California school can ban US flag.

[Geosurface]

The test is simple: can the school demonstrate that whatever it is that they banned has caused significant disruption? If yes, then they can ban it.

No disruption = can't ban.

And the voice of reason goes ignored... :whiste:

I don't think anyone's denying that there is legal precedent for this sort of ruling. I think what we're saying is that this is an extremely worrying precedent and a snowball that needs to be stopped from rolling further.

Because under this "does it cause disruption" model, let's consider some things which would be completely possible:

School demographics shift to majority or large portion Muslim, and eventually, emboldened by this fact, a significant portion of the male Muslim students start being disruptive and agitating over the issue of the school being coed. School moves to become male only, and insists that the nearby school which is being made female only is a great facility too. Mother of female student brings case to court, saying "this is BS my daughter is established at this school, this is the United States, girls have attended this school for decades, in fact I myself attended that school as a girl."

Court says "too bad, the school has convincingly demonstrated that continuing to be coed will cause significant disruption."

I won't belabor the point, but couldn't Christian fundamentalists who achieved large enough numbers at a school start creating a significant disruption over the school allowing an LGBT club? Or letting a gay student wear a rainbow t-shirt? etc?

Couldn't horrible white racists in the south have made the case, or had the case made on their behalf, of significant disruption when schools were integrated?

And if you want to say "well there are constitutional protections in place for racially and sexually integrated schools" I would just point out that there WERE such protections in place for freedom of speech too, but that didn't stop this nonsense. And frankly, I don't even think displays of our own nation's flag need to be considered as a free speech issue, it's far more basic than that.

Should the school need to take down all the American flags in classrooms and the one out in front of the school on Cinco De Mayo, too? Or am I dating myself by believing those flags are even there in the first place?

 

[Matt1970]

your problem...nice over sensationalizing the thread title

No, if the sight of an American flag on American soil enrages you, regardless of what day it is, the problem is yours.

 

[thraashman]

The problem in this situation isn't that the school disallowed kids to wear an American flag shirt. The problem is the number of people who are defending kids being racist and xenophobic. It's sick and fucking disgusting. These kids were intentionally trying to turn the American flag into a racist symbol. That's possibly the biggest insult to the flag and what it stands for that I can imagine. It's disgusting, the kids are disgusting for doing it, the parents for supporting it, and the assholes who are defending it in this thread are pieces of shit for defending it.

 

[MagickMan]

The problem in this situation isn't that the school disallowed kids to wear an American flag shirt. The problem is the number of people who are defending kids being racist and xenophobic. It's sick and fucking disgusting.

There are a lot of things that are "sick and fucking disgusting", like women in the Middle East being tortured and mutilated for showing their knees, but wearing a shirt isn't one of them. 🙄

 

[Nintendesert]

Yeah, I see St. Patrick's day embraced pretty universally with Irish stuff, why can't Mayo day be accepted like that?

Don't use the American flag to try and make others unwelcome here.

 

[Matt1970]

The problem in this situation isn't that the school disallowed kids to wear an American flag shirt. The problem is the number of people who are defending kids being racist and xenophobic. It's sick and fucking disgusting. These kids were intentionally trying to turn the American flag into a racist symbol. That's possibly the biggest insult to the flag and what it stands for that I can imagine. It's disgusting, the kids are disgusting for doing it, the parents for supporting it, and the assholes who are defending it in this thread are pieces of shit for defending it.

I guess I just don't get how wearing the American flag is racist.

 

[Geosurface]

Yeah, I see St. Patrick's day embraced pretty universally with Irish stuff, why can't Mayo day be accepted like that?

Don't use the American flag to try and make others unwelcome here.

Yea I was thinking about that comparison too. I'm of Irish heritage myself, and I certainly hear you on that.

But you've got to keep a few things in mind here:

1.) The pace and quantity and level of commitment to becoming Americanized and speaking English are not the same.

