Cagematch: Ron Paul's two views - wacky or sane?

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BeauJangles

Lifer
Aug 26, 2001
13,941
1
0
Originally posted by: Mavtek3100
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
Originally posted by: Mavtek3100
So blinderbomber's conclusion is that he agrees that our own intervention is what allowed Hitler to come to power, but his solution is more intervention.................

Good one......... No great one.....

No, our abandonment of Europe made it much easier for a Hitler-like character to arise in Germany and for another World War.

WE, the United States, did not play a big role in the rise or non-rise (if you will) of Hitler. We were fringe players. Lay the blame at the feet of the French and British who first wrote a treaty that was too harsh, and then refused to enforce it.

So it was someone else's intervention combined with our own? Yet again you advocate more intervention.

Wasn't it Einstein who said "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is the very definition of insanity'?

Again, you're selectively interpreting history. Let's take a look back at why World War II happened.

[warning: real history content below]

Over a six week period in 1871, Germany crushed the French army. They captured Paris and their king, Wilhelm I, was crowned Emperor of Germany in the Palace of Versailles. Under the humiliating treaty the Germans forced the French to sign, they made them ceded Alsace and Lorraine to Germany and to recognize Germany's status.

Fast forward to 1900. Bismarck is no longer Chancellor of Germany and Wilhelm's son is now emperor. Germany embarks on a new policy, Weltpolitik, which encourages Germany to consider its global position. Germany had long been ostracized by the other Great Powers (Britain, France, and Russia). She had no overseas colonies, she was surrounded by enemies and had no secured international trade lanes. These tensions built within Germany.

On top of the economic situation, the German High Command also believed that Germany was growing weaker relative to her enemies. Her closest ally, Austria-Hungry, was rocked by a few waves of nationalism and many within Germany believed she would soon collapse. Germany's chance to secure itself a place in the sun was fading.

The outbreak of World War I is incredibly complex, and I'd be happy to break it down for you in another post, but for now it's sufficient to say that Germany pushed the world to the brink of war and then, because of systemic and strategic realities, the whole situation collapsed into a World War.

[warning: end of real history content]

By 1918, Germany had not been military defeated. Her lines had been pushed back and she was certainly on the brink of collapse, but, when the armistice was signed, Germany's soldiers marched back into the country intact.

Now everyone had to decide how to 'deal' with Germany and how to make sure another such war would never happen. Many proposals were heard. Some called for Germany's economic might to be smashed and that she would never again be allowed to industrialize. Others called for the division of the country. What was settled upon were military restrictions, a partition of some territory, and reparations to help northeastern France recover from devastation.

They also established a League of Nations to hear grievances and try to resolve problems, like Germany's original goals, without violence. Unfortunately, this didn't work. The treaty went fine until the economic collapse and, once that happened, the stage was set for Hitler.

How this constitutes "interventionism" in your mind is beyond me. Germany had fundamental desires that were not settled after World War I and it was a LACK of interventionism in the 1930s that allowed Hitler to maintain his power.

Again, US intervention or lack of intervention was NOT a big factor in this situation. The biggest contribution the US made were The League of Nations and the adherence to the 14 Points.

edit: so you think that because Britain, France, and the US forced Germany to sign a treaty in 1918 they were being interventionist? Is that what you're really arguing?
 

teclis1023

Golden Member
Jan 19, 2007
1,452
0
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edit: this is to mavtek

Well, seems like the post just above seems to answer your questions.

What is your reasoning for advocating the destruction of the Fed?
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Let me agree with a few hard facts. I would say close 70% of those bases. They arent needed and could save us tons of cash.
on what "hard facts" do you base that percentage? From where was it derived?

Was it www.pulledfromyourass.com?

Seriously... where did you get that number, and which ~490 bases do you plan to close?

Jesus Christ, not getting the fight you wanted earlier mr instigator?


Either I didn't write it correctly or you didn't read it correctly. I agree with Bamacre, but included "hard facts" as to say what I would like to see. I was only trying to give a ballpark as to what I would accept. As for which bases need to be closed? I haven't a clue where to start, but I am sure 70% could be pulled (leaving 210) without harming "national security".
But how are you "sure"? On what strategic analysis did you base your conclusions? what evidence have you been shown that closing ~490 bases would have little or no negative effect on "national security"? On what did you base this "ballpark" of yours?

My point is to demonstrate that you're pulling those numbers from your arse, and that you have not actually conducted an analysis on which to base those conclusions. You have picked a random number of bases to close, or keep, based on absolutely no data or analysis whatsoever.

I'm sorry, but your layman's gut instincts just won't cut it when you're proposing something as drastic as a total 180 degree shift in our global military strategy.

I made bold the most telling sentence in your reply...

Most telling? LOL it is my opinion.

BASED ON WHAT?! Where did you pull those very specific numbers from? What factors did you use to decide which bases to keep, and which to close down? Approximately how much money would be saved each year? How many troops would return home? etc etc etc.... FVCKING ETC!


We cannot afford to keep those bases there. You can say its needed and I'll agree some are. But you must come up with how we will fund it.
once again, is the reason for your closing of ~490 bases entirely fiscal? Yes, or no?

LOL calm down. Such a angry man.

How do you suppose we continue to finance it? How much money would be saved? Alot more saved with 210 bases rather than 700. Closing those bases is to save money and remove unneeded presence in some parts of the world.

How will we continue to pay for this? Borrow from China? Then lend it to Dictator Mushariff?
I believe that paying for our military should always remain priority #1 -- so, that said, I imagine we'd need to cut other agencies and departments. I would propose an across-the-board downsizing of every agency except the Department of Defense. Then, I would consider some closings and the reconsolidation of DoD assets on foreign soil -- after a thorough analytical study of ALL strategic factors.

Unlike you, I have no idea what final number of bases we'd end up with, or even a rough estimate; but, the net result should be an even larger, and more efficient, military.

I absolutely oppose RP's unrealistic proposal to withdraw ALL troops from ALL foreign bases without regard for the strategic consequences -- which is what makes his plans frickin loony!
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: Mavtek3100
Originally posted by: teclis1023
Originally posted by: Mavtek3100
LK you have been taken to task, you claimed the abolishment of the Fed was a loony idea. You have utterly failed at proving as to why this is such a loony notion.

Game, Set, Match.

Do you ever actually bring any content to the table, or is your game entirely made up of telling people that you've won an argument.

I've got a hint for ya - if you have to continually tell an entire forum that you're winning an argument, chances are you aren't.

The original instigation by LK was that Ron Paul was Loony because he wanted to abolish the Fed. He went on to explain what the Fed does and why it does it.

Assuming that I along with others don't know what the Fed does indeed attempt to do with the markets. I took him to task to prove how Ron Paul's argument against the Fed was loony.

Have you seen a tangible response to this appointed task? I haven't, he keeps pointing back to his original post about what the Fed is and why it exist, which is irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Is it irrelevant? there's nothing there that is irrelevant, as the existence and why it exists, is essential to RPB's assertions it should be eliminated. Furthermore, I have provided several counters to your posts, such as Mises and Friedman's computers, which you *STILL* have not addressed.

You see, all you can do is attack *me*, not my posts. That's because you lack any facts, information, or proof, beyond Friedman and Mises' basic theories and premises. This is laughably similar to every other RPB in content.

Face it, you lack any training, knowledge, or ability to form a cohesive argument when it comes to economics and finance, other than "ZOMG, MISES AND FRIEDMAN". Thus, your only counter to me is to say that my posts have no relevance to the topic.

Hah, typical and expected. Good luck in life sparky.
 

Capitalizt

Banned
Nov 28, 2004
1,513
0
0
Originally posted by: yllus
The key to rooting out Al Qaeda, then, is to deprive it of what allows it to thrive.

The key to rooting out Al Queda is to eliminate the INCENTIVE for them to attack us. Of course those at the top have firm ideological/religious beliefs that call for the destruction of the USA...but they are in the minority in these terror groups. The rank and file are not motivated by a culture war...but by what they see as an oppressive power intervening in their countries and permanently occupying muslim lands.

Do you think the average terror recruiter pulls kids off the street and says "Look, those Americans are corrupt. They eat Mcdonalds and listen to Britney Spears. Go fly 6000 miles and commit suicide against them!"

No. He simply points at the occupying army over the hill...at the sanctions that have killed hundreds of thousands of civilians...at the permanent military bases being built on holy land...and at the oil we are sucking from their deserts. He points out how we subvert and overthrow leaders we disagree with, and how we support and arm countries we like regardless of how distasteful their actions are (Israel, dictators in Pakistan, etc).

The vast majority of "terrorists" become terrorists because of what they see with their own eyes. "Corrupt American culture" might be a footnote in the terror training manual, but our interventionist foreign policy is what sparks the desire to fight America.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Here is what you need to address...

I'll start off with my traditional post.


Here's a nice dose of reality for RPbots who think the Fed is evil. Try to reply to it, if you can.


1. The Fed is *not* a private company. It operates under Congressional mandate and is owned 100% by the member banks within the system. *Every* bank that is part of the Federal Reserve system, which is more or less every bank in the country, ownes shares in that system. This includes Bank of America, JPMorgan Chase, Bank of New York Mellon, Wachovia, Washinton Mutual, LeSalle, TFC, Wells Fargo, Bank Atlantic, Commerce Bank, 5/3rd, or any other bank you can think of. Since those banks are *PUBLIC* companies, the Fed is essentially owned by *EVERYBODY* in the country.

