CAD hardware guidelines?

[SolidEd]

I am currently in the process of writing a proposal to purchase new CAD workstations. Some of the things my boss wants to see is not only why the "CAD specific" hardware I'm recommending is better than what most general use computers have but also how much more productive/efficient it's going to make us. That is a difficult thing to quantify.

Can anyone provide links to some good reads that might be able to help me out with any of the above?

Thanks in advance

 

[SolidEd]

Just to clear it up I've actually done the research on the type of hardware being used for cad systems (although I welcome the opportunity to read/learn about more). What I'm looking for is help on explaining why to use these hardwares vs what we have now in deeper terms than just "faster" "newer" "better" etc... Bottom line here is effeciency and productivity, so what i have to come up with is how much of it can we see out these purchases? (like I said a hard thing to quantify).

What I'm hoping I can find is some sort of (or series of) guidelines that tell explain why these or those specs, not nescessarrily a specific brand or model.

 

[pkme2]

When you buy a prebuilt CAD Workstation, the video card is usually the first one to be swapped out. Mainly because it was wiser for the sake of economics to take the basic version instead of paying thru the nose for the top model.

Next comes the next step. Trying to find a better source for the high-end Quadro FX. Disposal is usually done by a third party to sell off the fresh pulled cards to offset the cost of the new ones. Am I getting ahead of myself. If this not true, then my assertion is full of hot air.

It just my idea for good business sense that better choices are in the offing in the public marketplace. It's gonna cost you but there are smart ways to make it easier to contend with. I'm pretty sure you have googled all your info. The top quadro cards will definitely make your work extremely efficient and productivity enhanced.

We could just be chatting about the weather here. Nice being here.

 

[SolidEd]

Originally posted by: pkme2The top quadro cards will definitely make your work extremely efficient and productivity enhanced.

I'm not concerned with brands or models right now (that's actually a separate thread already). I am concerned with explaining your last statement to my boss. Why and how will these new hardwares make us more efficient/productive?

 

[pkme2]

NVIDIA Quadro® high-end graphics solutions are the industry-leading workstation graphics solutions for CAD, DCC and visualization applications. Featuring outstanding performance and quality, NVIDIA Quadro high-end products deliver 256MB frame buffer memory, up to 42.2GB/sec. memory bandwidth, 256-bit memory interface and support for ultra high-resolution panels up to 3840x2400 for ultimate productivity. Offering a new level of interactivity for engineers and designers, NVIDIA Quadro high-end graphics solutions enable shorter production cycles and faster time-to-market.

In terms of speed in rendering, using a model T and finally switching to a Ferrari.
In terms of work ability, using a mule to a D9.
Its like getting 8hrs of work done in 2hrs. Time is money and cutting production time is what it's all about.

Do you understand the concept of a high-end cad machine?
One can try to get the best and pay a fortune, but you can impress your boss by gathering the facts by hard research. There's no shortcuts except what you put into it.

Quadro FX
Cad Workstations
Configure your own

This info gets you started. You have to come up with ways to get the job done and if you undertaking the responsibility of specifying the new CADs. You either pick a provider or build your own.

If you need to talk to a specialist, do so. Tell him/she your needs etc and get a proposal.
If its too high, then build one to your specifications from all the recommendations you can get.

When that done, present the proposals to your boss.
I recommend a cheap, medium and high-end; let him then make the decision. You did yours and maybe you've gained and earned his you know what.
Oh, well. Just an old guy and his thoughts.

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: SolidEd

Originally posted by: pkme2The top quadro cards will definitely make your work extremely efficient and productivity enhanced.

I'm not concerned with brands or models right now (that's actually a separate thread already). I am concerned with explaining your last statement to my boss. Why and how will these new hardwares make us more efficient/productive?

I would say "what he said" regarding pkme2's statement, however I simply wanted to interject that the hardware requirements will vary depending on the complexity of the project, and on the methodology utilized to complete it.

Integrated graphics will do a great job for most 2D drafting purposes.

