CAD Workstation Dilemma

[kevinsbane]

So the small business I work for is going to be upgrading to the newest version of AutoCAD Civil 3d. I've been pushing for them to ugprade their hardware for a while now, and now finally, I have a solid reason to insist: our machines are simply too ancient to run Civil 2011 properly. Some of them are still running P4's with 512 megabytes of ram!

Ideally, I would like to move to Sandy Bridge, since it is very well suited to AutoCAD, being primarily a single-threaded workload. We don't do any 3d modelling, no rendering at all, and work mostly in 2d drafting. Any 3d work we do is for checking only, to make sure that our 2d drafting looks right. In terms of processor use, the biggest bottleneck that I'm facing is when I deal with large data sets (survey data), surface modelling and quantity calculations.

I noticed that my current workstation, a Dell Precision 390, runs ECC memory. Sandy Bridge does not seem to support ECC ram. How big of an issue will this turn out to be? SB offers a significantly higher performance (50%+) compared to a Xeon based machine which costs twice as much, so I am loathe to recommend going to Xeon platform. Does ECC outweigh the performance, cost and potential architecture advantages of Sandy Bridge?

 

[bruceb]

You do not need ECC memory. But for Autocad a speedy multicore processor would be a huge help. Not sure if Autocad can run in 64 bit mode or if it can use more than 4GB of RAM .. if it can, that is the way you should go. A good graphics card with lots of on board video ram is also a big help.

 

[mfenn]

No, you do not really need ECC for workstation-class systems that only run apps during business hours. I'd still recommend a PC from a tier 1 vendor of course.

Business-class machines tend to be refreshed at a slower pace than consumer machines and a quick survey of Dell and HP's websites did not show any Sandy Bridge models available as of yet. If they cannot wait any longer, I'd recommend getting something based on the Lynnfield/Bloomfield/Westmere (i.e. first generation core i-series). Stability and support is more important than blazing speed in a production environment.

 

[mnewsham]

No, you do not really need ECC for workstation-class systems that only run apps during business hours. I'd still recommend a PC from a tier 1 vendor of course.

Business-class machines tend to be refreshed at a slower pace than consumer machines and a quick survey of Dell and HP's websites did not show any Sandy Bridge models available as of yet. If they cannot wait any longer, I'd recommend getting something based on the Lynnfield/Bloomfield/Westmere (i.e. first generation core i-series). Stability and support is more important than blazing speed in a production environment.

the new vostro i think is the only buisness line from dell that offers the new SB platform. But the best GPU you can get is 5670.

 

[kevinsbane]

Yes, the Vostro 460 line comes with Sandy Bridge.

I am thinking that even the HD 2000 will work for our uses of AutoCAD. For the people in our company, 95% of the work is 2D, 4.5% of the work is 3d and rendered using an 8-9 year old program (which renders just dandily on old ATI Rage cards), and 0.5% is 3D wireframe modeling (for checks). Even so, a low end discrete would be better for display output options. I was debating the video card option, but reading around it doesn't seem that AutoCAD benefits much from professional cards in the 2D space, especially since they've moved away from OpenGL.

 

[mnewsham]

Yes, the Vostro 460 line comes with Sandy Bridge.

I am thinking that even the HD 2000 will work for our uses of AutoCAD. For the people in our company, 95% of the work is 2D, 4.5% of the work is 3d and rendered using an 8-9 year old program (which renders just dandily on old ATI Rage cards), and 0.5% is 3D wireframe modeling (for checks). Even so, a low end discrete would be better for display output options. I was debating the video card option, but reading around it doesn't seem that AutoCAD benefits much from professional cards in the 2D space, especially since they've moved away from OpenGL.

if that's the case id say just go with the vostro and the 5670.

 

[Davidh373]

No, you do not really need ECC for workstation-class systems that only run apps during business hours. I'd still recommend a PC from a tier 1 vendor of course.

Business-class machines tend to be refreshed at a slower pace than consumer machines and a quick survey of Dell and HP's websites did not show any Sandy Bridge models available as of yet. If they cannot wait any longer, I'd recommend getting something based on the Lynnfield/Bloomfield/Westmere (i.e. first generation core i-series). Stability and support is more important than blazing speed in a production environment.

I fully agree with this.

If you NEED Sandy Bridge, you can always get a Dell or HP, and pop a Quadro in there, but without knowing your CAD usage it is hard to say how much you need in a card. Stability from 3D apps usually come from the GPU, but a professional grade workstation/ server platform is still recommended.