People think that the Fed should be abolished and that Congress should take over managing the currency. Sure. Perhaps 200 years ago when we didn't vote in dipshits. However, the short-term nature of Congressional "worries" (aka, getting re-elected) and the long-term concern of managing the economy, are not congruent. Thus, the two should absolutely be delinked.

The Fed is also very secret because, if it weren't, then the markets would be extremely volatile. Looking into the Fed on a minute basis would be akin to allowing people direct access to *every* board of directors of *every* company for *every* meeting. That would introduce tremendous problems, as people tossing around ideas, problems, solutions, and long-term projections would then be prone to conjecture in the market. The financial markets would be so stutter-stopped and jagged by the news that risk would skyrocket. Asking for a lot more transparency would stifle the Fed's ability to manage thigns on a long-term basis.

The Fed pays the government more than 80bn in revenue per year. *ALL* profits go to the government. Profits are from revenues on lending money to all banks, that money is from member banks and the government. The interest charged by the Fed, from banks, is then dividended out to the member banks (they deserve return for their lending), the remainder goes to the government.

2. Get a clue about the "government". WE spend the money the way WE want it. People try to pretend that the government is not representative of us, yet we vote them in. The Fed acts in accordance with the needs of the government, which passes laws to spend. WE vote in those who pass the laws. As soon as WE learn that WE need to either cut spending or raise taxes, then WE will not have to borrow.

3. Inflation doesn't occur just because currency circulation increases. If that were the case then we'd be facing drastically increasing inflation. Money can and should grow with the economic growth of the country. The more goods, services, and wealth in the country, the more currency should be circulated. Otherwise you are in a deflationary system.

Inflation occurs for several reasons. That includes growth resulting in wage increases which then floats into the system. It's also caused by the input of foreign goods into the system, which may be increasing in price (importing inflation). There are dozens of other reasons.

4. The problem with the Fed is that it has the problem of trying to balance short-term movements with long-term projections using historical events. Anybody who is a quantitative person involved in statistics knows that history is a very imperfect predictor of the future. You are always behind the curve. When inflation finally rears it's ugly head, it's too late and you are trying to play catch-up. AFAIK the only time the Fed was able to head off inflation was the mid 90's when they did pre-emptive rate increases, which turned out to be very accurate. However, those were gut feelings, not exact data driven events.

Furthermore, economics, at it's heart, is still an art, not a science. It is impossible to gauge human psychology when it comes down to these events. Thus, managing the growth of an economy that is unpredictable and un projectionable is more or less an impossible task.

Thus, the movements of the Fed are imperfect. Additionally, they will never be popular because everybody wants growth to be predictable. However, irrational exuberance, irrational pessimism, and the bubble mindset make it impossible to predict exactly how to stimulate or reign in the economy.

Additionally, the very nature of the Fed is to try to be as hands-off as possible without letting the economy run rampant. However, the ability of the economy to go through boom and busts have led to some of the greatest inventions and times of innovation and genius this country has ever seen. This destructive creativism is essential to continuing a modern country.

Blame the Fed all you want for the problems. However, until you come up with a viable and implementable solution, then shut the fuck up. I am sure some dipshit will go on and on about gold. But guess what? Gold is a commodity that is prone to speculation worse than a currency. It's deflationary in nature. It's inflexible, as the 1930's proved since *ALL* countries still o nthe gold standard took, on average, about 5 more years to even begin to recover.

Our currency is backed by something a lot less problematic, the US economy, the US military, and US innovation. It may not be fungible like gold, but is sure as hell gives you a vested interest.



In conclusion, let me ask people this. If the Fed, with a Fiat currency, were so evil and the root of all inflation, then how was inflation caused in the 1960s and 1970s when the Fed had far less control over rates. It had far less power to put bills into the market. The government had essentially no debt and the amount of currency into circulation. How then, was the Fed able to raise rates and get inflation under control so quickly? I thought the Fed was evil and wanted inflation?

What then, about years prior to that? When inflation was unpredictable, wild, high, low, inflationary, deflationary, and the economy was much more difficult to manage? Was that such a great time then? Additionally, you are talking about 100 years ago when managing an economy 1/200th the size was relatively easy. Now, using the same system, woudl be impossible and would lead to our collapse.

You people are so f'ing ignorant of the facts of the Fed, it's purpose, economcis, and above all, HISTORY and HUMAN PSYCHOLOGY.


I edited out the "insulting" parts so RPBs don't get their undies in a bunch.


Well don't we need to argue the positions of those economists as those are the positions that Ron Paul is advocating? In order to do so don't you agree that you need to understand their alternatives, it will be hard for me to establish a basis of for debate if the person I'm debating doesn't understand the alternative I'm advocating for. I'm simply attempting to ascertain if you have the basis for both understandings before engaging in a debate with someone who doesn't understand the alternative theories we're supposed to be debating.

Which I replied with

No, you are throwing out names and theories rather than hard ideas. I understand fully what they propose, but not everybody does. Ever notice that I explain things in real terms? Is it for your benefit, or everybody elses?

Try to explain yourself and put it into an actionable plan, not just toss out two names.

I don't go to work and say. "Hey, I think we should do a Greg Pelzer for this deal, which perfectly defines the structure of the transaction". No, I create a term sheet, listing my own terms, in my own words, and how I plan to carry them out.

I'd love to know what world you live in defines action plans by the names of the people who created a theory, which may or may not be comletely applicable to your idea.

here is what you have.


Yes and what Mises and to a lesser degree Friedman advocated is letting the market or a computer decide the basis of currency performance. Friedman being the advocate for "artificial intelligence" of course Friedman said no man should have this power, which I agree with that. Mises agreed too, but Mises said no computer should have that power either.

Which I replied and you never countered.

Then what is your solution?

Computers fail in that they still depend on man to program them, so their conclusion is false.


Now we have

LK as far as an actionable plan to abolish the Federal Reserve I have no idea why you expect me to have such a thing at my disposal, I didn't realize that was the premise of the topic at hand. I thought the premise was to defend why such a proposal was not only reasonable but attainable? You were the one who claimed it be loony?

Which I replied with this, where you still have no plan.

ROFL, so you think the system sucks, have no alternative, have no plan, have nothing except for a theory as to why the Fed should be run by computers.

Are you fucking kidding me?

If I think an idea sucks at work, I present a viable alternative and how to achieve it. Not a theory on why it sucks, drop a few names, be countered that those theories/names suck, and move on.

Sorry, you wonder why RP can't get more than 10% of the vote? It's because he, like you guys, have no viable alternatives. All you can toss around is names and theories, nothing that works, nothing that's actionable, nothing that's viable.

Finally, there is this.


And you still haven't countered my first post, nor replied to my reply about computers.

But I'll craft this into my first post, I expect you to reply to it and the first post since I am accommodating your laziness.


1. The Fed shouldn't be abolished because it's essential to have a central banking authority to keep control over the proper flow of funds through the economy, the amount of currency in the economy, and the overall liquidity of the economy.

2. A hard currency is deflationary by nature. Furthermore, it doesn't allow #1 to exist, since being able to manage the liquidity of the economy and control the "smoothness" of the economy cannot exist under a hard currency.

3. A fed must exist because without a central bank controling the liquidity, runs on banks and panics are rampant, see CitizenKane's post in the other thread, which pointed out several panics. Some of those panics were only prevented by bankers themselves, such as JP Morgan.

4. The Fed is not a private entity and has quarterly and annually audited financials that are presented to Congress and the President. THe President appoints the Governors that control the fed and he can remove them at any time. Thus, oversight is there and can be undertaken at any time.

5. Having Congress or any other non-quasi-independent authority control the monetary supply will only result in short-term thinking.

6. A measured amount of expected and managed interest is *good*, because it maintains projections and reduces variability. It allows businesses, lenders, financiers, and the capital markets in general to plan investments, hirings/firings, and economic stability. In the times before the Fed, as this country was becoming more integrated, it was plagued by bank runs, rampant inflation or deflation, all inhibiting the growth of the country.

7. Competing currencies is a horrible idea. It results in a dis-aggregated economy, further reducing predictability and reducing the desire to invest when times are uncertain. Furthermore, competing currencies allow for arbitrage opportunities, uncertainty of the banks, added complexity, and reduced liquidity and transparency.

All of those are reasons why gettng rid of the Fed, or other RPB ideas, are loony.


There, there is 7 points, PLUS my original post to work from. I fully expect you to address them, point by point. Failure to do so is admittance of defeat. I fully expect a post of no less than the length of my first post, otherwise you have not articulated your ideas thoroughly or completely. Mention of Mises or Friedman shouldn't be considered as an effective post, since it details nothing but somebody else's idea. Unlike mine, which detail my own thoughts, ideas, conclusions, and facts.

I am really looking forward to this, as it will be the first time any RPB has gone anywhere with me. Don't let me, or Ron Paul, down.


Get to work sparky. Point by point, answer them or submit. Number them so I can rebut easily.


Edit, please reply to CitizenKain's post too.