2.) When there is a more significant racial difference in an immigrating group, it is bound to make people feel more uncomfortable than if the two groups were more closely related. Rage against it if you like, but this is human nature and always has been. These feelings will be triggered even moreso when the immigration is massive and rapid, and entire communities go from being almost entirely white to almost entirely non-white in the space of just a few decades, as is common. Even if you find this evil, it is by no means uniquely so. Mexicans would be just as uncomfortable if it were whites from the US speaking English and celebrating the 4th of July, and complaining about the Mexican flag, pouring into Mexico and demographically dominating certain areas of it in an equivalent way. Same with China, Saudi Arabia, or Kenya. Nobody likes to feel like they're being replaced/displaced and that their cultural heritage and influence are being reduced and made less prominent.

"I mean, they just move in the neighborhood. You just can’t come in the neighborhood. I’m for democracy and letting everybody live but you gotta have some respect. You can’t just come in when people have a culture that’s been laid down for generations and you come in and now shit gotta change because you’re here? Get the fuck outta here. Can’t do that!"

3.) When the dust settled regarding Irish, Polish, German immigrants, etc... they had been fully assimilated and had adopted English, and been thoroughly Americanized. Sure, there road to this was bumpy along the way, but if you assert that the exact same outcome is destined to happen with ALL groups you're ignoring important considerations. None of those groups were actively talking about slicing off a massive portion of the US and adding it onto their nation of origin or insisting on school instruction in their language, etc. All of those groups also had an ocean separating them from their origin nation, and they were immigrating in a time without internet, phones, etc and this all strongly encouraged completely buying into being Americans. They also were coming at a time when the American society emphasized the importance of immigrants assimilating very strongly, rather than our current idea of "multiculturalism" which really just means division. The quantity was not so extreme or so fast. And again, no matter how distasteful you or anyone else finds it... some groups are more easily "brought into the fold" because of being closer culturally, historically, and genetically to the host population/majority.

4.) People have the right to be wrong. Even if you and others are absolutely, rock-solid, 100% correct about the historical arc on this issue and the morality on this issue, some kid in school who is made uncomfortable by immigrants, if that even is the established motive for wearing a flag t-shirt, has the RIGHT TO BE WRONG - meaning it is a natural part of human growth and experience for those kids to later grow up to look back and say "man I'm embarrassed by that, glad I learned to be more accepting and less fearful." Which is exactly how I feel now when I look back at how uncomfortable homosexuality made me and how immaturely I joked about it, when I was 13 or so.

 

[thraashman]

I guess I just don't get how wearing the American flag is racist.

Wearing the American flag isn't racist but these kids were using the American flag as a symbol of their anti-Hispanic racist silent protest. Which is massively insulting to the flag.

 

[MagickMan]

Yeah, I see St. Patrick's day embraced pretty universally with Irish stuff, why can't Mayo day be accepted like that?

Don't use the American flag to try and make others unwelcome here.

Ever been to a St Patty's day parade? Lots of shamrocks and Irish flags on display, but tons of US flags too. They seem to have adapted to it okay.

 

[JTsyo]

No, I want to wear my American flag t-shirt whenever I want to without fear of enraging the oversensitive. We are in America incase some of you didn't notice.

You are missing the context. There's already issues between the two populations. Those wearing the flag t-shirts aren't doing so because they are patriotic but to incite a reaction.

 

[Matt1970]

Wearing the American flag isn't racist but these kids were using the American flag as a symbol of their anti-Hispanic racist silent protest. Which is massively insulting to the flag.

Schools typically fly the American flag, for now anyways, are they going to take that down as well on May 5th? Also if I am living in a foreign country on July 4th am I supposed to get offended if I see their flag anywhere?

 

[Fanatical Meat]

I guess I just don't get how wearing the American flag is racist.

Fine then a school uniform. White shirt sleeves required, short sleeves are acceptable black pants or knee length black skirt. Black, tan or brown shoes. No visual tattoos or body art.
And for all the ass clowns that are going to say poor people can't afford the clothes, the state needs to buy it for them since everyone wants to prevent additional security expenses and the school doesn't want to have to police its students.
And to all the conservatives, I am running the school like a business so you should like this idea.

 

[Matt1970]

You are missing the context. There's already issues between the two populations. Those wearing the flag t-shirts aren't doing so because they are patriotic but to incite a reaction.

No, I didn't miss the context one bit. The problem is people reacting to the American flag. If people weren't somehow offended by the flag itself, there wouldn't even be an issue.