Basically it comes down to what your company can afford per station. If it's $600-$1000 you'll be in the boonies, $1000-$2000+ you'll be in Sandy Bridge/ mid range Quadro country, if it's $2000 - $3000 you'll be in Xeon/ high end Quadro paradise.

Like mfenn said though, SB doesn't have any Xeon equivalents yet, and you'd likely be looking at Lynnfield/ Bloomfield for that. There is no shame in that though, they are still perfectly fine in the workstation environment.

EDIT: looks like (according to wikipedia anyway...) that the SB Xeons are coming in Febuary. It may be worth the wait, depending on how fast your company needs Civil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_future_Intel_microprocessors

 

[kevinsbane]

We'll see how it goes. We'll be ordering one system first, to see how everything works out on it before doing a mass order. Transitioning from 8-10 year old tech is a pain. People in my office are still using old DOS apps to do parts of the drafting, so I gotta make sure that stuff still works too. Then again, if it doesn't work, that's not exactly a bad thing either.

I dunno about the Xeon class workstations in February. Honestly, I'm scared to look at the prices on those things for a similar specs that I'm looking at now. Especially for Dell and their ridiculous ram prices. Seriously, 265 dollars for an upgrade to 8 gig from 4 gigs; and this being non-ECC ram. I might as well just buy the system without ram and put in my own ram. I guess the absolute cost overall isn't that much comparatively, but it offends my sensibilities to spend 2x or 3x or 4x the amount of money for the exact same result.

 

[imagoon]

We'll see how it goes. We'll be ordering one system first, to see how everything works out on it before doing a mass order. Transitioning from 8-10 year old tech is a pain. People in my office are still using old DOS apps to do parts of the drafting, so I gotta make sure that stuff still works too. Then again, if it doesn't work, that's not exactly a bad thing either.

I dunno about the Xeon class workstations in February. Honestly, I'm scared to look at the prices on those things for a similar specs that I'm looking at now. Especially for Dell and their ridiculous ram prices. Seriously, 265 dollars for an upgrade to 8 gig from 4 gigs; and this being non-ECC ram. I might as well just buy the system without ram and put in my own ram. I guess the absolute cost overall isn't that much comparatively, but it offends my sensibilities to spend 2x or 3x or 4x the amount of money for the exact same result.

You would think so, but it is much nicer to call them with an issue and have them fix it with out a ton of questions and blame being placed on your RAM upgrade.

We do 3D and have drawings / Navisworks that when opened use 16+ gig of RAM. We generally put the 24gig we ordered in it to work.

Also if you are a business... the best thing you can do is call them and see if you can set up a business account. Buying off the main website is like walking in and paying MSRP...

 

[mnewsham]

You would think so, but it is much nicer to call them with an issue and have them fix it with out a ton of questions and blame being placed on your RAM upgrade.

We do 3D and have drawings / Navisworks that when opened use 16+ gig of RAM. We generally put the 24gig we ordered in it to work.

Also if you are a business... the best thing you can do is call them and see if you can set up a business account. Buying off the main website is like walking in and paying MSRP...

I agree, call them up because they will sell for a lot less most of the time.

 

[yh125d]

Man, if all you do is 2D, you really don't need $2,000 machines. I think you'd be better served by the lower priced models. If you have guys on 8-10yr old pentiums, even an i3 530 system would be an order of magnitude faster

And no, draftsmen need neither Server CPUs nor ECC ram

 

[kevinsbane]

Dell is offering surprisingly capable machines (before upgrades...) The vostro 460 with an i5 2400 is $650. Then again, it comes with no graphics card at that price.

Called them up; they can offer me a ram upgrade at half the listed price (2x2GiB -> 2x4GiB for $80). Ugh. Maybe for the mass purchase; for the test machine, I'll leave it at 4 GiB ram and upgrade it myself. Weirdly enough, I don't have a problem overpaying for the other stuff; cpu, HDD, video card, operating system. Just ram.

 

[mnewsham]

Dell is offering surprisingly capable machines (before upgrades...) The vostro 460 with an i5 2400 is $650. Then again, it comes with no graphics card at that price.

Called them up; they can offer me a ram upgrade at half the listed price (2x2GiB -> 2x4GiB for $80). Ugh. Maybe for the mass purchase; for the test machine, I'll leave it at 4 GiB ram and upgrade it myself. Weirdly enough, I don't have a problem overpaying for the other stuff; cpu, HDD, video card, operating system. Just ram.

Probably because DDR3 prices are dirt cheap right now.