Originally posted by: CitizenKain
Originally posted by: Mavtek3100
I'll start with no boom-busts since the big busts called a depression. Ugh..... Well 1st there was a boom then there was the depression and as I already pointed out and as even Ben Bernanke has admitted the depression was indeed the fault of the Federal Reserve. Milton Friedman and the worlds leading economists all agree, the Fed was the leading cause of the Depression. I digress, so what you are saying the great "Boom" of the 1950's didn't happen. You know the "Baby boom"? I guess you don't realize that was a financial "boom" as well? Then of course you had the oil crisis in the mid 70's I guess you're saying that wasn't a "bust". Then directly after that you had a boom then in the mid 80's you had another bust with the savings and loan shake up. Then we boomed again and yet one more time during G H Bush we had another bust. After that small bust Clinton balanced the budget and technology got cool for everyone and we had a boom and of course in 01 we had a big bust. Now we have a boom for a very long time with the wonderful Fed providing such unbelievably candified rates for every bank who is FDIC insured gets damn near free money, all in the name of stimulating the boom.
Now of course we're going to have a nice big bust on our hands, oh boy. Yep I see what you're saying, no boom-busts since the depression.... UGH

Lets look at actual busts, ones that devastated the country for years.
Lets start with:
Panic of 1819
Black Friday 1869
Panic of 1873
Panic of 1907

Those are boom / bust cycles.


Originally posted by: Mavtek3100
Ugh and you bring World War 2 up as if we actually were interventionist. We were attacked in World War 2, maybe you just forgot. It was our non-intervention policy that made us the super nation we are now after ww2. Unfortunately it was our intervention throughout Germany and Europe that literally created Hitler's demonic Reich. Time to read some history I think.

When the point goes sailing over your head, do you wave it as it goes by?
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
Originally posted by: palehorse74
The United States Department of Defense defines "power projection" as the following:

The ability of a nation to apply all or some of its elements of national power - political, economic, informational, or military - to rapidly and effectively deploy and sustain forces in and from multiple dispersed locations to respond to crises, to contribute to deterrence, and to enhance regional stability.

As a challenge to the RP camp, please explain to me how the above strategy of power projection is flawed, and present your case for bringing EVERY troop and piece of equipment back to the continental United States.

I will formulate a thorough rebuttal based on your response.

Is it flawed?

I think the substance of your question is really why does RP not subscribe to the "projection of power" philosophy?

From what I can tell listening to RP he simply has a different philosophy. Think back to the earlier days of this country, were we engaged in projecting power? No.

We did have diplomatic relations, and we did use military force when needed (generally to protect Americans when attacked, even if abroad). But we didn't go around "projecting power" and trying to be the world's policeman.

I find RP to be a what one might call an "American Fundamentailst" - he prefers a vision of this country more like we had at our founding. I don't what, or if, there is a proper term for this view. Maybe an "originalist"? I suppose a modern-day example of this as regards foreign policy is the famous Swiss neutrality.

But this also ties in with his fiscal view - these efforts are very expensive, lots of $'s. And, many believe our meddling in other's affairs causes resentment & problems.

So, bringing the troops home is not a policy per se, but a suggestion on how to begin implementing his foreign and fiscal policies.

1) Elminate the Fed 2) Bring all troops home

I've addressed the #2 "bring the troops home" thingy. While I do not agree with him about the fed, this is another of his suggestions on how to begin implementing his fiscal policy of (major) restraint on spending. I suspect it's also tied to his policy of a much more limited federal government. Again, his view on the federal gov seems an awful lot like that of our Founding Fathers. His Constitutional views strike many as loony, but in fact are the standard interpretations of the Constitution prior to the adoption of the 14th Amendment at (about) 1868.

So, elimination of the fed and pulling back troops aren't policies in themselves, rather they are two suggested steps to begin implenting his policies of:

1. Benign foreign policy
2. (Major) Fiscal restraint policy
3. (Massively) Limited federal gov. policy

Fern
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: Capitalizt
Originally posted by: yllus
The key to rooting out Al Qaeda, then, is to deprive it of what allows it to thrive.

The key to rooting out Al Queda is to eliminate the INCENTIVE for them to attack us. Of course those at the top have firm ideological/religious beliefs that call for the destruction of the USA...but they are in the minority in these terror groups. The rank and file are not motivated by a culture war...but by what they see as an oppressive power intervening in their countries and permanently occupying muslim lands.

Do you think the average terror recruiter pulls kids off the street and says "Look, those Americans are corrupt. They eat Mcdonalds and listen to Britney Spears. Go fly 6000 miles and commit suicide against them!"

No. He simply points at the occupying army over the hill...at the sanctions that have killed hundreds of thousands of civilians...at the permanent military bases being built on holy land...and at the oil we are sucking from their deserts. He points out how we subvert and overthrow leaders we disagree with, and how we support and arm countries we like regardless of how distasteful their actions are (Israel, dictators in Pakistan, etc).

The vast majority of "terrorists" become terrorists because of what they see with their own eyes. "Corrupt American culture" might be a footnote in the terror training manual, but our interventionist foreign policy is what sparks the desire to fight America.


I hope you understand AQ et al hate America because we are 1. not muslim, and 2. a democracy...right?
 

NoStateofMind

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 2005
9,711
6
76
Originally posted by: palehorse74
I believe that paying for our military should always remain priority #1 -- so, that said, I imagine we'd need to cut other agencies and departments. I would propose an across-the-board downsizing of every agency except the Department of Defense. Then, I would consider some closings and the reconsolidation of DoD assets on foreign soil -- after a thorough analytical study of ALL strategic factors.

Unlike you, I have no idea what final number of bases we'd end up with, or even a rough estimate; but, the net result should be an even larger, and more efficient, military.

I absolutely oppose RP's unrealistic proposal to withdraw ALL troops from ALL foreign bases without regard for the strategic consequences -- which is what makes his plans frickin loony!

LOL I'm not voting for you :laugh:

You bring up an active way of cutting spending and thats good. But we need to get into specifics in order to understand exactly what needs to be cut. I will not condone increasing the size of military, however, military should not be removed completely.
 

Mavtek3100

Senior member
Jan 15, 2008
524
0
0
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: Mavtek3100
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: Mavtek3100
LK you have been taken to task, you claimed the abolishment of the Fed was a loony idea. You have utterly failed at proving as to why this is such a loony notion.

Game, Set, Match.

My first post? Every post that follows? Where's your detailed posts? All you have done is drop 2 names and something stupid about computers which I already countered.

Yeah, keep thinking that sparky. Your peeps are getting fucking owned in this thread.

How very mature of you, owned, "bitchslapped". Amazing how it is the instigator of the thread who claims I'm being "owned" not a 3rd party or mod.

You have unequivocally never proven how abolishing the Fed is Loony, which is in fact your entire premise, yet somehow you believe you are winning.............

And you still haven't countered my first post, nor replied to my reply about computers.

But I'll craft this into my first post, I expect you to reply to it and the first post since I am accommodating your laziness.


1. The Fed shouldn't be abolished because it's essential to have a central banking authority to keep control over the proper flow of funds through the economy, the amount of currency in the economy, and the overall liquidity of the economy.

Essential? In who's opinion? Yours? Acclaimed economists disagree.

2. A hard currency is deflationary by nature. Furthermore, it doesn't allow #1 to exist, since being able to manage the liquidity of the economy and control the "smoothness" of the economy cannot exist under a hard currency.

Oh and I guess it is in your opinion and you must be correct that this is the proper way to handle the economy. I counter that Hard currency is not deflationary as assets grow with expansion of the populace. As the populace increases, work thus assets increase and the markets will iron out the smoothness of inflation or deflation.

3. A fed must exist because without a central bank controling the liquidity, runs on banks and panics are rampant, see CitizenKane's post in the other thread, which pointed out several panics. Some of those panics were only prevented by bankers themselves, such as JP Morgan.

"Must" accusatory and opinionated I might add, is definitely not a factual statement. There is no historical reference to come to this arbitrary conclusion that the "Fed" is indeed the only solution to runs and panics

4. The Fed is not a private entity and has quarterly and annually audited financials that are presented to Congress and the President. THe President appoints the Governors that control the fed and he can remove them at any time. Thus, oversight is there and can be undertaken at any time.

Who cares, the debate is over it's existence and the need for it at all, not whether it's private/public or otherwise. Remember it's your premise it's loony to suggest we don't need it at all, not whether it exist in the 1st place.

5. Having Congress or any other non-quasi-independent authority control the monetary supply will only result in short-term thinking.

So what does this have do with anything? Why does this bolster your premise that abolishment of the Fed is indeed loony?

6. A measured amount of expected and managed interest is *good*, because it maintains projections and reduces variability. It allows businesses, lenders, financiers, and the capital markets in general to plan investments, hirings/firings, and economic stability. In the times before the Fed, as this country was becoming more integrated, it was plagued by bank runs, rampant inflation or deflation, all inhibiting the growth of the country.

This is essentially a repeat of your 3rd point. It does not prove that another method of currency management is loony or incorrect in anyway.

7. Competing currencies is a horrible idea. It results in a dis-aggregated economy, further reducing predictability and reducing the desire to invest when times are uncertain. Furthermore, competing currencies allow for arbitrage opportunities, uncertainty of the banks, added complexity, and reduced liquidity and transparency.

I've already responded this notion. Who is to say we don't need more uncertainty? I'll just copy/paste what I've already stated:

You see and that is not necessarily a bad thing. Reduced investing means more money will be used for consumption. There's an equal and opposite reaction. Mises advocating that investing allows companies to prop themselves up in the event of stagnation, it takes the burden of responsibility from the company and puts it on the investors. Furthermore I'd love your explanation on why a competing currency reduces transparency or in our wonderful world of computers adds unwarranted complexity.


All of those are reasons why gettng rid of the Fed, or other RPB ideas, are loony.

No they are not, those are reasons why the Fed exists, they have absolutely nothing to do with Ron Paul or his ideas on monetary policy.


