated by older people trying to live off of social security. That is what is left. In the 1850's the town I had mentioned early with the "mexican invasion" had a larger population than New York City at the same time. People are leaving but still people stay.

I've been lucky. I am getting out. But for most of the blue collar works where should they go? To Allentown? The industry is gone. To Pittsburgh? The Steel Industry is gone. The midwest? to work in Auto Manufacturing? Those are gone. Maybe find a job in construction? Yeah with the housing crisis.
:thumbsup:
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
The question was asked - what do "they" want. Well, from my experience living in small town America(only recently moved to a metro type area). They just want to be left the F@#$ alone. In my hometown that seems to be the sentiment and the same for the town I graduated from(both around 2K people). The second has an ILLEGAL immigration problem and also now a drug problem but the people there would rather the Feds do their job at the border instead of shutting down the town every once in a while with their DEA or ICE vehicles. Doesn't happen often but they seem to think the problem should be taken care of earlier so they wouldn't have the Feds on their doorstep.
Your "experience" is load of crap and empty rhetoric. Generally speaking, small-townspeople have been very abusive to their urban neighbors the past few decades. You try to force us to abide by your social policies (OH NOES TEH GHEYS TEH DRUGS TEH ABORTION), to fight your expensive wars, and you make us urban folks bear the brunt of the financial burden for all that. Then you come back with we "just want to be left the F@#$ alone"? Yeah, I wish.
:roll: what an ignorant load of Bullshit. Small towns abusive? Puhfugginleeze. From where I've been(both small towns) they don't like the social BS pushed on them by the "urban" people. So at BEST case for your stance is that there is an equal push-pull going on. But now being "urban" I don't see where the rural are pushing their social policies on urban america.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
47,773
8,020
126
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
The question was asked - what do "they" want. Well, from my experience living in small town America(only recently moved to a metro type area). They just want to be left the F@#$ alone. In my hometown that seems to be the sentiment and the same for the town I graduated from(both around 2K people). The second has an ILLEGAL immigration problem and also now a drug problem but the people there would rather the Feds do their job at the border instead of shutting down the town every once in a while with their DEA or ICE vehicles. Doesn't happen often but they seem to think the problem should be taken care of earlier so they wouldn't have the Feds on their doorstep.
Your "experience" is load of crap and empty rhetoric. Generally speaking, small-townspeople have been very abusive to their urban neighbors the past few decades. You try to force us to abide by your social policies (OH NOES TEH GHEYS TEH DRUGS TEH ABORTION), to fight your expensive wars, and you make us urban folks bear the brunt of the financial burden for all that. Then you come back with we "just want to be left the F@#$ alone"? Yeah, I wish.
:roll: what an ignorant load of Bullshit. Small towns abusive? Puhfugginleeze. From where I've been(both small towns) they don't like the social BS pushed on them by the "urban" people. So at BEST case for your stance is that there is an equal push-pull going on. But now being "urban" I don't see where the rural are pushing their social policies on urban america.
Based on your posts, I'd say the only things you see are what you're told to see. Which, on this topic, is clearly to ignore all the data on voter demographics for the past several election cycles.

Is this going to be an ongoing trend from now until November, CAD? Where you constantly lash out against evil <Homer Simpson>lib-er-als</Homer Simpson> while spouting an ideological rhetoric that your own party scarcely even bothers to pay lip service to anymore? I mean, if you think I'm being a little rude to you, it's because a dog would turn on its master for betraying it sooner than you.
Wake up, swallow your pride, and help us clean up the mess. You can always say that what Bush did wasn't conservativism, that he betrayed the ideals of the Republican party, and yaknow what? you'd be right in that.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,020
3,081
126
Just read an article posted on another forum how Obama's comment was a "slip" that reveals him to be a "Communist".

So there you have it folks, he's a Commie too!! :p:D
 

Bitek

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2001
9,115
3,073
136
I think CAD's assertion that all small towners just think like a monoblock is equally as elitist and condescending. Its been my experience that small towners have just a diversity of thought as urbanites and suburbanites. Some will be offended by Obama, some will take heart at his [clumsy] attempt at empathy, some will care less, and in the end this too shall pass. The conservative elitists will try to claim they are the voice of the small towners, when they have ignored and pandered to them just as much (if not more) than the Dems have.

So far the Rs have promised them lots in elections, and then gave nothing in office. W is a prime example of this w/ all the wedge issue politics of recent (then nothing delivered other than a half-hearted Gay marriage amendment and the Terri Shivo fiasco.) With the tough economic times, I would not be so confident that the rural voters will be so quick to toss their vote to the party that has so thoroughly used and abused them as of late.
 

Bitek

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2001
9,115
3,073
136
Originally posted by: beyoku
Originally posted by: SirStev0
Originally posted by: RY62
Originally posted by: SirStev0
Damn this is not going the way I hoped. I was hoping that we could some how get into addressing the fact that small town America is pissed that we are repeatedly getting boned. Unfortunately we grasp for whatever we can.

Not an argument over whether or not it is elitism or what he really meant when he said it.
How is it that your small town is "repeatedly getting boned"?

My area is bitter. The People are bitter. The jobs are gone. They have been gone for since the 1920's when mining crashed.
I'm trying to understand wtf is wrong with the people in your town but i just can't grasp it. You say the jobs left in the 1920's. That's like 80 freaking years ago. What the hell have the people been doing for 80 years? If they've been waiting for a knight in shining armor to come and rescue them, I can see why they'd be bitter. Newsflash...the knight ain't coming. Come on people...80 years...WAKE UP! Anyone with any sense should be leaving that town.
Even when there were jobs they were getting boned. But at least with those jobs you could put in a hard days work and come home with something to support their family. We have had industries come in for a while and hang around, giving some a job for a decade or two and then fading away.
People have been leaving. A majority of the towns are populated by older people trying to live off of social security. That is what is left. In the 1850's the town I had mentioned early with the "mexican invasion" had a larger population than New York City at the same time. People are leaving but still people stay.

