California sets limits on energy-gulping TVs

[fskimospy]

I wonder how many of the people whining about this law were ones that supported the cafe standards. If I were a vindictive individual I would go back and check, just to embarass some of the more vehement protestors. Of course, I can understand the viewpoint of only complaining when something actually affects you, but folks let this boat sail a long time ago when they started letting the government put limits on things like fuel economy. It's just a question of when they start putting quotas on electricity usage - because eventually they will.

CAFE standards have been around for almost 40 years with no quota on gasoline consumption in sight. Your conclusion is not supported by the facts.

 

[CPA]

With the switch to LED for the light source, displays should drop power use by about 30% and the picture will actually look better because with LED light you can dim parts of the picture while having other areas bright.

With the current backlight you either get all bright or all dim which makes for poor blacks.

What? But Jules says that industry is slow to change and we need legislation. I am shocked by this news, just shocked!

 

[CPA]

California (PG&E) already charges people significantly more for using more electricity. I don't know why this is really necessary. It'll make TVs nationwide cost more.

But then maybe that's a good thing. People don't need to watch TV all the time or buy the newest crap.

So, let's just mandate that no TV should cost less than $10,000.

BTW, thank you for telling me what I don't need to do or buy....mommy.

 

[IGBT]

the eco-KOOKS don't want you to use electricity. next they will demonize your refrigerator.

 

[piasabird]

So do the Energy Nazi's plan on visiting everyone's house to enforce this law or do they try to enforce it at the retail outlets?

This sounds like a law that is destined to fail. I could think of plenty of other laws that would probably save more energy like replacing old air conditioners and furnaces with energy efficient ones, and offering some kind of incentive to do that. This may exist already for Green initiative upgrades to an existing house.

So they are attacking the TV, but you can own a 5,000 square foot or larger house and run your air conditioner non-stop at full tilt. Why not just limit the size of houses by square footage per number of occupants, and charge people with large houses or mansions, a higher rate for electricity to enforce it? I think we build houses too large in the USA.

What about people that own 3 or more computers and run them non-stop all day? Computer monitors can use up a lot of electricity; Especially the really big tube type.

Refrigerators and Freezers are also big culprits that burn a lot more electricity. If you built them with thicker walls and doors with more insulation you could save quite a bit more than turning off your TV. A lot of people with large houses have multiple huge Refrigerators and Freezers.

Other culprits are electric Stoves and Hot water heaters and electric dryers.

Note if you replaced your 30 inch Tube TV with a 56" Plasma or Flatscreen, then maybe you did not save any electricity. Just because you buy a LCD flatscreen, it does not mean any savings if it is 3 times larger than what you did have!

 

[exdeath]

So they are attacking the TV, but you can own a 5,000 square foot or larger house and run your air conditioner non-stop at full tilt. Why not just limit the size of houses by square footage per number of occupants, and charge people with large houses or mansions, a higher rate for electricity to enforce it? I think we build houses too large in the USA.

What about people that own 3 or more computers and run them non-stop all day? Computer monitors can use up a lot of electricity; Especially the really big tube type.

Refrigerators and Freezers are also big culprits that burn a lot more electricity. If you built them with thicker walls and doors with more insulation you could save quite a bit more than turning off your TV. A lot of people with large houses have multiple huge Refrigerators and Freezers.

Whoa slow down there before you startle someone. One small step at a time man. You gotta boil the frog slowly or it will jump out of the pot.

The Soviet Union wasn't built over night.

 

[heyheybooboo]

So do the Energy Nazi's plan on visiting everyone's house to enforce this law or do they try to enforce it at the retail outlets?
~~snip~~

What they plan to do is something called TOU (Time-Of-Use) Metering.

The issue is not the net demand of electricity --- it's the peak demand.

You will be free to suck down all the electricity you wish, though during peak demand you will be charged a significantly higher rate.

Those among us who engage in more practical electric load management will be paying significantly less.


And I don't think you guys get the point of the legislation --- it protects the manufacturers (and consumers) who make a significant investment in new tech from being undercut by some enterprising unscrupulous capitalist (who purchases the old manufacturing equipment on the cheap and proceeds to dump tens of thousands of old-tech energy-sucking flat screens on the US market).
-
-
-

 

[feralkid]

Not without a tuner.

Oops, I missed that part.

 

[fskimospy]

ie: other people don't do what we want them to do and don't share our unquantifiable OPINION so we will be totalitarian pricks and force them to at gun point, esp. if we can gain majority agreement via mass media bias and selective censorship.

Why hello there Mr. Stalin!

Tell me how being threatened by the church for not proclaiming faith in god in the 1500s is any different from being threatened by government force for not believing in global warming or some other boogieman?

Anyhow keep your shit to Kalifornia unless you want to add fuel to the states rights fire that has kindled across the nation.

This post has a lot of crazy wrapped up in it.

It's not an unquantifiable opinion.

Media bias is a myth.

