California Graduation Test

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: BoberFett
rchiu is the perfect example of liberalism gone bad. He's well intentioned, but he's blind to the fact that by dismissing the important of the foundations of education he's dooming people to a life of poverty, and harming them more than any conservative could. Many conservatives simply believe we need to get school back to the basics, reading, writing and arithmetic. People like rchiu want it to be day care for teenagers where we make them feel good about themselves, and don't ever tell them that they need improvement in some areas.

First, stop spouting this outright lie that it's not important to be good at English and math because they may excel in music or sports. How many people make a living in those areas? I'm not talking about 50 cent or Michael Jordan. I'm just talking about making a basic living. Not many. A tiny minority of the population do things in those areas for their main job. Saying that if a child can run fast he doesn't need to read well is simply evil my eyes. :|

Reading someone's facial expression in a business deal? You feel that is more important than being able to read the contract to begin with? How many poor people do you see making "business deals"? It doesn't happen, because they can't read or do math and never find themselves in a position to make a "business deal".

This is supposed to be a democracy, where the people choose their leaders. How is someone supposed to properly choose who to vote for if they can't read a newspaper to determine what the candidates positions are. And don't give me any garbage about watching TV. TV is a wasteland. A major newspaper contains more information than 48 hours worth of TV news. Perhaps you WANT them to be uneducated, so you can simply tell them to vote for Democrats like the good little poverty-bots they are. :|

Forget conversatives, they've got nothing on people like rchiu; the true enemy of the poor. English and math are the cornerstones of education. They're the foundation on which all other skills are based. He seems to feel that we should forget trying to push those, and just throw the building up on top of it. Hey, if it falls down, at least that homey can run fast. Maybe he can get into the NFL. :|

Heh, I am not trying to make anyone to feel good about themselves. I am just telling it as it is. If you look back at the older generation, there are plenty of people who immigrated to this country dirt poor without any kind of education and successfully earned a good living and realized American dream in this country. I am not even talking about artist and athletes, there are millions of people who are successful because they are good at what they do, not necessary something based on math or English. I have seen good sales person who can talk someone into buying anything, but he/she isn?t able to write a short essay. I have seen successful small business owner with 10 employees and the most math he can do is addition and basic multiplication, and if you start talking algebra, he is just gonna stair you in your face. I am going to say it again, Math and English is not everything in this society, hard work and dedication is. Your assumption that anyone without decent education cannot be successful is simply WRONG.

Some people may think a society full of scientist and engineer is a good thing. Well, that is not necessary a good thing. America needs scientist and engineers don?t get me wrong, but we also need people to perform millions other different jobs in this country many of which do not require math or even decent English. We need people to run those production lines, what kind of math or English skill do you need to do that? We need people to run that corner laundry store, do you need algebra or know Shakespeare to do that? Like I said, as long as government provides avenue for people to continue their education even when they are adults, anyone can take advantage of that when they are ready through out their life. They don?t need the high school to label them simply based on if they can pass some stupid English or Math tests. Why does the definition of success have to be someone able to write something pretty, run some complex calculation, and make millions of dollars? Why can?t an honest person earning honest living and taking care of his/her family be seen as a success?

For every ignorant immigrant that "made" it I can show 30 that are cleaning rooms at motel 6. Sure there are genious or just plain lucky hard workers that hit the jackpot, but every known statistic shows people with education do far better than those w/o. And those with advanced education (professional school or graduate education) do even better than those with a BS. Education Pays period to deny it is folly and setting these kids up for a trash can with thier name on it. (or worse a prison cell or welfare check)

 

[Whaspe]

If they're whining about that kind of test don't send them up to Alberta. There are provincially administered "diploma's" worth 50% of your mark in English, Social Studies, Math, Chemistry , Physics and Biology or for those in a general science program Science. These are all written at the Grade 12 level and students must get a final mark of 50% to pass.
Provincial tests are not exclusive to the grade 12 level, provincial acheivement tests in grades 3, 6, and 9 are administered and a students results is compared with everyone else; a report is given to the parents outlining their childs acheivements and areas of difficulty.
As a result of all this, those graduating with a High School Diploma in Alberta, have succeeded in passing the benchmark set by the Alberta Government and that carries a certain level of worth and respect with it. It is definitely an acheivement. For more info look here. or here for examples of students writing.