My opinion for what it's worth is that the Athlon 600 is about all the horsepower one needs for 2D drafting.

For 3D, your results will vary depending on the application you choose.

Further to that, I continue to hold my stance that the integrated memory controller of the A64 gives it a realtime performance advantage within CAD, compared to one without.

To top it off, I'm thinking a high-end "non Quaddro" card will dust a low-end Quaddro. For the same price, more or less.

 

[pkme2]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: SolidEd

Originally posted by: pkme2The top quadro cards will definitely make your work extremely efficient and productivity enhanced.

I'm not concerned with brands or models right now (that's actually a separate thread already). I am concerned with explaining your last statement to my boss. Why and how will these new hardwares make us more efficient/productive?

I would say "what he said" regarding pkme2's statement, however I simply wanted to interject that the hardware requirements will vary depending on the complexity of the project, and on the methodology utilized to complete it.

Integrated graphics will do a great job for most 2D drafting purposes.

My opinion for what it's worth is that the Athlon 600 is about all the horsepower one needs for 2D drafting.

For 3D, your results will vary depending on the application you choose.

Further to that, I continue to hold my stance that the integrated memory controller of the A64 gives it a realtime performance advantage within CAD, compared to one without.

To top it off, I'm thinking a high-end "non Quaddro" card will dust a low-end Quaddro. For the same price, more or less.

Since I use a Quadro card in 2 of my workstations, I'm confused by your statement.
Also a few well known workstation manufacturers (Dell & HP) also use Quadros in their rigs, what would suggest as a better non-quadro card?

 

[edcarman]

To help you out, here are some CAD and CAE related benchmarks. You could use them to compare your existing setup to get quantitative performance improvement numbers:

Pro/E Benchmark
SPECapc for Pro/E - This site also has benchmarks for SolidEdge etc.
ANSYS Benchmarks
The Differences between Workstation and Consumer Adapters (PDF) - Some good pictures explaining the differences

On the qualitative side, I have had experience running Pro/E and ANSYS using a low end CAD card at work (Quadro FX500/600) and a high end gaming card at home (6800GT). I use the latest WHQL certified drivers in both cases and the other system components are similar.
The 6800GT is obviously faster (newer generation, faster chip, more RAM), but I experience occasional graphic corruption issues with it. These can range from irritating, but not critical errors (occasional corruption of lines in wireframe views, problems with menus over windows) that can be solved with a screen refresh in Pro/E, to critical productivity affecting errors (graphical corruption of result plots in ANSYS, making them unpresentable to clients). The critical errors in particular mean that I would not even consider using a non-Quadro card at work.

 

[wwswimming]

i've worked in CAD since about 1988.

if i was asked to spec a system, i would go with -
E6600 $300
2 GB RAM, Corsair DDR2-800, C4, $300
nVidia 7600 or 7900 video card, $150 - $250

more at
http://users.tns.net/~equity/ztutoriaLz/workstation.htm

i've used a system with the ATI FireGL. whether you need
that firepower depends on the level of detail in what you're
modelling. and the stock gaming hardware will handle a
boatload of detail. don't forget they are built to render at
15-30 frames per second. when you're doing CAD, you're
usually looking at a configuration undergoing a design process,
essentially a single frame.

the most important thing is that the system not crash.

 

[pkme2]

Originally posted by: edcarman
To help you out, here are some CAD and CAE related benchmarks. You could use them to compare your existing setup to get quantitative performance improvement numbers:

Pro/E Benchmark
SPECapc for Pro/E - This site also has benchmarks for SolidEdge etc.
ANSYS Benchmarks
The Differences between Workstation and Consumer Adapters (PDF) - Some good pictures explaining the differences

On the qualitative side, I have had experience running Pro/E and ANSYS using a low end CAD card at work (Quadro FX500/600) and a high end gaming card at home (6800GT). I use the latest WHQL certified drivers in both cases and the other system components are similar.
The 6800GT is obviously faster (newer generation, faster chip, more RAM), but I experience occasional graphic corruption issues with it. These can range from irritating, but not critical errors (occasional corruption of lines in wireframe views, problems with menus over windows) that can be solved with a screen refresh in Pro/E, to critical productivity affecting errors (graphical corruption of result plots in ANSYS, making them unpresentable to clients). The critical errors in particular mean that I would not even consider using a non-Quadro card at work.