There, there is 7 points, PLUS my original post to work from. I fully expect you to address them, point by point. Failure to do so is admittance of defeat. I fully expect a post of no less than the length of my first post, otherwise you have not articulated your ideas thoroughly or completely. Mention of Mises or Friedman shouldn't be considered as an effective post, since it details nothing but somebody else's idea. Unlike mine, which detail my own thoughts, ideas, conclusions, and facts.

I am really looking forward to this, as it will be the first time any RPB has gone anywhere with me. Don't let me, or Ron Paul, down.

Now again, please explain how Ron Paul's idea is indeed Loony, as thus far you have failed to do so.
 
Feb 6, 2007
16,432
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Originally posted by: Mavtek3100
LK you have been taken to task, you claimed the abolishment of the Fed was a loony idea. You have utterly failed at proving as to why this is such a loony notion.

Game, Set, Match.

Legend and palehorse keep responding to you with actual arguments. You respond by repeating the names Friedman and Mises and overusing the word loony. You have yet to form a single, coherent argument. A name is not an argument. Here's an example of an argument:

I don't approve of the way the Federal Reserve is currently structured or administered. I believe that greater oversight is needed; the policies concerning closed-door meetings regarding the administration of the very backbone of our economy troubles me greatly. I understand that the Federal Reserve has an auditing system in place, but it is inadequate in addressing concerns about why one of the most important institutions for regulating the US economy is run behind a veil of absolute secrecy. Friedman and Mises have expanded on this, through <here is where you would lay out specifically what Friedman or Mises say and how it actually supports your argument; I'm not familiar with them, so I'm not going to bother>. Using these ideas we could craft an agency to help maintain our economy without any of the problems that fundamentally plague a central bank.

This is strictly an example of how to craft an argument; I don't agree with a single thing I just wrote. But you start with a premise: the federal reserve is bad. You then offer explanations as to why: it is secretive and not public. Then you offer supporting evidence or expert testimony: these people agree. Then you offer an alternative: here's what we should have instead. When someone raises a point of refutation, you need to address it.

You have utterly failed to address a single point raised by legend or palehorse, and it's making you look like a complete fool. And - and this is hugely important, so pay attention - when you look like a complete fool while campaigning for a candidate, it makes potentially undecided voters think, "wow, that candidate is supported by complete fools. I want nothing to do with him/her." This is the problem with Ron Paul supporters that I've observed (not all of them, but the more vocal ones); you latch on to a talking point, but you don't bother to learn any of the supporting details or arguments in opposition. When anyone argues against you, you're at a complete loss to argue logically, because you have absolutely no background information beyond what you read on RP's website. You're left spouting the same thing over and over and over, which doesn't actually address any of the arguments against your position, and end up looking like a complete tool. I don't want to vote for your candidate because you are a complete idiot and you support him.

You're doing Ron Paul a disservice by coming on to message boards like this and acting the way you do, which leads me tot hink that you aren't actually a Ron Paul supporter at all, but some new form of viral marketing for competing candidates. But that's silly because what candidate is really concerned about Ron Paul? I have no idea what game you're playing at, but you're not exactly winning the hearts and minds of the populace.
 

Mavtek3100

Senior member
Jan 15, 2008
524
0
0
BTW LK I didn't imply that the Fed Sucks, I was implying that Freidman stated it as such. Now to work in the real world for a while.
 

BeauJangles

Lifer
Aug 26, 2001
13,941
1
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Originally posted by: Mavtek3100
Now again, please explain how Ron Paul's idea is indeed Loony, as thus far you have failed to do so.

The Federal Reserve has seen this country through the single longest period of prosperity in our history. Why should we abandon it? The burden of proof should rest with Ron Paul. I haven't heard a single reason why we should abandon the system we have besides the canned "because the dollar is tanking" response.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
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Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Originally posted by: palehorse74
I believe that paying for our military should always remain priority #1 -- so, that said, I imagine we'd need to cut other agencies and departments. I would propose an across-the-board downsizing of every agency except the Department of Defense. Then, I would consider some closings and the reconsolidation of DoD assets on foreign soil -- after a thorough analytical study of ALL strategic factors.

Unlike you, I have no idea what final number of bases we'd end up with, or even a rough estimate; but, the net result should be an even larger, and more efficient, military.

I absolutely oppose RP's unrealistic proposal to withdraw ALL troops from ALL foreign bases without regard for the strategic consequences -- which is what makes his plans frickin loony!

LOL I'm not voting for you :laugh:

You bring up an active way of cutting spending and thats good. But we need to get into specifics in order to understand exactly what needs to be cut. I will not condone increasing the size of military, however, military should not be removed completely.
Speaking of specifics... I still havent seen anyone answer these direct questions:
1) roughly how much money would we save, over time, if we were to close down operations at all 700 foreign bases? how about only 100? 200? 300? etc?

2) What impacts will the closings have on global security and stability? For simplicity's sake, break it down by major regions, or according to our current global Commands. (PACCOM, SOUTHCOM, AFRICOM, CENTCOM, etc)

3) Where will we house all of the troops and equipment back in CONUS? What will they do in their downtime? If you plan to cut troop levels, what size Army, Navy, USAF, and Marine components do you foresee? What will the hundreds of thousands of troops do once they've been laid off?

4) Does this include the NAVY's global operations and foreign bases with ports? Should they stop patrolling the worlds' oceans? What effect will doing so have on the safety of the shipping lanes? How will stopping their missions effect trade?

5) What about those troops who are overseas at the request of a foreign host nation?

6) Do you have the answer to ANY of these questions? Has RP thought ANY of this out beyond the main bullet points?!?
I'll be over here waiting...
 

Mavtek3100

Senior member
Jan 15, 2008
524
0
0
Atomic LK has explained over and over why the Fed exists, not why the idea of it's abolishment is loony. As far as Palehorse, sigh.... One thing at a time.
 

NoStateofMind

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 2005
9,711
6
76
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Originally posted by: palehorse74
I believe that paying for our military should always remain priority #1 -- so, that said, I imagine we'd need to cut other agencies and departments. I would propose an across-the-board downsizing of every agency except the Department of Defense. Then, I would consider some closings and the reconsolidation of DoD assets on foreign soil -- after a thorough analytical study of ALL strategic factors.

Unlike you, I have no idea what final number of bases we'd end up with, or even a rough estimate; but, the net result should be an even larger, and more efficient, military.

I absolutely oppose RP's unrealistic proposal to withdraw ALL troops from ALL foreign bases without regard for the strategic consequences -- which is what makes his plans frickin loony!

LOL I'm not voting for you :laugh:

You bring up an active way of cutting spending and thats good. But we need to get into specifics in order to understand exactly what needs to be cut. I will not condone increasing the size of military, however, military should not be removed completely.
Speaking of specifics... I still havent seen anyone answer these direct questions:
1) roughly how much money would we save, over time, if we were to close down operations at all 700 foreign bases? how about only 100? 200? 300? etc?

2) What impacts will the closings have on global security and stability? For simplicity's sake, break it down by major regions, or according to our current global Commands. (PACCOM, SOUTHCOM, AFRICOM, CENTCOM, etc)

3) Where will we house all of the troops and equipment back in CONUS? What will they do in their downtime? If you plan to cut troop levels, what size Army, Navy, USAF, and Marine components do you foresee? What will the hundreds of thousands of troops do once they've been laid off?

4) Does this include the NAVY's global operations and foreign bases with ports? Should they stop patrolling the worlds' oceans? What effect will doing so have on the safety of the shipping lanes? How will stopping their missions effect trade?

5) What about those troops who are overseas at the request of a foreign host nation?

6) Do you have the answer to ANY of these questions? Has RP thought ANY of this out beyond the main bullet points?!?
I'll be over here waiting...

Other than militarily speaking, what would you consider cutting and by how much?
 

teclis1023

Golden Member
Jan 19, 2007
1,452
0
71
Atomic Playboy hit the nail on the head.

Please, enlighten those of us who are far too dimwitted to read your mind. What are the short-term and long-term benefits of doing away with the Fed? What about the DHS? CIA?
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: Mavtek3100

1. And others agree completely. We can bandy theories and observation all day, how about we talk about reality. It's essential to any investments. You keep pointing to theory and not to fact. If I go ahead and put a $500MM warehouse line into place for a leasing company, I need to know whether my pricing is correct, what will happen to the economy, and what happens to inflation/deflation. All of that is covered by the Fed, as it keeps control over these things within a narrow band. From a capital markets perspective and from an international investing perspective, that's great.

For example, would you be a person who would have invested in Argentina 8 years ago? Russia 10 years ago? Brazil before their crisis? How about Venezuela now?

2. Just like how the markets ironed them out before the Fed? Ever look at the runs on the banks and the standard deviation of inflation and deflation? A lot of movement there. Furthermore, hard assets are deflationary, especially since commodities like gold are subject to market manipulations, changes in supply or demand, and other macro-effects, all of which create problems. Furthermore, as the economy grows larger and the desire to keep the value of the currency stable, more money must be printed and more assets acquired. As such, an asset like gold will become horded and price will go up, this will happen to anything if it's grain or gold.


3. How is not a factual statement? Other countries that don't have a CB are not doing so hot, which is why everybody has one. If the Fed isn't needed then provide evidence to the contrary and a plan for how it would work.

4. Part of the RPB's arguemnt is that it is a private entity that has control over everything. This is, in fact, false and loony to believe in.