I agree with those who say that as far as success is concerned (although that is a subjective term) you don't need an education. However, I would argue that education provides a certain quality and appreciation of life that is unequaled with those lacking it. Sadly, it is also possible to make it through education and ignore what it is you are learning. This I have witnessed first hand where people ace tests but are dumbfounded in a laboratory or incapable of applying their knowledge to real world problems. But again this observation is a subjective one.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: Zebo
For every ignorant immigrant that "made" it I can show 30 that are cleaning rooms at motel 6. Sure there are genious or just plain lucky hard workers that hit the jackpot, but every known statistic shows people with education do far better than those w/o. And those with advanced education (professional school or graduate education) do even better than those with a BS. Education Pays period to deny it is folly and setting these kids up for a trash can with thier name on it. (or worse a prison cell or welfare check)

Finally. I was beginning to think I was the only one who thought rchiu's dreams of uneducated success stories was a crock.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: Zebo
For every ignorant immigrant that "made" it I can show 30 that are cleaning rooms at motel 6. Sure there are genious or just plain lucky hard workers that hit the jackpot, but every known statistic shows people with education do far better than those w/o. And those with advanced education (professional school or graduate education) do even better than those with a BS. Education Pays period to deny it is folly and setting these kids up for a trash can with thier name on it. (or worse a prison cell or welfare check)

Again, you are measuring success with pay. My arguement is why should that be the only way to measure success? So what if someone cleans room at motel 6? Is that person worse than those at Enron, each with Ivy League education but stole billions from investors? As long as the person is a productive member of the society, what' the deal with you guys and the society labeling them as a success or failure base on two freaking exam? I say a husband and father who puts 3 meals on the table, a roof over the family's head, and all the love he can gives is a successful person in life.

In the US, you can make a decent living being a bus driver, handyman, car repair man, and so many more if you just willing to work hard and go find opportunity. And if you are lucky, you can even become a millioniar without a high school or college degree. Look, I am not saying don't go to college, and don't study math and English. Those are important if you want certain thing in life. But if you really don't have the talent and the ability to do it, and you try and try, but just cannot get the necessary grade, you don't have to feel bad, there are plenty of other ways to be successful in life. The worst thing the school system can do is telling the student if they are a passer or a failure just base one two exam.

 

[Zebo]

It's not just money. It's understanding the world around you, opening your mind up to all sorts of possiblites and ways of thinking about the world. Sure money is what makes the world go round... you don't have to have a lot of money but you do have to have education so you can understand consequences debt so one does'nt find themselves in a depressed state wondering how they got themselves in so much debt and can't find a way out. Our political system is based on we the people making informed choices. How can you say we have a democracy when only 40% vote? Are the others just too ill imformed? Look, I'm not saying you have to understand quantum chemistry to graduate HS but after 12 years, and 14 years now with head start, you sure better be able to do math up to trig. And in english, be able to read and write at the 12th grade level!

There is something else we hav'nt talked about here with this "does'nt matter" attitude. And that's the harm it does to the other children in education by educating to the least common denominator and dumbing down these tests and curriculum along the way so "everyone can graduate". How much are we stunting thier growth? I'd bet a lot since I'm no genious and experianced it myself in school.

 

[episodic]

It does not matter anyhow. They will find an end run around the test and give all those undeserving students diplomas anyhow. Nothing more to see, move along. . .

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: episodic
It does not matter anyhow. They will find an end run around the test and give all those undeserving students diplomas anyhow. Nothing more to see, move along. . .

I agree. But actually, this test is the state's attempt to try to give some kind of meaning to having a high school diploma. A high school diploma itself is pretty much meaningless in the real world.