You can use whatever high end videocard for your system, if that's your intention.
A very large number of professionals will use either FireGL or Quadro cards for their CAD work because it gets the job done.
As edcarman said, you're doing the work for your clients, aside from what others think you should be using. You want to chance it with a 7600/7900 card; I'll stick with my Quadros and FireGL.

 

[SolidEd]

the hardware I'm planning to go with is on this thread if anyone cares to take a gander. I am still waiting on one quote, but so far it looks like I'm going with Dell. I just have to "justify" the purchases by explaining in some general terms why and how this new system is going to make us more productive and efficient as opposed to our current systems.



http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=27&threadid=1945678

 

[SolidEd]

Someone posted on a thread that the three main components of a CAD system where
1) CPU
2) Memory
3) Graphics

Can you guys help me or point me to existing literature to expand on that?

 

[pkme2]

If you're going with a Dell, you should be talking to the Dell rep instead of getting answers here. You got some general links to Cad workstations, but your rep will be working with you on what your needs and future plans might be.

I would get on a conference call, and work out the necessities and then the options in maintaining the companies goals and prospects. Your man at Dell should have all these areas covered, If not, go to IBM or HP.

Trying to justify shouldn't be a problem since your Dell rep, whoever he or she maybe, must be astute an individual to be able to prepare a quote that as I said before covering all your present and future uses on CAD workstations. I presume you're planning on leasing those babies?

 

[Operandi]

Originally posted by: SolidEd
Someone posted on a thread that the three main components of a CAD system where
1) CPU
2) Memory
3) Graphics

Can you guys help me or point me to existing literature to expand on that?

The only thing that would make a CAD system different then anything else for technical and functional reasons would be the GPU. If you check out that PNY .pdf and what others here have said pro level cards such as the Quadro have features that simply are not present on non pro cards; that?s the biggest difference.

The other difference is a design philosophy, CAD and other professional applications are typically run on work satiations. Work satiations are basically bigger over-built desktops systems. Over-built for reliability, stability, and performance, features and functions however are the same.

For a good work station you need to start with a solid foundation. A high-quality solid PSU (Seasonic, Enhance, PCP&C, Zippy, ect. A motherboard from a top-tier manufacture that won't skimp on design and components Intel, Asus, AOpen, Gigabyte, or MSI. A well built and roomy case. And lastely RAM from a known trusted manufacture, Crucial, Kingston, Corsair, Muskin, ect.

Opteron and Xeon CPUs do offer a bit more performance and go through more validation then Athlon and Pentuim/Core CPU but when is the last time you heard of a CPU being the root of a crash or bug? I would say desktop CPUs should be fine unless you have the budget to support a Xeon or Opteron system.

 

[acole1]

If you can show him your work now, (slow file load times, rendering, drawing, etc.) and then say something like, "these problems can be smoothed out and sped up to real time, so that I can get a file created and modified in real time, instead of waiting for X to load, or render," then IMHO it will have a larger impact.

If you can point out during the demo that, say, the chopping while you spin the object is GPU based, and a better than standard GPU will stop this from happening. If a file is taking a long time to open or close then maybe the HardDrive is to blame or the CPU might be too slow. Giving him hard examples of the problems you get while using what he would see as a fine machine, would be very powerful.

Just blabbing on about hardware specs isn't going to influence him much since he seems rather inept concerning computers, but he is probably a very bottom line kind of person. How is the expense going to make him money!?

If you show him practical, real life examples of how your current hardware is inhibiting your work by sitting him down and showing him, then I think your argument would be a lot more persuasive.

Then again, if you aren?t getting slow load times or having lags in rendering and drawing, then perhaps he is the one with the stronger point. It is nice to have good hardware, but from a business perspective, it isn't always the most cost effective thing.