5. Again, it's a major assertion that it there is no oversight, there is and it's reasonably strong. Getting rid of the Fed from this premise is loony.

6. How can you manage a currency if it is pegged to something solid? Devaluing it? Isn't that where we are now?

7. This really reminds me of Good Will Hunting, where the fucking book quoting prick has no ideas of his own, thus he has to quote a book, but anyway. What you don't get is that investing isn't really just us, but also the world. There's a reason why we have what we have and it's not just because of domestic investors. Furthermore, the lack of investing won't always result in consumption, since deposits or even hiding money in the bed, won't result in the desire to invest.

If investors cut off investing because they aren't certain about the future, they don't always consume more. There's reams of proof to back this up. If anything they consume less, save more. Since businesses aren't unsure of the future they don't expand. This is what contracts the economy.


8. Competing currencies. So, everybody from a Fed reserve bank, to stock exchanges, to commodity exchanges, down to your pig farmer and convenience store owner need to have conversion computers? They all need to be linked, instantaneously, to an overall system of keeping track of the current relative valuations.

Wow, great idea. Lots of opportunity for arbitrage. What modern economy allows that to a large extent? Please state specific examples.

Please, for simplicity sake, break out each question from my post and number them. You still haven't addressed my first post, or any succeeding ones. Furthermore, all of those are reasons why he is loony.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: Mavtek3100
Atomic LK has explained over and over why the Fed exists, not why the idea of it's abolishment is loony. As far as Palehorse, sigh.... One thing at a time.

The existence of the Fed is proof why getting rid of it is loony. Loonies create dozens of reasons, all of which I have countered and which are in each one of those posts you refuse to acknowledge. And, as blinderbomber just stated, it's worked very well over its existence.

See, you hinge your hopes on semantics and nothing else. It's a failing exercise. The sum of my points highlights why the idea is loony, you just fail to see it nor do you want to.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: teclis1023
Atomic Playboy hit the nail on the head.

Please, enlighten those of us who are far too dimwitted to read your mind. What are the short-term and long-term benefits of doing away with the Fed? What about the DHS? CIA?

Because...MISES AND FRIEDMAN SAYS SO!

This guy is fricking dense. All he can do is say two guys say so, or that other economists say so. Not that he has any ideas for a better plan, nor how the Fed is evil, or how it's policies are bad. The rest of the RPBs point to conspiratorial things, all of which I have countered.

Good luck getting a good answer though, nobody else has and I doubt you will.
 

NoStateofMind

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 2005
9,711
6
76
LegendKiller, you may find this interesting ;)

The Political and Economic Agenda for a Real Gold Standard

Summary:

One of the basic insights of the great Austrian economists, both Carl Menger and Ludwig von Mises, is that money emerged by evolution from the market process. It was not invented by governments. There are basic economic forces today that are contributing to the further evolution of the monetary system, and there is a political strategy that I believe will make it possible to liberate those forces and restore the monetary role for gold. Because of the current economic and political climate, it is important to understand what we can do ? and what we cannot hope to do in the short run.

by Ron Paul, Dr. January 17, 1985

The Political Climate for Reform

In his 1952 epilogue to The Theory of Money and Credit, Mises included a section with the title, "The United States' Return to a Sound Currency." The Korean War inflation was fresh in most people's minds that year, when Mises prepared his proposal. Food prices in 1951 had jumped 11.1 percent, with consumer prices in general jumping 7.9 percent. Yet by the mid-1950s, the public interest in monetary reform seemed to abate. Changes in the consumer price index were in the vicinity of 1 percent per year for the next decade, and food prices even declined in 1952?53.

The political and economic agenda for creating a real gold standard in the United States ? a new international gold standard led by monetary reform in this country ? depends very much upon the climate of political and economic opinion. If the Korean War inflation had continued, I believe Ludwig von Mises's proposal would have received much wider attention.

My belief that periods of monetary disorder always focus attention on gold as the solution is strengthened by the recent occasion of a congressionally mandated Gold Commission, on which I was proud to serve. It was created in response to the high rates of inflation in the late 1970s and a rising cry from the general public to restore gold to its rightful monetary role.

Most people know of the Gold Commission merely what the press reported ? that it rejected a return to the gold standard. I believe the true significance of the Gold Commission is that the politicians and central bankers were so alarmed at such a thing that they made sure it was packed by an array of Keynesians and monetarists. These advocates of the established institutions and arrangements certainly don't want any role for gold to threaten their cozy theories about scientific monetary management and macroeconomic planning.

The dramatic reduction in average price increases during the recent recession has once again diverted attention from fundamental monetary reform, but it is clear to me that our present unstable arrangement will break down once more, and there will be another Gold Commission in the future.



The Mises Proposal

I want briefly to review the plan Mises described, and then set down the steps I believe would achieve his goal. Any differences in the proposals I am supporting in Congress from the plan he described in 1952 are based on my judgments about the progressive deterioration in our monetary and fiscal system during the intervening thirty years and the politics of the task today.

In The Theory of Money and Credit, Mises wrote, "The first step must be a radical and unconditional abandonment of any further inflation." Although I strongly support this objective, I do not believe it would ever be possible to achieve such a requirement if we place it as "the first step."

Banishing inflation is, in fact, the ultimate objective we expect to achieve by creating a new gold standard. The US government has moved so far in the direction of fiscal irresponsibility that the reform of our basic monetary and financial institutions has become much more complex. For political reasons, ending inflation cannot be the "first" step. We must subdivide it into many smaller preparatory steps even to approach the task.

Happily, the second step that Mises described has already been achieved: "All restrictions on trading and holding gold must be repealed."

In January 1975 it became legal for Americans to own and trade gold, and in 1977 the remaining prohibitions on gold clauses in contracts were repealed. In my view, this restoration of liberty is the most important change in circumstances since 1952, and the one condition that is today most favorable to the restoration of gold to its proper monetary role.

One of the points on which Mises was adamant is the role of the Federal Reserve System: "It is essential for the reform suggested that the Federal Reserve System should be kept out of its way." Mises advocated the creation of a "Conversion Agency" that would be responsible for issuing gold coins and bullion to the public, and redeeming excess quantities of gold in circulation if the public should choose to exchange gold for paper. The Federal Reserve would continue to have some responsibility under his plan, as a fiscal agent for the Treasury in managing the national debt, but the Conversion Agency would maintain the domestic and international exchange value of the dollar.

This is one of the most distinctive differences between Mises and other advocates of the gold standard, who want the Federal Reserve to buy and sell gold at a fixed conversion for dollars. The government's fiscal agent necessarily performs a banking function as it collects and disburses tax money. It would have to be separate from a conversion agency that would function more like an office of the National Bureau of Standards than like a bank. Mises's analysis of financial institutions and the market process led him to favor free, decentralized banking. He was thus a consistent advocate of a separation of powers.

Ludwig von Mises understood that the problem with monetary institutions is first of all a political problem. By proposing this separation of powers between the central bank and a conversion agency, he was an early proponent of an institutionalized competition in currency. Even the government of a constitutional republic like the United States could not be trusted with discretionary monetary power:

"The President, Congress, and the Supreme Court have clearly proved their inability or unwillingness to protect the common man, the voter, from being victimized by inflationary machinations. The function of securing a sound currency must pass into new hands, into those of the whole nation."

Restoring the monetary role for gold must become a popular crusade in the United States. In the political sphere, popular crusades require tangible ? as opposed to ideological or intellectual ? benefits that people can recognize and subscribe to.



The First Step: Gold Coinage

The heart of Mises's proposal to restore gold to our monetary system is a gold coinage. He wrote,

"Gold must be in the cash holdings of everyone. Everybody must see gold coins changing hands, must be used to having gold coins in his pockets, to receiving gold coins when he cashes his paycheck, and to spending gold coins when he buys in a store."

In this one detail ? the critical importance of the gold coinage ? I believe lies the key to establishing a new gold standard.

We should make no mistake about it: the more progress we make toward reestablishing the gold standard, the more aggressive our opposition will become. Some vested interests, as you know, have a lot to lose if we succeed in getting the monetary system reconstructed on a gold basis. The first political step is, therefore, to get the coinage into circulation.

One objective might be to aim for every American to become a gold owner. We must encourage a broader base of political support for gold ownership and the availability of gold for personal economic objectives. Certainly a broader base of gold ownership in the country would help to reduce the threats of discriminatory taxation or regulation of gold ownership and gold coin transactions, which are seriously favored in Congress today.

Ludwig von Mises and most advocates of a gold-coin standard have understood the coinage as something similar to what we had in the 19th century, until 1933. Under this concept, coins would be various sizes, with face values in "dollars" but not exact sizes in any system of weights. We could advocate a coinage of $50.00 denominations, about one-eleventh of an ounce, or $100.00 denominations, about one-fifth ounce; but that would start the process of rebuilding the gold monetary system at the wrong end. It would require, first, a majority in Congress to vote to establish a new par value for the dollar.

By starting with the necessity for a congressional majority to decide on the sizes and weights of gold coins, we must presume in advance that we know the "correct" par value for the dollar. We must presume that a majority of the public already supports the restoration of a gold standard. The political task becomes a gigantic educational problem. Before anything constructive could be accomplished, millions of people who understand nothing about the causes of inflation or the advantage of a free-market monetary system would have to be persuaded to join a political movement. All the misconceptions that are propounded today by academic economists, all the mysticism of the central bankers, all the objections of the politicians would have to be expunged from the popular mind. I do not believe this would be an efficient way to approach the problem.

