California AT folks, you okay? Governor issues historic drought restrictions:

[Phoenix86]

The problem is most farmers only pay for wells. The water is "free".

At this point I'm gonna have to borrow for the other thread.

 

[Muse]

It still isn't certain whether El Nino will produce significant water or not, but it looks like it will at least form this year.

In fact, El Nino is historically associated with average or weak rainfall; it is only the event in the early 90s and, I think 70s, that produced insane amounts of rain that people remember and associate with El Nino.

http://ggweather.com/enso2014/

Weak to average El Nino conditions aren't historically predictive of significantly above average rainfall/snowpacks. But strong El Nino conditions have a very significant correlation to big rainfall events, snow in the Sierras. From what I've been reading in the newspaper it looks like we are likely to be experiencing a strong El Nino, so there's reason to hope that drought conditions will improve a lot by next spring. It might not work out that way, though.

An issue with a lot of rainfall is people then forget or do not care about conservation anymore. They will punt the ball as a result.

Short term memories

I think in general people who have lived through more than one drought in CA have learned conservation techniques. I sure have. I don't regard water as an infinite resource. I try not to waste it, whether we are in "exceptional drought" conditions or not. In fact come drought or not, my usage won't change a whole lot.

 

[Muse]

when i told my SIL that ~80% of CA's water usage was agriculture and cutbacks were needed, she went off the rocker (she grew up on a farm).

I've heard that CA is easily the most productive state for food production in the USA.

 

[Muse]

I don't think anyone is going to argue against that, but until the ag sector starts doing its part nothing else is going to amount to much.

A lot of AG land is going fallow right now because farmers can't afford the water to keep them active. Even almond trees and other perennials are dieing.

 

[Ruptga]

A lot of AG land is going fallow right now because farmers can't afford the water to keep them active. Even almond trees and other perennials are dieing.

Yeah I know, except it's really that they're not using that water because it's not there anymore, it's not that they can't afford it. Many farms get their water for basically nothing, so they don't really care how much they use until it runs out, because if it doesn't affect the bottom line it doesn't matter right? Then when the water runs out they cry about golf courses sucking up all the water and government mismanagement. They, as a whole, are not doing their part to conserve water.

If the free market we're so keen on were allowed to work they actually might not be able to afford it, and rising costs would ensure that the state never literally ran out of fresh water. Instead there are price ceilings due to grandfathered agreements and subsidies, so they have no real economic incentives to improve efficiency or gradually cut back operations. On top of that, anyone that tries to make them pay true market rates gets destroyed because they hate America, etc. like I already said.

 

[zinfamous]

A lot of AG land is going fallow right now because farmers can't afford the water to keep them active. Even almond trees and other perennials are dieing.

that's not true. those signs have been out there along I5 for years before the current drought, and the only thing they announce is the selfish stupidity of the idiot farmer that refused to adapt. The government hasn't done anything to them--in fact, they've done everything to themselves, the lazy cunts.

The state has done way too much for farmers, and that is the problem. See that pie up there that Phoenix posted? Think about that 77% slice, and recall a month or so ago when governor Brown was up on his podium, and said "No, we aren't touching farmers at all. Nothing changes for farmers."

what the holy fuck: "No, we really have no desire to address the problem."

 

[NoTine42]

I've heard that CA is easily the most productive state for food production in the USA.

It's easy to be a productive farmer in a desert if you are given enough water to grow stuff.
Dry means more sun, and more growing seasons a year. Dry means fewer diseases/mold.
That Dry + a bunch of cheap labor = a farming goldmine created by the government.

It's not that most California ag production can't be replaced in other states (I think NY had the nut trees before California got irrigation), it's just artificially easier in California.

 

[IronWing]

that's not true. those signs have been out there along I5 for years before the current drought, and the only thing they announce is the selfish stupidity of the idiot farmer that refused to adapt. The government hasn't done anything to them--in fact, they've done everything to themselves, the lazy cunts.