The idea of some sort of selective censorship conspiracy is a paranoid delusion.

TV specification regulation is not Stalinist. (!?!?!)

Your attempt to equate global warming legislation with the Spanish Inquisition is laughably dumb.

If you think the average American gives a shit about states rights you are badly deluded.

 

[fskimospy]

Whoa slow down there before you startle someone. One small step at a time man. You gotta boil the frog slowly or it will jump out of the pot.

The Soviet Union wasn't built over night.

What makes your post so fabulously illustrative is that you don't seem to realize that the boiling frog story is a myth.

http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/frogboil.asp

 

[marincounty]

It is stupid for the California Energy Commission getting involved with this. The television industry is in great flux right now, with lots of competition and competing technologies. Now is not the time to pick a winner in the technology battle. Let the market work, as it has worked wonderfully the last few years. Prices for big tvs are falling rapidly and quality is rising. Consumers are the winners here.

Notice the loophole for over 58" tvs, a bone they threw to the rich and the installation industry. If they are really concerned with TV power consumption, a better way of achieving savings would be to give a rebate to people buying new tvs to replace their old crt tvs.

Those of you pushing nuclear power, forget it. We don't want it, you've got nowhere to store the waste (so it can't be built under Calif. law). As someone pointed out, there is no shortage of power in California. The only blackouts we have had in my 48 years here was when Enron was gaming the system. And anyway any nuclear plants would take years to come online.

 

[bfdd]

It is stupid for the California Energy Commission getting involved with this. The television industry is in great flux right now, with lots of competition and competing technologies. Now is not the time to pick a winner in the technology battle. Let the market work, as it has worked wonderfully the last few years. Prices for big tvs are falling rapidly and quality is rising. Consumers are the winners here.

Notice the loophole for over 58" tvs, a bone they threw to the rich and the installation industry. If they are really concerned with TV power consumption, a better way of achieving savings would be to give a rebate to people buying new tvs to replace their old crt tvs.

Those of you pushing nuclear power, forget it. We don't want it, you've got nowhere to store the waste (so it can't be built under Calif. law). As someone pointed out, there is no shortage of power in California. The only blackouts we have had in my 48 years here was when Enron was gaming the system. And anyway any nuclear plants would take years to come online.

They do have a place to store the waste. Also, they smashed a huge solar field being built because it might hurt some animals. So how exactly are we going to correct our energy problem here in California? Can't build nuke plants because it's not 100% green, can't build coal/gas electric plants because it might raise our CO2 emissions, and we can't build clean energy out int he middle of no where because animals might be hurt.

 

[marincounty]

They do have a place to store the waste. Also, they smashed a huge solar field being built because it might hurt some animals. So how exactly are we going to correct our energy problem here in California? Can't build nuke plants because it's not 100% green, can't build coal/gas electric plants because it might raise our CO2 emissions, and we can't build clean energy out int he middle of no where because animals might be hurt.

What energy problem? We have sufficient supply unless the rest of Mexico moves here.
Build all of the coal or nuclear plants you want-in your state.

 

[bfdd]

What energy problem? We have sufficient supply unless the rest of Mexico moves here.
Build all of the coal or nuclear plants you want-in your state.

Ok then we can start building here in California. I am from California, I've worked in the power plants and refineries we have here in Southern California and some in Northern California. We need more energy, telling people who would gladly pay their electric bill that they can't run their AC unit 24/7 because we're on the brink of an energy crisis is not what I'd say is "ok." A lot of the plants we have here are worn down and beat up and we just slap bandages on them to keep them going because it is so fucking hard to get the ok to do any sort of "new construction."

 

[Pulsar]

CAFE standards have been around for almost 40 years with no quota on gasoline consumption in sight. Your conclusion is not supported by the facts.

Huh?

I specifically said, the only question is WHEN.

Right now, the government isn't worried about the gasoline running out. Were you around in the 70's? When there WERE quotas on per-visit fill-ups, in order to slow the flow of gasoline to consumers?

The facts support my conclusion exactly. You simply don't have the historical perspective to see it.

In this situation, the government of Cali is concerned about their total lack of infrastructure investment. As a result, they are inforcing lowered electrical consumption. If it becomes critical, you can be guaranteed they will ration it, just as they did with gasoline in the 70's.

 

[marincounty]

Ok then we can start building here in California. I am from California, I've worked in the power plants and refineries we have here in Southern California and some in Northern California. We need more energy, telling people who would gladly pay their electric bill that they can't run their AC unit 24/7 because we're on the brink of an energy crisis is not what I'd say is "ok." A lot of the plants we have here are worn down and beat up and we just slap bandages on them to keep them going because it is so fucking hard to get the ok to do any sort of "new construction."