High school (and elementary school, middle school for that matter) for a great number of students in the government school system is nothing more a daycare center. Here in San Diego, and I am sure elsewhere (especially L.A.) the high schools have become police states/prisons. There are dress codes, rules about leaving campus during the school day, penalties for tardiness/absence etc. Additionally, I see cop cars around school campuses all the time now.

Personally, I got nothing out of high school. I felt like I was in a system of mere inertia, as if I was just going through some artificial system designed to merely appease administrators. It goes without saying that there was almost nothing inspiring being taught in any of my classes.

If I ever have kids I will make sure without a doubt that they go to a good private school where they have real academic standards. This entails learning in elementary/middle school/high school what is being taught in today's universities. I spent a couple years in the community college system and now I am an upper division math undergrad at UCSD (University of California San Diego). The concepts I am learning now are something that I should have been exposed to years ago in middle school and high school, and maybe even elementary school, especially regarding set theory and group theory.

Just the other day, my professor in my abstract algebra class brought a cardboard triangle to class with numbers on it and started rotating it around and talked about groups of symmetry. Why couldn't this be something taught in elementary school?? Perhaps the advanced concepts of groups of symmetry could be witheld. But I don't think that the initial concepts are something impossible for a child to grasp.

In any event, all around me I see people from foreign countries having no problem with math concepts that take me a lot longer to grasp. I can't help but think that their conceptual seeds were sewn a lot earlier than mine.

In a nutshell I think today's public education system is abominable. It is really just 'free' daycare funded by the property tax racket. My remedy is a complete removal of the government from education. Those who want daycare can pay for daycare, and those who want a real education can pay for a real education.

 

[Gigantopithecus]

Originally posted by: Dissipate
In a nutshell I think today's public education system is abomidable.

Do you mean 'abominable'?

Foe net ik spel ers r graj u ets to!

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: Gigantopithecus

Originally posted by: Dissipate
In a nutshell I think today's public education system is abomidable.

Do you mean 'abominable'?

Foe net ik spel ers r graj u ets to!

I guess you have never misspelled a word in your life. Thou art the holiest. :thumbsup:

 

[Zebo]

. A high school diploma itself is pretty much meaningless in the real world.

I donno about that. I know some HS where you improve you chances of being admitted to a top 10 university exponetially. Unfortunatly they're all private costing tens of thousands of dollars They teach you latin, the classics, calculus etc.. Not saying public schools could attain that level of reputation, but how about shooting for a little higher than 50% passing grade on a numb nuts exam?

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: Zebo

. A high school diploma itself is pretty much meaningless in the real world.

I donno about that. I know some HS where you improve you chances of being admitted to a top 10 university exponetially. Unfortunatly they're all private costing tens of thousands of dollars They teach you latin, the classics, calculus etc.. Not saying public schools could attain that level of reputation, but how about shooting for a little higher than 50% passing grade on a numb nuts exam?

Well, of course it depends on the high school. I was referring to public high schools.

One thing I will say is that just because 50% is passing on the exam is meaningless in and of itself. On a lot of the exams in my classes 50% could very well curve to a B or, even in some extreme cases an A. However, from what I have heard about this particular exam 50% sounds ridiculously low. As I said before, it is the government's lame attempt to try to give meaning to its diploma.

 

[rchiu]

Anyway, I am not here trying to find excuse for those people who are too lazy to pass high school. What I do want is for people in this forum to realize that there is a big portion of population out there who have difficulties grasping concepts that come easily to tech savy people like us.

Take another measurement of people for example: IQ

The average IQ of all people is ~100, and there is significant number of people with IQ < 90. That group has significant higer high school dropout rate, and more people in that group live in poverty. It is just a bad idea for the school system to give all people the same test to determine if student can pass high school or not. There will be people like us who think those tests are joke, but for that 20+% people who are unfortunately less capable in terms of critical thinking, those tests can be real difficult for them. Society should not just automatically label them as failures, and give up on them. There should be system that can help them, help them be successful at what they are good at, maybe something other than math and English. And people should respect them as long as they try hard and becomes respectable citizens.