What we must first do is get the coinage into circulation, and then build the political base to lock the government's fiscal folly with golden handcuffs. People have always understood the tangible value of gold coins in circulation. They don't need to agree or even understand the fine points of monetary theory to own gold coins, trade gold coins, or use gold coins to satisfy part of their marginal-utility demand for cash balances.

Most people understand very little about economics or monetary theory. When they see supposed experts in disagreement, the status quo wins by default, because nobody with the power to change it has the courage of conviction. The majority of voters see the debate among experts and hesitate to support any leaders with comprehensive reform schemes. This is why all efforts to rebuild a gold monetary system have met with frustration and stalemate in the past.

The demonstrated popularity in the United States of Krugerrand coins, and all the imitators of the Krugerrand (Maple Leaf, Panda, Onza, and the US Gold medallions) have shown us that it is possible to adopt another tactic, that of getting gold coins into circulation prior to setting a new par value for the dollar. Indeed, the only affirmative recommendation of the Gold Commission was to create a new US gold coinage in units of weight.

I would love to see a purely private, free-market monetary system with any honest manufacturer able to produce coins, as Americans saw in California from 1849 to 1864. There must certainly be no restrictions on the private production of coins, but I believe that getting the US Mint further into the act, producing a gold coinage with some of the mystique of the government, will be useful in the further political stages of monetary reform. Honest money, after all, is a political objective; it is fitting that people should demand honesty from their government, as well as an economic policy that permits individuals to compete honestly. An official coinage that reflects honest bullion weights is a powerful symbol of the gold standard we support.



The Transition to a Gold Standard

The coinage should be based on exact units of bullion weight. The coins should be denominated in troy ounces, half-ounces, and smaller sizes if feasible. The denomination of the coinage is the secret to our success in the later stages of the political agenda, so let me take a few moments to explain the central importance of the denominations.

There are several important advantages to starting with a gold coinage denominated in troy ounce and fractional units of an ounce. Since the unit of money should be defined as a definite weight of bullion, a coinage denominated by units of troy weight contributes significantly to the reeducation of the public. This knowledge, which is now almost completely lost to three generations of Americans, must be reimplanted.

Murray N. Rothbard has made this point most forcefully:

"The transition from gold to fiat money will be greatly smoothed if the State has previously abandoned ounces, grams, grains, and other units of weight in naming its monetary units and substituted unique names, such as dollar, mark, franc, etc. It will then be far easier to eliminate the public's association of monetary units with weight and to teach the public to value the names themselves. Furthermore, if each national government sponsors its own unique name, it will be far easier for each State to control its own fiat issue absolutely."

Some writers have resisted the suggestion of a coinage denominated only by units of weight, arguing that the "dollar" was originally a unit of weight; but I think this is a misstatement. "Dollar" was the name of a coin that had a definite weight, but it was not a "unit" of weight. Adopting the name of the standard unit of bullion weight as the denomination of the coinage will bring together two important concepts about money that we must actively teach to a majority of Americans if we are ever going to restore a gold standard. The educational job becomes that much easier.

Second, as Mises understood, the Federal Reserve and existing banks have to be kept separate from the remonetization of gold until the progress of popular support is broad and deep enough that special interest lobbying will not pervert the system. By avoiding any use of a dollar denomination on the coins, the Federal Reserve System is automatically kept out of the picture during this developmental period. The dollar denomination is today a monopoly trademark for the Federal Reserve System.

Third, when the date finally arrives, at the end of the transition period, to provide the US dollar with a fixed definition in terms of gold, it will be a very easy detail to announce to the public that the conversion agency stipulated by Mises is starting to buy and resell the troy-ounce coins at a fixed price. The dollar was defined as 25.8 grains of standard gold in 1900. Today it might be defined as one grain of standard 0.900 gold. There is nothing inconsistent with this requirement if the coins are denominated in troy ounce, half-ounce, or quarter-ounce sizes.

In Mises's monetary reform proposal, and under the classical gold standard, the various substitutes for coin ? bank notes, bank drafts and acceptances, and demand deposits ? are supposed to be fixed in value to the underlying coin and exchangeable for it. The conversion agency would function as a resale buyer and wholesale distributor of the coins, and equally as a buyer of last resort for the paper money of the Federal Reserve.

The question that is most difficult to answer about the transition to a new gold standard is how long it should take. The transition plan envisioned by Mises called for a period of time in which the free market in gold discovered the new parity rate that would produce neither inflation nor deflation.

"It is probable that the price of gold established after some oscillations on the American market will be higher than $35 per ounce ? maybe somewhere between $36 and $38, perhaps even somewhat higher. Once the market price has attained some stability, the time has come to decree this market rate as the new legal parity of the dollar and to secure its unconditional convertibility at this parity."

Mises did not discuss how long this transition period should last before fixing the new par value for the dollar, but it would have to last as long as it might take to build a political majority. This is almost a truism, because Congress would have to enact legislation to fix the gold weight of the US dollar.

The choice for advocates of a gold-coin monetary system, therefore, is straightforward: either we move ahead with a program for US gold coins denominated by weight, with no face value in terms of dollars ? thereby starting the transition period immediately ? or we sit on our hands, perhaps for decades, debating the fine points of banking theory, until the paper money system collapses around us. Even then, it is not obvious that the collapse of the paper money system would bring about the political pressure necessary to restore a gold standard. We might end up with controls on wages, prices, credit, and exchange controls instead of a gold-coin standard.



Longer-Term Benefits of Bullion-Weight Coinage

Over the longer term, assuming the transition to a new gold standard is successful (with Congress enacting a gold value for the dollar and fiscal policy disciplined by monetary convertibility), there are still distinct advantages to retaining the coinage in units of troy weight rather than assigning an official, stamped dollar value on the face of the coins.

First, Gresham's law ? Bad money drives out good ? tends to affect even the most perfect gold-coin standard. If we want gold coins to circulate freely in an economy where all prices are quoted in dollars, the coins themselves should not be denominated in dollars. Gresham's law operates even when bank notes are 100 percent warehouse receipts for gold. People might be able to trust that bank notes are fully backed by gold, but given the choice of which to spend and which to keep in the cash box, the paper will be spent and the coin will be saved because each monetary instrument has its own subjective value qualities.

The mere fact that honest coins are more secure than even the most secure paper is a sufficient qualitative difference to give them a premium value. The subjective evaluation of every person in the free-market economy must be employed to help keep the monetary system honest and noninflationary. To assure that gold coins move in active commerce, rather than sitting in vaults, we must let free-market pricing operate. Let the coins command a slight premium everywhere except at the conversion agency, which would have to redeem any excess Federal Reserve dollar bank notes (token money) for honest coin at the par value in response to public demand.

Gresham's law is a natural consequence of price fixing, mandating the exchange of items with different marginal utilities at a ratio not determined by the free market. It is, in fact, a special case of setting a price by law slightly too low for gold coins, the preferred form of money for long-term savings. Only the conversion agency should be mandated by law to exchange genuine coin for paper dollars at the par value. There are costs in terms of real resources, opportunity costs in the operations of a gold coin monetary system. These costs are worth paying; they must be paid to have an operational monetary constitution that prevents financial exploitation, but the issue of "Who pays?" must also be considered.

Most economists who support a gold-coin standard do not recognize the importance of distributing the marginal costs of coinage throughout the entire spectrum of the monetary economy. In the 19th century, this system of fixing the face value of gold coins in terms of paper bank notes, rather than by units of weight, led to the centralization of gold hoards in bank vaults, which made it all the easier for governments to confiscate them. The simple confusion of the coin and the denomination of the money produced the effect of Gresham's law during the classical period. If it is left up to the government, the central bank, or the banking system to absorb the costs of having coin always on hand to redeem bank notes at face value, the managers at each stage will attempt to economize these costs, rather than charging the consumer for them, and there will be a constant pressure to take coins out of circulation and replace them with substitutes: paper bank notes and demand deposits.

If the coinage is denominated only in terms of troy ounces and fractions of an ounce, the free-market pricing structure takes care of this problem instantly and effortlessly. The official conversion agency must redeem Federal Reserve notes at par, but others should be free to charge a competitive premium for gold coins (that is, to discount Federal Reserve notes). This would tend to assure a continuing flow of gold coins into private ownership.

Ludwig von Mises proposed to solve this problem by forcing the circulation of gold coins by prohibiting any paper bank notes in the $5, $10, and $20 denominations. In 1952 it seemed reasonable to him that the dollar might be worth something nearer l/40th ounce, so gold coins could replace those denominations. Today only the $100 bill would be affected by this proposal, since gold coins now would be too tiny for most commercial transactions. Where they would find most popular utility would be in financial transactions and in the purchase of consumer durables, because of the generally higher prices. Over time, the Federal Reserve dollar will come to be recognized as a form of token money that is just a tiny fraction of a gold ounce.

We can only make political use of the fact that the public treasures hard money over paper money if we make it clear that there is a difference. A different denomination for each form ? "dollars" for paper and "troy ounces" for coin ? is the easiest and most obvious way to achieve this objective. There is a specious similarity in this proposal to the gold exchange standard of the 1920s, but the active circulation of small-denomination gold coins would defeat any such criticism. The denial of any small-denomination coins was the distinguishing feature of the pseudo gold standard adopted in the 1920s and perpetuated under the Bretton Woods arrangement in 1944.