 

[Davidh373]

Xeons of similar design as the consumer model processor normally cost $30-$40 more. What is the best thing to do normally is to get the best platform you can possibly muster and upgrade the RAM/ HDD/ SSD/ Graphics yourself unless you want it to come all in one package ready to boot and do what you need it to. I bet Dell charges buku bucks for them Quadro cards... I know they charge ~ 2x what you'd pay on newegg.

 

[mfenn]

I agree, call them up because they will sell for a lot less most of the time.

:thumbsup:

 

[mfenn]

Dell is offering surprisingly capable machines (before upgrades...) The vostro 460 with an i5 2400 is $650. Then again, it comes with no graphics card at that price.

Called them up; they can offer me a ram upgrade at half the listed price (2x2GiB -> 2x4GiB for $80). Ugh. Maybe for the mass purchase; for the test machine, I'll leave it at 4 GiB ram and upgrade it myself. Weirdly enough, I don't have a problem overpaying for the other stuff; cpu, HDD, video card, operating system. Just ram.

I'll bet that your Dell rep would be willing to send you a loaner for evaluation if you play your cards right. You should definitely let them know that you're planning to place a large order, that'll get the sales rep chomping at the bit to help you out.

How many machines are we talking about for the final order? You should be able to get some pretty good price breaks if we're talking about a $100K+ total order.

 

[mnewsham]

I'll bet that your Dell rep would be willing to send you a loaner for evaluation if you play your cards right. You should definitely let them know that you're planning to place a large order, that'll get the sales rep chomping at the bit to help you out.

How many machines are we talking about for the final order? You should be able to get some pretty good price breaks if we're talking about a $100K+ total order.

Hell even $25K+ iv seen them throw things your way. (free monitors, free HDD upgrades, more RAM, etc.)

 

[mfenn]

Hell even $25K+ iv seen them throw things your way. (free monitors, free HDD upgrades, more RAM, etc.)

I see that someone else does this shit for a living! :awe:

 

[mnewsham]

I see that someone else does this shit for a living! :awe:

You caught me

 

[kevinsbane]

100k... I wish! On a 100k+ budget, I wouldn't really care about the price of ram relative to market prices Not having to deal with work of getting the ram, testing the ram, installing and making sure that the computers won't crash would be worth the extra money. Mind you, I'll try to wrangle some extras out of them when we place the meat of the order.

Nah, we're a small business, looking at getting 7-8 machines total; so probably ~10k worth of equipment. Test machine has been ordered, so no changing that. (i5 2500 + 4 GiB ram + hd 5450). Once I put her through her paces, we'll see what needs upgrading.

David373, the processors are only a little more expensive, but aren't the platforms where the cost really mounts up? Personally, I don't see the benefit of Xeon class processors for our work; the only reason I would consider them would be for their ECC support, and it seems most people don't see ECC ram as necessary for basic CAD work. Is there any real benefit in single socket Xeons over consumer parts other than ECC support?

 

[mfenn]

Is there any real benefit in single socket Xeons over consumer parts other than ECC support?

No, not really. They are honestly the same damn thing. 2P+ and ECC are the real Xeon benefits.

 

[kevinsbane]

Update:

The Dell arrived a few days ago, and having used it, I must say, it makes such a huge difference on the drawings that I've been working with. The CPU power helps a great deal with my workflow.

HD 5450 works well for most of what we do, except for 3d orbits of large (5k+ points tin surfaces and contours), where it chugs along a bit more slowly, so I think I'd make a step up to the next level of graphics power (HD 5670).

But Intel. Crap. Why now? I guess the SATA issue doesn't affect us much, but now we can't get more machines. Might have to step down to Lynnfields, hm.

 

[mfenn]

Yeah, all the vendors are really freaking out over the SATA thing. I'd probably just get some Lynnfields and keep the Sandy Bridge for my personal machine. I'd tell people, "It might die any day, you know!" ()

But seriously, the Lynnfield will be almost as fast and it is currently available.

 

[fffblackmage]

HD 5450 works well for most of what we do, except for 3d orbits of large (5k+ points tin surfaces and contours), where it chugs along a bit more slowly, so I think I'd make a step up to the next level of graphics power (HD 5670).

You may want nVidia instead of AMD/ATI for what you do. nVidia just has the better support for the general purpose GPU thing.

 

[mfenn]

You may want nVidia instead of AMD/ATI for what you do. nVidia just has the better support for the general purpose GPU thing.

Not to mention better support for pro apps.