The facts disagree with your assertions.
http://www.energy.ca.gov/sitingcases/index.html

From 1978 to 1998 before California's electricity generation industry was restructured, the Energy Commission analyzed and approved 47 projects totaling 5,589 megawatts (MW). More recently, in the early 1990s the Energy Commission certified 14 power plants. Of the 14 plants, 10 were approved and eight were constructed totaling 995 MW. No power plant applications were filed with the Energy Commission between August 1994 and May 1997 because there was so much uncertainty during the pending restructuring of the electricity industry.

Electricity deregulation began on March 31, 1998. From 1998 through January 2004, 44 electric generation projects, totaling 18,399 MW, have been reviewed and licensed by the Energy Commission. Twenty-four of these licensed facilities have been built and are on-line producing 8,311 MW. Workload has been at historic levels these past several years with the peak number of applications for new projects twice that of the peak in the 1980s. Over the past several years, the Commission tracked upwards of 150 potential projects 50 MW and larger; however, most of these projects were not filed with the Energy Commission because of unfavorable market conditions.

The following table shows that the Commission has processed more proposed projects in the past six years (58 projects) as were reviewed over the previous 20 years (47 projects). One can also see that, on average, the size of the more recent projects are about three times larger than the projects prior to restructuring.

 

[bfdd]

Ok Marincounty, I've never worked in these plants on these projects. I've never had to work on turbines older than most people on this board ever. I've never done that. I've never actually seen how worn down and beat up our equipment is. My first hand experiences with our refineries and power plants is just a figment of my imagination. They sure paid me damn well to imagine things though.

 

[marincounty]

Ok Marincounty, I've never worked in these plants on these projects. I've never had to work on turbines older than most people on this board ever. I've never done that. I've never actually seen how worn down and beat up our equipment is. My first hand experiences with our refineries and power plants is just a figment of my imagination. They sure paid me damn well to imagine things though.

They overpaid.

 

[bfdd]

They overpaid.

They sure as hell did to the contractor I worked for, to bad I never saw what I deserved of it. Hence the reason I'm talking in past tense about doing this kind of work.

 

[sandorski]

This thread is very telling about what we find important in America. People can't decide. On one hand they say the legislation won't do anything, and then on the other hand they say that we are being subject to the tyranny of the 'libruls'. (this is of course while ignoring people showing them how it won't alter their purchases much at all). Nice to see we make our stand on liberty and justice around our TV sets.

First they came for the plasma TV's and I said nothing...

Ya, that's happened a handful of times now. My mind is boggled at the schizoid mindset.

 

[exdeath]

What makes your post so fabulously illustrative is that you don't seem to realize that the boiling frog story is a myth.

http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/frogboil.asp

What makes your post fabulously illustrative is that you're obviously so much more worried about discrediting me and can't even refute the actual argument. You don't seem to realize that false or not, the boiling frog myth is still a valid well understood analogy.

In fact the link I posted describing what the boiling frog symbolizes, for the benefit of those might not have heard of it before, explicitly states that it is false in the literal sense of boiling an actual live frog, and then goes on in detail to describe the philosophical concept of change over time that "boiling the frog" has come to represent.

Try again.

 

[kalrith]

I've got a super-power-hungry plasma, and it costs me $1.75/month to have it on for 4 hours every day. I certainly wish that were 10% of my electric bill! Even if it were on 24/7, it would cost $10.50/month.

They also say lower electric bills will more than offset any price hikes.

So, if the newer models use 10% of the electricity of my plasma (which would be 22W and less than my 20" LCD computer monitor uses), I'd save a whopping $18.90 per year (and there's no way it'll save that much electricity). I'm sure that'll compensate for the price hike that's going to come from this. More than likely prices will go up a little while the quality goes south.

to those who got a Kuro before they disappeared. It might be some time before the industry can match that quality with the new tree-hugging legislation.

 

[Deeko]

This is stupid, California is an awful place.

 

[fskimospy]

Huh?

I specifically said, the only question is WHEN.

Right now, the government isn't worried about the gasoline running out. Were you around in the 70's? When there WERE quotas on per-visit fill-ups, in order to slow the flow of gasoline to consumers?

The facts support my conclusion exactly. You simply don't have the historical perspective to see it.

In this situation, the government of Cali is concerned about their total lack of infrastructure investment. As a result, they are inforcing lowered electrical consumption. If it becomes critical, you can be guaranteed they will ration it, just as they did with gasoline in the 70's.

There were quotas because of an oil embargo externally, artificially, and temporarily imposed upon us, not because of some sort of US government plan to control everything. (or I guess you could also be referring to the massive decline in worldwide oil production after the Iranian Revolution and the Iran-Iraq war) Trying to compare a rational reaction to a trade embargo or a war to this is ridiculous.

 

[fskimospy]

This is stupid, California is an awful place.

Sounds like envy to me. Today the sun is shining, it's warm, I live 3 blocks from the beach, and the wind is blowing through the palm trees. In November. I can ride my bike wherever I need to go, there are gorgeous women everywhere, and I'm within walking distance of an amazing wine bar that has a happy hour 7 days a week.

California is an amazing place.