The state has done way too much for farmers, and that is the problem. See that pie up there that Phoenix posted? Think about that 77% slice, and recall a month or so ago when governor Brown was up on his podium, and said "No, we aren't touching farmers at all. Nothing changes for farmers."

what the holy fuck: "No, we really have no desire to address the problem."

Some of the almond groves along I-5 were planted since the drought began. Bet the planters are collecting drought insurance on orchards they knew would die.

 

[zinfamous]

Some of the almond groves along I-5 were planted since the drought began. Bet the planters are collecting drought insurance on orchards they knew would die.

no question about it. Works so well for corn.

 

[Phoenix86]

that's not true. those signs have been out there along I5 for years before the current drought, and the only thing they announce is the selfish stupidity of the idiot farmer that refused to adapt. The government hasn't done anything to them--in fact, they've done everything to themselves, the lazy cunts.

The state has done way too much for farmers, and that is the problem. See that pie up there that Phoenix posted? Think about that 77% slice, and recall a month or so ago when governor Brown was up on his podium, and said "No, we aren't touching farmers at all. Nothing changes for farmers."

what the holy fuck: "No, we really have no desire to address the problem."

Remember when he said to reduce total usage by 25% too? Add these two statements together and it basically says farms remain untouched, everyone else gets -2% water.

 

[Muse]

that's not true. those signs have been out there along I5 for years before the current drought, and the only thing they announce is the selfish stupidity of the idiot farmer that refused to adapt.

Hey, what do I know? I've been on I5 (Oakland <---> San Diego) one time only in the last 10+ years, that was a couple years ago. I might have seen those signs, don't remember them. The farmers, yeah, a lot of them, the ones with grandfathered water rights especially, think they have a god given right to water, but the courts can decide differently in critical times.

Of course a lot of this will take something of a back seat if and when there's a truly calamitous earthquake. The water crisis we can manage one way or the other, painfully for some. That's gradual stuff. 2 minutes of violent shaking and it's a different state.

 

[zinfamous]

Hey, what do I know? I've been on I5 (Oakland <---> San Diego) one time only in the last 10+ years, that was a couple years ago. I might have seen those signs, don't remember them. The farmers, yeah, a lot of them, the ones with grandfathered water rights especially, think they have a god given right to water, but the courts can decide differently in critical times.

Of course a lot of this will take something of a back seat if and when there's a truly calamitous earthquake. The water crisis we can manage one way or the other, painfully for some. That's gradual stuff. 2 minutes of shaking and it's a different state.

the water rights in California are archaic and stupid. While it's easy to say that they reflect a centuries-old pioneer mentality, it is a bit more complex than that: the legality and regulation of those rights took decades to solve, and I think the Federal inter-state committee (because the Colorado is a multi-state issue, of course) that was put together to just that only reached a final solution sometime in the 60s or 70s? --at least 70 years after the committee was authorized, if I recall correctly. The central fault of these rights is that they are tied to a then-measured and then-expected water flow of the Colorado, regardless of future pull (even though upstream rights are far more lucrative and take precedence.)

That is one part of this problem. The other is that these farmers refuse to improve their tech. They are wasteful, greedy, lazy motherfuckers as far as I can tell. I thought industry was supposed to "adapt or perish." These assholes seem content with living off of 70+ year old irrigation techniques and refuse to improve. I mean, "the water is free as ordained by God!" so why wouldn't they think differently?

 

[Muse]

farmers...these assholes seem content with living off of 70+ year old irrigation techniques and refuse to improve. I mean, "the water is free as ordained by God!" so why wouldn't they think differently?

The articles I've been reading say that farmers (maybe not all, but a lot) are getting a fraction of the water they used to get. Maybe 1/2. Those guys have to do something to adapt. I'd think that some of them are thinking, trying to be creative. The guys who have take all you want guarantees from 1910 or whatever, they hope that continues to work, but I don't see that happening if this drought continues a few more years.