So long as the conversion agency performed its role, it would also be impossible for the Federal Reserve System to produce a monetary inflation because the conversion agency, which would be completely separate from the government's banking activities, would be engaged in the process of absorbing excess dollars from circulation, in exchange for the troy-ounce coins that it issues. If the Federal Reserve made the opposite mistake, as it has often done in the past, of overly restricting the money supply, the market could always sell coins to the conversion agency to obtain any dollars demanded. A precise balance would be achieved between the general public's demand for money in the form of coin and its demand in the form of bank notes or deposit account with banks by the existence of the conversion agency as something separate from the Federal Reserve.



Agenda for Monetary Reform

The genius of Ludwig von Mises was his profound insight into the free-market process, the science of catallactics. The most important thing I have learned from his work is that the achievement of a new gold standard in our society will have to come from the free market itself. This is why I believe the first step must be a new troy-ounce gold coinage, even without any legal tender qualities or special tax treatment. As we have found in recent banking deregulation, the market develops new procedures and techniques in the monetary and financial system, and Congress follows with repeal of old, restrictive laws. This is the political and economic dynamic process that we also can harness to restore gold to its proper monetary role.

All the government needs to do is to get out of the way. The political and economic agenda for monetary reform, therefore, consists of the following steps:

1.

Congress must adopt the legislation recommended by the Gold Commission to bring a new US gold coinage into circulation, denominated only in troy-ounce units and fractions thereof.
2.

Advocates of the remonetization of gold must work both in the political arena and in the marketplace to get as many of these new coins into the possession of the public as possible. Politically, this means resisting taxation or any regulations on the utility of the new gold coins for purposes of exchange either for other goods and services or for dollars. As Ludwig von Mises demonstrated in his Theory of Money and Credit, it is the marketability of a good that gives it a monetary character. The more easily recognized and marketable the new gold coinage becomes, the more it will be recognized as genuine pieces of money.
3.

The fact that the troy ounce of gold is well defined and the paper dollar has no fixed referent at all should be made the focus of continued education and debate, just as we are now doing. The continuing academic work by students of Carl Menger and Ludwig von Mises in monetary and financial theory is vitally important, particularly to expose the fallacies of centralized macroeconomic planning and the failure of "managed money." The acquiescence of the economics profession, which is today disdainful of gold, will have to be secured. Serious academic work will stimulate interest in a new Gold Commission, which would be able to focus this research in economic theory on the political issue of monetary reform. It is essential to move the center of monetary debate from the question of how the central bank should perform monetary management to the more general question of managed money versus market-process money.
4.

The objective would remain to persuade a majority of Congress to enact a new par value for the US dollar in terms of gold. When every American family is familiar with gold coins and understands the intrinsic defects in a managed paper standard, a majority in Congress can be persuaded by the demands of voters to enact a new par value for the US dollar and to establish the conversion agency described by Mises.

Except for random shocks in the financial markets, due to Federal Reserve central-planning mistakes, and occasional political disturbances, such as a Middle East war or troubles in South Africa, the dollar value of the troy-ounce coins should stabilize, just as we saw in 1984. The old myth that "gold is too unstable to serve as money" will be disproven by the common popular experience.

The strategy set forth in these four steps, I believe, is the only politically feasible way it can be done. All of the wishful thinking about restoring the gold standard by electing the "right person" to be president, or by attempting to educate the general public, will fail without first making available a tangible gold coinage as something they can see, touch, use for a portion of their savings, and become accustomed to using for many kinds of transactions. Public opinion polls have shown strong support for monetary stability. There is substantial support for a gold standard among the American public, yet the various proposals for enacting a par value for the dollar are dismissed by congressmen, the financial and business press, and "experts" of all stripes.

The task at hand, therefore, is to remove every roadblock to the realization of the will of the majority. The sentiment for gold must be mobilized. The question is no longer "Why do we need a gold standard?" but "How do we get it enacted?" To restore the gold standard to its central role in our system of constitutional government, we must lead a second kind of American revolution, a popular movement for honest money.

As Mises wrote, "Without such a check all other constitutional safeguards can be rendered vain."

The gold standard as a constitutional restraint on our government was abolished in the United States, not in 1934 nor in 1971, but in 1819 with the US Supreme Court case of McCulloch v. Maryland. With this famous Supreme Court interpretation of the Constitution, the federal government acquired the sovereign power to manipulate the nation's money, from which the legal tender laws of the Civil War, the central-banking powers of the Federal Reserve System, and the ultimate prohibition on any private use of gold as money in 1934 derived. This link between sovereignty and currency manipulation has been ably argued by Henry Mark Holzer.

The key to the government's power to manipulate money is its control over the definition of the word "dollar." A troy ounce coinage in widespread circulation would significantly alter the public's perception of the government's monetary role. If the Congress should ever attempt to change the par value of the dollar in terms of the gold coinage, the holders of coins would be fully protected. Financial promises to pay coins would be protected, in a way that promises to pay dollars would not be. Best of all, as a result of the separation of currency and coin denominations, there would be no public purpose served by asking citizens to turn in old coins for new ones; the crime of January 1934 would not be repeated.

Restoring a gold coinage is also the highest duty we now face, as citizens of this country. We no longer live in a world where the free market is taken for granted. On the contrary, most people assume government must control and guide the economic system for the benefit of all. Ludwig von Mises suffered during most of his career because he understood too well the stakes of this ideological conflict:

"Cynics dispose of the advocacy of the restitution of the gold standard by calling it Utopian. Yet we have only the choice between two Utopias: the Utopia of a market economy, not paralysed by government sabotage, on the one hand, and the Utopia of totalitarian all-round planning on the other hand. The choice of the first alternative implies the decision in favour of the gold standard."

I believe the goal of a market economy, not paralyzed by government sabotage on behalf of vested interests and pressure groups is an ideal worth fighting for. This is why I first ran for Congress, and it is the only reason I believe justifies political action.

I think he goes into pretty good detail about the change back to a gold standard and its not as most would have you believe.
 

Capitalizt

Banned
Nov 28, 2004
1,513
0
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GOLD AND ECONOMIC FREEDOM

by Alan Greenspan

An almost hysterical antagonism toward the gold standard is one issue which unites statists of all persuasions. They seem to sense ? perhaps more clearly and subtly than many consistent defenders of laissez-faire ? that gold and economic freedom are inseparable, that the gold standard is an instrument of laissez-faire and that each implies and requires the other.

In order to understand the source of their antagonism, it is necessary first to understand the specific role of gold in a free society.

Money is the common denominator of all economic transactions. It is that commodity which serves as a medium of exchange, is universally acceptable to all participants in an exchange economy as payment for their goods or services, and can, therefore, be used as a standard of market value and as a store of value, i.e., as a means of saving.

The existence of such a commodity is a precondition of a division of labor economy. If men did not have some commodity of objective value which was generally acceptable as money, they would have to resort to primitive barter or be forced to live on self-sufficient farms and forgo the inestimable advantages of specialization. If men had no means to store value, i.e., to save, neither long-range planning nor exchange would be possible.

What medium of exchange will be acceptable to all participants in an economy is not determined arbitrarily. First, the medium of exchange should be durable. In a primitive society of meager wealth, wheat might be sufficiently durable to serve as a medium, since all exchanges would occur only during and immediately after the harvest, leaving no value-surplus to store. But where store-of-value considerations are important, as they are in richer, more civilized societies, the medium of exchange must be a durable commodity, usually a metal. A metal is generally chosen because it is homogeneous and divisible: every unit is the same as every other and it can be blended or formed in any quantity. Precious jewels, for example, are neither homogeneous nor divisible. More important, the commodity chosen as a medium must be a luxury. Human desires for luxuries are unlimited and, therefore, luxury goods are always in demand and will always be acceptable. Wheat is a luxury in underfed civilizations, but not in a prosperous society. Cigarettes ordinarily would not serve as money, but they did in post-World War II Europe where they were considered a luxury. The term "luxury good" implies scarcity and high unit value. Having a high unit value, such a good is easily portable; for instance, an ounce of gold is worth a half-ton of pig iron.

In the early stages of a developing money economy, several media of exchange might be used, since a wide variety of commodities would fulfill the foregoing conditions. However, one of the commodities will gradually displace all others, by being more widely acceptable. Preferences on what to hold as a store of value will shift to the most widely acceptable commodity, which, in turn, will make it still more acceptable. The shift is progressive until that commodity becomes the sole medium of exchange. The use of a single medium is highly advantageous for the same reasons that a money economy is superior to a barter economy: it makes exchanges possible on an incalculably wider scale.

Whether the single medium is gold, silver, seashells, cattle, or tobacco is optional, depending on the context and development of a given economy. In fact, all have been employed, at various times, as media of exchange. Even in the present century, two major commodities, gold and silver, have been used as international media of exchange, with gold becoming the predominant one. Gold, having both artistic and functional uses and being relatively scarce, has significant advantages over all other media of exchange. Since the beginning of World War I, it has been virtually the sole international standard of exchange. If all goods and services were to be paid for in gold, large payments would be difficult to execute and this would tend to limit the extent of a society's divisions of labor and specialization. Thus a logical extension of the creation of a medium of exchange is the development of a banking system and credit instruments (bank notes and deposits) which act as a substitute for, but are convertible into, gold.