 

[JEDIYoda]

One can make the same past experience argument to blame women for getting raped based on what they wear.

I just love it when people who are morons post stupid stuff!!

 

[Geosurface]

Those wearing the flag t-shirts aren't doing so because they are patriotic but to incite a reaction.

I'm sure they would describe what they're doing as BEING the reaction and as being a display of their patriotism.

Are gay pride parades not actually because gays are proud but just to incite a reaction?

I see tons of liberals' cars with bumper stickers which are obviously meant to be "in your face" and I've heard plenty of liberals openly express joy in knowing how much it will piss off religious conservatives to see some of those bumper stickers, yet this doesn't make me question the sincerity of their feelings and beliefs on those issues. I understand that the desire to be open and visible and "let your voice be heard" on an issue can be both a manifestation of deeply held principles AND an incitement. No contradiction.

I also understand that the bulk if not the entirety of those decrying these kids and their flag t-shirts would be cheering if it were gay kids fighting for the right to wear these t-shirts:

at some southern high school where the administration and other students were preventing them from having an LGBT club and cracking down on them wearing those shirts.

I find that hypocritical. Personally, I would support either expression of free speech fully.

And I cannot understand why liberals have so little belief in the cultures and nations which gave rise to them, and which are the only ones which even make people like them possible.

 

[runzwithsizorz]

When the school where my wife taught in north Tijuana, (formerly south San Diego), went to school uniforms, a lot of problems were solved.
After school activities such as gang beating white kids, tagging everything in sight, and in general, trashing entire neighborhoods continued. The school district did back, and promote celebrations such as, Cinco de Mayo, the Reconquista, and clubs such as MECHA. http://www.mayorno.com/WhoIsMecha.html

 

[Fanatical Meat]

I'm sure they would describe what they're doing as BEING the reaction and as being a display of their patriotism.

Are gay pride parades not actually because gays are proud but just to incite a reaction?

I see tons of liberals' cars with bumper stickers which are obviously meant to be "in your face" and I've heard plenty of liberals openly express joy in knowing how much it will piss off religious conservatives to see some of those bumper stickers, yet this doesn't make me question the sincerity of their feelings and beliefs on those issues. I understand that the desire to be open and visible and "let your voice be heard" on an issue can be both a manifestation of deeply held principles AND an incitement. No contradiction.

I also understand that the bulk if not the entirety of those decrying these kids and their flag t-shirts would be cheering if it were gay kids fighting for the right to wear these t-shirts:

at some southern high school where the administration and other students were preventing them from having an LGBT club and cracking down on them wearing those shirts.

I find that hypocritical. Personally, I would support either expression of free speech fully.

And I cannot understand why liberals have so little belief in the cultures and nations which gave rise to them, and which are the only ones which even make people like them possible.

Ha try showing up with a Nazi bumper sticker on your car to work and see what happens to your career. Sure you are free to do it but the landowner/business owner is also free not to allow you in. Look at it as the school is teaching students that if they choose to stir shit up and cause problems there will be consequences, just like in real life after high school.

 

[Geosurface]

When the school where my wife taught in north Tijuana, (formerly south San Diego), went to school uniforms, a lot of problems were solved.
After school activities such as gang beating white kids, tagging everything in sight, and in general, trashing entire neighborhoods continued. The school district did back, and promote celebrations such as, Cinco de Mayo, the Reconquista, and clubs such as MECHA.

Perhaps 40 years from now when the children of today's American liberals are having to get permission from Mexico to visit the Grand Canyon and Los Angeles the lesson will finally be relearned that you only have those rights which you are prepared to defend, and that the same is true of territory.

Ha try showing up with a Nazi bumper sticker on your car to work and see what happens to your career. Sure you are free to do it but the landowner/business owner is also free not to allow you in. Look at it as the school is teaching students that if they choose to stir shit up and cause problems there will be consequences, just like in real life after high school.

Well it says an awful lot about where we are as a country that wearing the American flag as an American citizen in an American school... in America... is being compared to a Swastika or being called racist in this thread and elsewhere.