Sometimes I am just sick and tired of people who are at least computer savy and posts stuff on forum with elitist attitude and declare those who are less capable lazy or somehow sub-human. There are lots of people out there who doesn't know computer, who suck at math or English, but it doesn't make them less decent human being then the rest of us.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: rchiu
Anyway, I am not here trying to find excuse for those people who are too lazy to pass high school. What I do want is for people in this forum to realize that there is a big portion of population out there who have difficulties grasping concepts that come easily to tech savy people like us.

Take another measurement of people for example: IQ

The average IQ of all people is ~100, and there is significant number of people with IQ < 90. That group has significant higer high school dropout rate, and more people in that group live in poverty. It is just a bad idea for the school system to give all people the same test to determine if student can pass high school or not. There will be people like us who think those tests are joke, but for that 20+% people who are unfortunately less capable in terms of critical thinking, those tests can be real difficult for them. Society should not just automatically label them as failures, and give up on them. There should be system that can help them, help them be successful at what they are good at, maybe something other than math and English. And people should respect them as long as they try hard and becomes respectable citizens.

Sometimes I am just sick and tired of people who are at least computer savy and posts stuff on forum with elitist attitude and declare those who are less capable lazy or somehow sub-human. There are lots of people out there who doesn't know computer, who suck at math or English, but it doesn't make them less decent human being then the rest of us.

First of all, IQ is not something that is fixed. It can change throughout your lifetime as you learn new things, or perhaps get old and forget certain things.

As a corollary to that, genetics only play a certain role in determining IQ. The human brain basically starts off as a blank slate. As an infant receives sensory inputs, connections in its brain between the neurons are formed. The formation of these connections are what allow the infant to grow mentally into a thinking human being. Hence, it goes without saying that the sensory inputs are important in determining the number and quality of those connections. For instance, if you put an infant in a pure white room, with no contact with other people or anything else, I doubt it would be anywhere near as intelligent as an infant fully exposed to people and objects (aside from the fact it probably would have no language to speak of).

This is not to say that genetics/chance plays no role whatsoever. For instance, I would venture to say that there is probably something fundamentally different between Bobby Fischer's brain and say the brain of an average club chess player. Whether or not that was brought about by his genetics or by rare and freakish neuron connections formed while he was a child is up for debate.

In any event, I would say that many of these kids with below average IQ were probably not exposed to very many/good sensory inputs as infants/children. There is no one to blame for that but the parents. It does not surprise me that these kids come from poor families. The poor households I have seen have had few books around the house, a number of TVs that the children watch plenty and a general neglect by the parents of academic performance in school.

I don't think it is elitist to say that these parents are irresponsible. I know I certainly do. This is not to say that I look down on them, but I lack respect for them. When you say that there should be a system for these kids, I want to make something clear: the government cannot and never will help these kids. What the government will do is (and has) indoctrinate these kids (and their parents) into believing in government programs and racial quotas. The politicians will continue to clamor for more tax dollars to be stuffed into their daycare centers and continuously claim that they are going to reform the public daycare/prison (daycare in elementary school and prison by high school) system. Actually, what they really should be called is indoctrination centers. For it is in the public school system that every good pupil learns that his government is 'good.'

I'm sure that there are a number of ATers who have kids in the daycare/indoctrination centers right now. Without a second thought they will have their kid's future be determined by a mega-bureaucracy funded by a propterty tax racket. Afterall, it is so much easier to have your kid in a daycare center than a real institution of learning. That way you can trick them and yourself into believing that they are learning something while you are left alone to do your work during the day all for the price of "free." How can you pass up a bargain like that?

 

[BoberFett]

rchiu

You said

What I do want is for people in this forum to realize that there is a big portion of population out there who have difficulties grasping concepts that come easily to tech savy people like us.

You then said.

Sometimes I am just sick and tired of people who are at least computer savy and posts stuff on forum with elitist attitude and declare those who are less capable lazy or somehow sub-human. There are lots of people out there who doesn't know computer, who suck at math or English, but it doesn't make them less decent human being then the rest of us.