A free banking system based on gold is able to extend credit and thus to create bank notes (currency) and deposits, according to the production requirements of the economy. Individual owners of gold are induced, by payments of interest, to deposit their gold in a bank (against which they can draw checks). But since it is rarely the case that all depositors want to withdraw all their gold at the same time, the banker need keep only a fraction of his total deposits in gold as reserves. This enables the banker to loan out more than the amount of his gold deposits (which means that he holds claims to gold rather than gold as security of his deposits). But the amount of loans which he can afford to make is not arbitrary: he has to gauge it in relation to his reserves and to the status of his investments.

When banks loan money to finance productive and profitable endeavors, the loans are paid off rapidly and bank credit continues to be generally available. But when the business ventures financed by bank credit are less profitable and slow to pay off, bankers soon find that their loans outstanding are excessive relative to their gold reserves, and they begin to curtail new lending, usually by charging higher interest rates. This tends to restrict the financing of new ventures and requires the existing borrowers to improve their profitability before they can obtain credit for further expansion. Thus, under the gold standard, a free banking system stands as the protector of an economy's stability and balanced growth. When gold is accepted as the medium of exchange by most or all nations, an unhampered free international gold standard serves to foster a world-wide division of labor and the broadest international trade. Even though the units of exchange (the dollar, the pound, the franc, etc.) differ from country to country, when all are defined in terms of gold the economies of the different countries act as one ? so long as there are no restraints on trade or on the movement of capital. Credit, interest rates, and prices tend to follow similar patterns in all countries. For example, if banks in one country extend credit too liberally, interest rates in that country will tend to fall, inducing depositors to shift their gold to higher-interest paying banks in other countries. This will immediately cause a shortage of bank reserves in the "easy money" country, inducing tighter credit standards and a return to competitively higher interest rates again.

A fully free banking system and fully consistent gold standard have not as yet been achieved. But prior to World War I, the banking system in the United States (and in most of the world) was based on gold and even though governments intervened occasionally, banking was more free than controlled. Periodically, as a result of overly rapid credit expansion, banks became loaned up to the limit of their gold reserves, interest rates rose sharply, new credit was cut off, and the economy went into a sharp, but short-lived recession. (Compared with the depressions of 1920 and 1932, the pre-World War I business declines were mild indeed.) It was limited gold reserves that stopped the unbalanced expansions of business activity, before they could develop into the post-World War I type of disaster. The readjustment periods were short and the economies quickly reestablished a sound basis to resume expansion.

But the process of cure was misdiagnosed as the disease: if shortage of bank reserves was causing a business decline ? argued economic interventionists ? why not find a way of supplying increased reserves to the banks so they never need be short! If banks can continue to loan money indefinitely ? it was claimed ? there need never be any slumps in business. And so the Federal Reserve System was organized in 1913. It consisted of twelve regional Federal Reserve banks nominally owned by private bankers, but in fact government sponsored, controlled, and supported. Credit extended by these banks is in practice (though not legally) backed by the taxing power of the federal government. Technically, we remained on the gold standard; individuals were still free to own gold, and gold continued to be used as bank reserves. But now, in addition to gold, credit extended by the Federal Reserve banks ("paper reserves") could serve as legal tender to pay depositors.

When business in the United States underwent a mild contraction in 1927, the Federal Reserve created more paper reserves in the hope of forestalling any possible bank reserve shortage. More disastrous, however, was the Federal Reserve's attempt to assist Great Britain who had been losing gold to us because the Bank of England refused to allow interest rates to rise when market forces dictated (it was politically unpalatable). The reasoning of the authorities involved was as follows: if the Federal Reserve pumped excessive paper reserves into American banks, interest rates in the United States would fall to a level comparable with those in Great Britain; this would act to stop Britain's gold loss and avoid the political embarrassment of having to raise interest rates. The "Fed" succeeded; it stopped the gold loss, but it nearly destroyed the economies of the world, in the process. The excess credit which the Fed pumped into the economy spilled over into the stock market, triggering a fantastic speculative boom. Belatedly, Federal Reserve officials attempted to sop up the excess reserves and finally succeeded in braking the boom. But it was too late: by 1929 the speculative imbalances had become so overwhelming that the attempt precipitated a sharp retrenching and a consequent demoralizing of business confidence. As a result, the American economy collapsed. Great Britain fared even worse, and rather than absorb the full consequences of her previous folly, she abandoned the gold standard completely in 1931, tearing asunder what remained of the fabric of confidence and inducing a world-wide series of bank failures. The world economies plunged into the Great Depression of the 1930's.

With a logic reminiscent of a generation earlier, statists argued that the gold standard was largely to blame for the credit debacle which led to the Great Depression. If the gold standard had not existed, they argued, Britain's abandonment of gold payments in 1931 would not have caused the failure of banks all over the world. (The irony was that since 1913, we had been, not on a gold standard, but on what may be termed "a mixed gold standard"; yet it is gold that took the blame.) But the opposition to the gold standard in any form ? from a growing number of welfare-state advocates ? was prompted by a much subtler insight: the realization that the gold standard is incompatible with chronic deficit spending (the hallmark of the welfare state). Stripped of its academic jargon, the welfare state is nothing more than a mechanism by which governments confiscate the wealth of the productive members of a society to support a wide variety of welfare schemes. A substantial part of the confiscation is effected by taxation. But the welfare statists were quick to recognize that if they wished to retain political power, the amount of taxation had to be limited and they had to resort to programs of massive deficit spending, i.e., they had to borrow money, by issuing government bonds, to finance welfare expenditures on a large scale.

Under a gold standard, the amount of credit that an economy can support is determined by the economy's tangible assets, since every credit instrument is ultimately a claim on some tangible asset. But government bonds are not backed by tangible wealth, only by the government's promise to pay out of future tax revenues, and cannot easily be absorbed by the financial markets. A large volume of new government bonds can be sold to the public only at progressively higher interest rates. Thus, government deficit spending under a gold standard is severely limited. The abandonment of the gold standard made it possible for the welfare statists to use the banking system as a means to an unlimited expansion of credit. They have created paper reserves in the form of government bonds which ? through a complex series of steps ? the banks accept in place of tangible assets and treat as if they were an actual deposit, i.e., as the equivalent of what was formerly a deposit of gold. The holder of a government bond or of a bank deposit created by paper reserves believes that he has a valid claim on a real asset. But the fact is that there are now more claims outstanding than real assets. The law of supply and demand is not to be conned. As the supply of money (of claims) increases relative to the supply of tangible assets in the economy, prices must eventually rise. Thus the earnings saved by the productive members of the society lose value in terms of goods. When the economy's books are finally balanced, one finds that this loss in value represents the goods purchased by the government for welfare or other purposes with the money proceeds of the government bonds financed by bank credit expansion.

In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation. There is no safe store of value.
If there were, the government would have to make its holding illegal, as was done in the case of gold. If everyone decided, for example, to convert all his bank deposits to silver or copper or any other good, and thereafter declined to accept checks as payment for goods, bank deposits would lose their purchasing power and government-created bank credit would be worthless as a claim on goods. The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.

This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists' antagonism toward the gold standard.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
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Originally posted by: Capitalizt
Decades old paper from the master of Fiat.

Wow, a decades old paper. Nothing can change from then!

there are plenty of value storage.

1. Stocks, bonds, pensions, all have inflation built in.

2. Savings have inflation build in.

3. Houses

4. Provided real wages are maintained, wages. And they have been maintained.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
Originally posted by: Capitalizt
Originally posted by: yllus
The key to rooting out Al Qaeda, then, is to deprive it of what allows it to thrive.

The key to rooting out Al Queda is to eliminate the INCENTIVE for them to attack us. Of course those at the top have firm ideological/religious beliefs that call for the destruction of the USA...but they are in the minority in these terror groups. The rank and file are not motivated by a culture war...but by what they see as an oppressive power intervening in their countries and permanently occupying muslim lands.

Do you think the average terror recruiter pulls kids off the street and says "Look, those Americans are corrupt. They eat Mcdonalds and listen to Britney Spears. Go fly 6000 miles and commit suicide against them!"

No. He simply points at the occupying army over the hill...at the sanctions that have killed hundreds of thousands of civilians...at the permanent military bases being built on holy land...and at the oil we are sucking from their deserts. He points out how we subvert and overthrow leaders we disagree with, and how we support and arm countries we like regardless of how distasteful their actions are (Israel, dictators in Pakistan, etc).

The vast majority of "terrorists" become terrorists because of what they see with their own eyes. "Corrupt American culture" might be a footnote in the terror training manual, but our interventionist foreign policy is what sparks the desire to fight America.

As someone who grew up with a Muslim upbringing and has actually been to the Indian subcontinent I actually have a pretty firm grasp on how hatred of the West gets formulated. 99% of the time it's over perceived bullshit that's fed to them by their reigning monarch/president for life/outright dictator who's looking for a convenient scapegoat for hoarding all that oil money instead of handing it over to the state. 1% of the time it's for legitimate reasons, like the reckless way Pakistan was abandoned by the West after its purpose as a Afghan War proxy was fulfilled in the 80s.

Do you actually have any examples of occupying armies that would justify the kind of rage and destruction we've seen prior to 2001? The West may supply the Saudis with all of the latest military toys and pay top dollar for their oil, but your alternative (or lack thereof) is even worse. Shall we invade to make things right? Stop using oil? Great ideas on paper, but let's see you come up with a workable policy.

Offhand, a pretty significant reason why the West is so hated is the cultural hegemony that, through no real fault of its own, it imposes on the rest of the world. In most of the Muslim world, the more conservative you act, the higher your standing in the community. Channeling some brimstone and fire rants against the West - which often take on a life of its own and animates the gullible youth - is a great way to gain instant respect.