I just wonder how okay with it the same liberals who are casting stones at these kids would be if the situation where reversed, and it was the Latino kids who weren't being allowed to display the Mexican flag on the 4th of July and were being fired from their jobs because they had shown up to work with a Mexican flag bumper sticker, etc.

Personally, I don't think freedom of speech should be based on the direction the political and cultural winds are blowing at any particular time. I think it should be absolute or as near to it as can be achieved. I think it sends a horrible message to people to show them that if they whine and get offended and aggressive enough, any and all of our principles are on the table for tweaking and elimination to get them to calm down.

 

[sportage]

I guess You'd had to have been there?
We know there is more to the story.
Can't pawn this off as some commie school anti-American flag thing.
But I suppose there are some that will lose sleep over this....

 

[Pens1566]

Schools have a lot of leeway when it comes to banning clothing, so while I think the entire situation is ridiculous, I'm indifferent to the school's response. But I am curious why some people (stereotypically conservatives) are so anxious to drape themselves in the flag when the US Flag Code specifically states the flag should never be worn? I guess I've never understood the need to loudly proclaim one's allegiance to a particular group, whether it's a Nation, a religion, or otherwise... But to each their own.

^ This

The problem here isn't so much that kids wore American flag shirts. It's that they did it specifically to try to incense the Mexican American population at the school. It'd be the same if a student intentionally wore a Confederate flag shirt during black history month. This situation comes close to the "yelling fire in a crowded theater" exception to free speech. It's being done due to safety concerns. If the students weren't doing it specifically to attempt to start a racial fight, then there'd be no problem with it.

and ^ this

 

[Brainonska511]

Why is this being ignored? It is well established case law that students free speech can be curtailed if the speech interferes with student education or safety.

The 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals said the officials' concerns of racial violence outweighed students' freedom of expression rights. Administrators feared the American-flag shirts would enflame the passions of Latino students celebrating the Mexican holiday. Live Oak High School, in the San Jose suburb of Morgan Hill, had a history of problems between white and Latino students on that day.

 

[CWRMadcat]

Why does celebrating a culture that's not "America," a culture that happens to be the background for many of the students who attend this school, have to inspire acts of jingoistic outrage among some people to the point of literally wearing our country's flag as an act of defiance? What's the worst that could happen? Oh shit, the Mexicans are taking back California because some high-schoolers realized the true meaning of Cinco de Mayo after our patriotic sons and daughters were silenced? Why can't we celebrate different cultures without lunatics getting their panties in a twist and trying to make it about themselves? Shit, we celebrated Cinco de Mayo at my school growing up and I think we had one Latino in the entire school. Who cares? It's one day where you can let the Mexican kids have their fun and not be a dick about things and that's apparently too much civility to expect. What a pointless thing to be upset about.

Reposting the only sensible post in the thread.

 

[Brainonska511]

Perhaps 40 years from now when the children of today's American liberals are having to get permission from Mexico to visit the Grand Canyon and Los Angeles the lesson will finally be relearned that you only have those rights which you are prepared to defend, and that the same is true of territory.

Translation: blahblahblah liberals blahblahblah

 

[michal1980]

No, if the sight of an American flag on American soil enrages you, regardless of what day it is, the problem is yours.

+1

 

[Geosurface]

Why is this being ignored? It is well established case law that students free speech can be curtailed if the speech interferes with student education or safety.

For my own part, that is just another facet to this that I disagree with.

At least partially.

There may indeed be a good case to be made for school environments having some greater control over speech and attire for the sake of a productive learning environment. That's really a separate discussion though.

There is no legitimate basis for banning the frigging flag of the nation this is all taking place in! Including the flag code which is universally ignored. This isn't a school with uniforms. This would not be a violation of their dress code under any other circumstances and wasn't before this issue came up. These are also shirts which would be permitted in any other school throughout the nation.

This is a case of rules being changed specifically to appease a problem group, and that just simply isn't good law or good precedent to set, and it sends a horrible message letting everyone know that the culture of this nation will absolutely bend and even break before we would ever consider standing up for it. You just watch and see where that gets us in the coming years. It will eventually get to the point where even those who manage to ignore its impact now (miraculously) no longer can.

And presumably this exact same issue would be happening even if it was small American flag pins or patches on backpacks, rather than t-shirts.