I think you need to look in the mirror and figure out who the elitist is.

Society should not just automatically label them as failures, and give up on them. There should be system that can help them, help them be successful at what they are good at, maybe something other than math and English. And people should respect them as long as they try hard and becomes respectable citizens.

Who said anything about giving up on them? You're the one giving up on them. You're the one who wants to say that not understanding English and math is OK, just give everyone a diploma. Without a standard for excellence, you're just shoving kids through a meat grinder with no concern about what comes out the other side.

You are the one who's hurting these kids. Perhaps if you were more educated and skilled in critical thinking, you'd understand that.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: rchiu
Anyway, I am not here trying to find excuse for those people who are too lazy to pass high school. What I do want is for people in this forum to realize that there is a big portion of population out there who have difficulties grasping concepts that come easily to tech savy people like us.

Take another measurement of people for example: IQ

The average IQ of all people is ~100, and there is significant number of people with IQ < 90. That group has significant higer high school dropout rate, and more people in that group live in poverty. It is just a bad idea for the school system to give all people the same test to determine if student can pass high school or not. There will be people like us who think those tests are joke, but for that 20+% people who are unfortunately less capable in terms of critical thinking, those tests can be real difficult for them. Society should not just automatically label them as failures, and give up on them. There should be system that can help them, help them be successful at what they are good at, maybe something other than math and English. And people should respect them as long as they try hard and becomes respectable citizens.

Sometimes I am just sick and tired of people who are at least computer savy and posts stuff on forum with elitist attitude and declare those who are less capable lazy or somehow sub-human. There are lots of people out there who doesn't know computer, who suck at math or English, but it doesn't make them less decent human being then the rest of us.

True but what they are asking is bare minimal. ! 8th grade math and 10th grade english skills at a 50% pass mark!!! Gimme a break, if you suffer from clinical retardation you should'nt get a diploma. It's also true predomintly black schools get less money than white ones due to property tax sharing issues but the lowest funded schools n CA get over nine grand a year per pupil which is 2x more than any private catholic school which mops the floor with these public school kids.

 

[tec699]

You people need to critically think about this issue.

California is going thru the biggest change in their history! California is changing and it's all because of legal/illegal immigration. How many of those people that failed are Mexicans? Are those test both in English/Spanish? How many of those students can even read English?

just a thought.

 

[tec699]

but the lowest funded schools n CA get over nine grand a year per pupil which is 2x more than any private catholic school which mops the floor with these public school kids

Maybe so, but those poor children don't see any of that money. Most of it goes to administration and other pork projects. It's not fair.

And anyway, I have a feeling that the parents of the children in catholic schools are more proactive in educating their children then the poor childrens' parents who attend public schools. I bet Catholic school parents go to school functions, aren't on drugs, have a stable loving environment for their children, etc... Many of the poor children in public schools don't have this so issues arise when they are in school.

just another thought.

 

[episodic]

Originally posted by: tec699
You people need to critically think about this issue.

California is going thru the biggest change in their history! California is changing and it's all because of legal/illegal immigration. How many of those people that failed are Mexicans? Are those test both in English/Spanish? How many of those students can even read English?

just a thought.

That is another issue. Should you get an AMERICAN diploma if you can't speak English? It isn't the American schools fault if your family illegally immagrated here when you were 16. . .

 

[episodic]

Originally posted by: rchiu
Anyway, I am not here trying to find excuse for those people who are too lazy to pass high school. What I do want is for people in this forum to realize that there is a big portion of population out there who have difficulties grasping concepts that come easily to tech savy people like us.

Take another measurement of people for example: IQ

The average IQ of all people is ~100, and there is significant number of people with IQ < 90. That group has significant higer high school dropout rate, and more people in that group live in poverty. It is just a bad idea for the school system to give all people the same test to determine if student can pass high school or not. There will be people like us who think those tests are joke, but for that 20+% people who are unfortunately less capable in terms of critical thinking, those tests can be real difficult for them. Society should not just automatically label them as failures, and give up on them. There should be system that can help them, help them be successful at what they are good at, maybe something other than math and English. And people should respect them as long as they try hard and becomes respectable citizens.