I've been lucky. I am getting out. But for most of the blue collar works where should they go? To Allentown? The industry is gone. To Pittsburgh? The Steel Industry is gone. The midwest? to work in Auto Manufacturing? Those are gone. Maybe find a job in construction? Yeah with the housing crisis.
:thumbsup:

Yeah, it seems the best thing that's happened to Allentown recently is that its becoming a commuter community to those that work in Jersey, but don't/can't afford the high taxes and high real estate. Outside the Jersey border areas in the smaller towns it seems jackshit is going on employment-wise. If there is no manufacturing base there is nothing to trade and no way to bring money into these communities, and thus support 2nd-ary services like restaurants, shops, and other small businesses. W/o a broad population and education base, you can't support high-tech/high wage industries. We can't have an economy just based on debt services which produces few goods.

I don't think going to a highly protectionist mode is a good remedy, and so far Obama is not advocating this. However, we do need to be smarter w/ our trade deals and not write in handicaps to American workers so they have no fair chance to complete w/ Chinese workers etc. Given the level of pollution, environmental degradation and social inequity in China, their current economic strategy is not sustainable. They have to shut down all the factories in Beijing for three mos just not to choke the Olympic athletes for christ sake. o_0 Sounds like some of the practices in the US (like Jersey esp) in the 60s-70s which led to all EPA, OSHA and all the laws we enjoy now. China will have to do this as well eventually. They are working on borrowed time to lure away all our manu base before they have to bring up stds. It will be very difficult to bring the industries back by then.

Given a more fair playing field, I have little doubt that American manufacturing can compete well w/ shitty Chinese products. We need to be smart and not trade away our manu base for very short term gains which benefits very few. Hillary's Walmart has done very well in all this tho ;)
 

SirStev0

Lifer
Nov 13, 2003
10,451
4
81
Originally posted by: RY62
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: SirStev0
Damn this is not going the way I hoped. I was hoping that we could some how get into addressing the fact that small town America is pissed that we are repeatedly getting boned. Unfortunately we grasp for whatever we can.

Not an argument over whether or not it is elitism or what he really meant when he said it.
Sorry to hear about the plight of your small town. My small town is booming.

Some of the factories have disappeared, yet slowly other have moved in.

I live in the mountains in Western NC, many think it a beautiful area, and our population is swelling.

The good 'ole boys who used to work in factories, are often now employed in various contruction jobs etc. The younger ones work in upscale restaurants, or start a business. One guy I know does landscaping and made $80K last year (his first year in business).

So it's much different here.

Are small towns getting "boned" or just ignored?

Is it the federal government role to help individual small towns?

I'm leaning towards it being a state government issue. I also think that your county should be doing something about it.

Can they contact a university in the state to come have a look and make recommendations? Is there federal interstate access nearby? Are there any local efforts to retrain workers for a new position? Are there any local/county organizations formed to recruit employers to the area? Has the county instaled high speed/bandwith connectivity that is attractive to businesses?

Are any efforts being made?

When I first came to this small town it was basically an accident to find it, I'm not exaggerating or kidding. But the efforts I mention above, and others, were implemented and have been effective.

15 or 20 years ago, our small downtown was almost dead. The big stores had all moved out. Many storefronts downtown were closed and shuttered. Many were in bad disrepair. The only federal program I think beneficial to small towns was embraced by our town - I forget the name but it advises small towns on how to resurrect the old decaying downtowns. We are now a "Historic Downtown". We had to finance much of it ourselves through property tax increases; we planted trees, built flower boxes and hung hanging flower baskets from poles. We offered low-interest loans to owners of buildings downtown to renovate their facades. We created sign ordinaces etc. It's now beautiful, small business have moved (and out too) and property values are quite high compared to what they once were.

No one in your community needs to be a genious, so many "self help" programs have been designed and implemented/tried it's amazing. If not already, they should be looking at these and trying to copy the most suitable for your area.

Fern
This is exactly the kind of action it takes to solve the problem but this requires effort and bitterness is easier.
For this to be effective, it'll require determined dedication and effort from the individuals. It's called personal responsibility. You can't just wait around for someone to make your life better. You have to take action. It starts with the individual who organizes the town to work with the county, then the state and finally the feds.

Damn...I think I might've just crossed the line and become a conservative.
I agree with both of you. and it may very well be the ticket to fixing the problem. What happened was the conversation got side tracked on an entitlement vs handouts vs taxes thing. Exactly like it would if it was brought up in a debate.

My original point is that small town people especially those living in the decaying industrial areas of Pennsylvania and, for instance, Michigan (they are so desperate they cling to Michael Moore)(eww), are bitter at the government for what they see as not protecting them. Your feel powerless when something completely out of your control like this happens. There is a bitterness. And they will blame whoever they want to blame.

Some blame Regeanomics, some say if Regeanomics were followed to a "T" it would have never happened. Some blame greed or laziness, Some blame taxes, or the unions, or the lack of unions, or the decay and corruption of unions, or Santa Clause, or homosexuals, or immigrants.

I feel that despite my objection the thread has gotten off on a tangent. Which is also because of my response to some comments that seemed to be in need of response.

I guess I'll make one last ditch effort. My original point is that we shouldn't chastize the guy for his comments. It is what it is. There are a lot of people who are upset and quite a few that might have given up. There are a lot of disenfranchising people who will never vote again or who have never planned to vote. Bitterness doesn't really cover it.
 

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