 

[Ns1]

The articles I've been reading say that farmers (maybe not all, but a lot) are getting a fraction of the water they used to get. Maybe 1/2. Those guys have to do something to adapt. I'd think that some of them are thinking, trying to be creative. The guys who have take all you want guarantees from 1910 or whatever, they hope that continues to work, but I don't see that happening if this drought continues a few more years.

their strategy was to dig more holes in the ground. short sighted, to say the least.

 

[Ruptga]

their strategy was to dig more holes in the ground. short sighted, to say the least.

That and spend money on ad campaigns and lobbying.

 

[zinfamous]

The articles I've been reading say that farmers (maybe not all, but a lot) are getting a fraction of the water they used to get. Maybe 1/2. Those guys have to do something to adapt. I'd think that some of them are thinking, trying to be creative. The guys who have take all you want guarantees from 1910 or whatever, they hope that continues to work, but I don't see that happening if this drought continues a few more years.

They're getting a fraction of the water they used to because the river that they have depended on, for generations, seems to have "run out" when it gets to them..after those with longer rights were pulling more and more and more, further upstream. Holy shit, you think, Cletus? What a shock!

that's exactly the point.

All of them, even those "getting screwed now!" are fucking idiots. They have long failed to understand and accept simple concepts--the most fundamental concept to their industry regarding water flow and future use--and are bitching and moaning and begging for yet more handouts because "we deserve it!"

Fuck 'em. I don't care if food gets more expensive for several years. Those asshats need to learn and the market needs to adjust in such a way that their tired, useless gene pool is purged from the industry and we have a completely new paradigm of smart sustainability to replace them.


seriously: fuck them.

Brown pisses me off, and I really used to like the guy. He more or less single-handedly fixed this state in a small number of years, and I didn't even mind when he screwed all of UC in the ass for 8 years (this directly effects me), but his complete lack of balls and brains when it comes to the water problem and the useless people planting almonds in dust pockets is inexcusable.

 

[Ns1]

And that fucking train to nowhere.

 

[Phoenix86]

They're getting a fraction of the water they used to because the river that they have depended on, for generations, seems to have "run out" when it gets to them..after those with longer rights were pulling more and more and more, further upstream. Holy shit, you think, Cletus? What a shock!

that's exactly the point.

What comical is their initial stance was: I have the rights to all the water from this well. Government needs to stay out of my business.

Now it's: Why is there no water in my well? I need government to manage everyone else's water rights, as long as they stay out of my business.

I can't imagine a more childish approach to take.

 

[DCal430]

One of the biggest waste of water in agriculture is the fact that about 25% of of the food grown is trashed before it goes to the market, because consumers won't buy imperfect looking fruits and veggies.

 

[NutBucket]

Does it get trashed or is that stuff that ends up in processed foods, dog food, feed, etc?

 

[NutBucket]

Brown pisses me off, and I really used to like the guy. He more or less single-handedly fixed this state in a small number of years, and I didn't even mind when he screwed all of UC in the ass for 8 years (this directly effects me), but his complete lack of balls and brains when it comes to the water problem and the useless people planting almonds in dust pockets is inexcusable.

Are you allowed to have this opinion living in the Bay Area?

 

[DCal430]

Does it get trashed or is that stuff that ends up in processed foods, dog food, feed, etc?

No it goes to the landfill.

 

[kranky]

What comical is their initial stance was: I have the rights to all the water from this well. Government needs to stay out of my business.

Now it's: Why is there no water in my well? I need government to manage everyone else's water rights, as long as they stay out of my business.

I can't imagine a more childish approach to take.

That was my take on it also, but I was sure I just didn't understand the situation sufficiently.

 

[DCal430]

The problem is most farmers only pay for wells. The water is "free".

It takes electricity to pump the water, it is very costly to pump ground water. So farmers can't just pump away and pay nothing.

 

[SAWYER]

Is there an estimated date where it will be a complete emergency if nothing changes?