Sometimes I am just sick and tired of people who are at least computer savy and posts stuff on forum with elitist attitude and declare those who are less capable lazy or somehow sub-human. There are lots of people out there who doesn't know computer, who suck at math or English, but it doesn't make them less decent human being then the rest of us.

Most people in this thread are not saying they are sub-human - just undeserving of a high school diploma. You need to set a bar - and that needs to be the bar.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: BoberFett
Who said anything about giving up on them? You're the one giving up on them. You're the one who wants to say that not understanding English and math is OK, just give everyone a diploma. Without a standard for excellence, you're just shoving kids through a meat grinder with no concern about what comes out the other side.

You are the one who's hurting these kids. Perhaps if you were more educated and skilled in critical thinking, you'd understand that.

No, I didn't say give everyone diploma. I said English and Math shouldn't be the only two criteria for passing a person in high school, and it certainly should not be based on two tests that treats everyone the same. Each person is unique, the person maybe good in math or English, or maybe the person is better in art and music, maybe the person is a good athlete, maybe the person pays attention to details, is loyal and caring, but just don?t get what the heck those trigonometry terminology is.

Society should judge people on a much wider set of criteria then just math and English. And the school system should do more then just giving every single person, regardless of their background and individual talent, two freaking test and judge who pass and who fail base on that. Learning is a long process, and it involves much wider subjects. How each person does in two written test by no means represent how the person will do in life.

I guess some people and the system just want to have a quick solution to a problem, yeah give 2 tests to every single person, and those who pass, give them a diploma and those who don?t just fail them. How much easier can it get, it?s cheap and teachers don?t have to work too much to evaluate each individual over the years. Good for the taxpayers, good for the teachers, good for the administrators, and the politicians look good. Hey, good for everyone right? Just screw those people who just don?t get 8th grade math or 9/10th grade English, like not knowing the word narcissistic is drawn from the myth of Narcissus and Echo. (for those who don?t know, I am referring to this) Never mind developing those people in stuff like art and music, never mind providing those people technical job training that don't require too much Math and English. Just label them a failure by not giving them the most basic diploma that everyone else have, and let them deal with the discrimination that's gonna come their way throughout their life because of that.

If this is not giving up, I don?t know what is.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: episodic

Originally posted by: rchiu
Anyway, I am not here trying to find excuse for those people who are too lazy to pass high school. What I do want is for people in this forum to realize that there is a big portion of population out there who have difficulties grasping concepts that come easily to tech savy people like us.

Take another measurement of people for example: IQ

The average IQ of all people is ~100, and there is significant number of people with IQ < 90. That group has significant higer high school dropout rate, and more people in that group live in poverty. It is just a bad idea for the school system to give all people the same test to determine if student can pass high school or not. There will be people like us who think those tests are joke, but for that 20+% people who are unfortunately less capable in terms of critical thinking, those tests can be real difficult for them. Society should not just automatically label them as failures, and give up on them. There should be system that can help them, help them be successful at what they are good at, maybe something other than math and English. And people should respect them as long as they try hard and becomes respectable citizens.

Sometimes I am just sick and tired of people who are at least computer savy and posts stuff on forum with elitist attitude and declare those who are less capable lazy or somehow sub-human. There are lots of people out there who doesn't know computer, who suck at math or English, but it doesn't make them less decent human being then the rest of us.

Most people in this thread are not saying they are sub-human - just undeserving of a high school diploma. You need to set a bar - and that needs to be the bar.

Yeah, tell me this, when you heard of the term high school drop out, what kind of person do you associate that term with? I am not saying you don't need to set a bar, I am questionning setting that bar simply based on two subjects, math and English. As well as basing that bar on two exams written by bunch of people sitting in their ivory towers.

 

[BoberFett]

I give up. There's no point in arguing with an idiot who refuses to acknowledge that English and math skills are important no matter who you are.