If he wants to get into hardware specs, look at bandwidth numbers and compare them both for CPU and GPU since that is what influences most of your CAD performance. A fast HD is important for loading those huge files, and to argue motherboard and PSU, dependability is key.

I may have missed the point entirely, but GL

PS - I still say just get a Dell Precision There is a reason why they give them hardware different than Dimensions.

(Huge edit for clarity)

 

[SolidEd]

He's aware of the problems (slow load/save times and changing from one screen to another), but he wants me to try to quantify how much this new hardware/system is going to improve the problem. In other words he wants to see something like "this new system will make us XX% more productive and here are the reasons why."

Originally posted by: acole1
Just blabbing on about hardware specs isn't going to influence him much since he seems rather inept concerning computers, but he is probably a very bottom line kind of person. How is the expense going to make him money!?

Agreed, he doesn't want to hear tech jargon. The point of this is that I have to put it in general terms. For example, I need to explain how the CPU affects the use of CAD software, what our current limitations are and how the new proposed CPU/MOBO will help remove those inefficiencies. I need to do that atleast for the main three components listed above. I understand why (mostly in newer, faster, better terms) but having a hard time explaining it and also with the "how much better" part of it.

I know everyone is trying to help and I really appreciate it, but I am not asking for specific brand/model or hardware recommendations here. You can make those on the thread linked above if you'd like.

 

[Operandi]

Originally posted by: SolidEd
Agreed, he doesn't want to hear tech jargon. The point of this is that I have to put it in general terms. For example, I need to explain how the CPU affects the use of CAD software, what our current limitations are and how the new proposed CPU/MOBO will help remove those inefficiencies. I need to do that atleast for the main three components listed above. I understand why (mostly in newer, faster, better terms) but having a hard time explaining it and also with the "how much better" part of it.

I know everyone is trying to help and I really appreciate it, but I am not asking for specific brand/model or hardware recommendations here. You can make those on the thread linked above if you'd like.

Did I miss it somewhere or did you not list what you are currently working with? If we don't know what your reference point for "slow" is it?s pretty hard to give you and idea of what you can expect from new hardware.

 

[pkme2]

Originally posted by: SolidEd
He's aware of the problems (slow load/save times and changing from one screen to another), but he wants me to try to quantify how much this new hardware/system is going to improve the problem. In other words he wants to see something like "this new system will make us XX% more productive and here are the reasons why."

Originally posted by: acole1
Just blabbing on about hardware specs isn't going to influence him much since he seems rather inept concerning computers, but he is probably a very bottom line kind of person. How is the expense going to make him money!?

Agreed, he doesn't want to hear tech jargon. The point of this is that I have to put it in general terms. For example, I need to explain how the CPU affects the use of CAD software, what our current limitations are and how the new proposed CPU/MOBO will help remove those inefficiencies. I need to do that atleast for the main three components listed above. I understand why (mostly in newer, faster, better terms) but having a hard time explaining it and also with the "how much better" part of it.

I know everyone is trying to help and I really appreciate it, but I am not asking for specific brand/model or hardware recommendations here. You can make those on the thread linked above if you'd like.

If he's a practical down to earth type of guy, prices will mean nothing to him unless you show him the features and benefits of the new equipments' components.

It all comes down to time-saving and production, This is when you go to the experts and get their feedback.

Where are you now, where do you want to be down the road? How much will it cost? How much write off? Buy or lease? What benefit of a particular feature? Which you can't get unless you get it from the horse's mouth.

That's the primary reason you should be talking to a professional. You're just spinning your wheels if you think the answers are going to be found here.

Nobody really knows what your needs are unless that person is privy to your company's info. We can only suggest, but we can't solve your dilemna. Get with it.

 

[SolidEd]

I listed both current and proposed hardware on the other thread.

On this thread I am mainly looking for info related to what and why certain hardwares/specs are recommended for CAD use.

I hope I'm not comming off as ungrateful or confrontational and I appologize if I do. I'm just trying to clarify what I'm looking for.

thanks

 

[acole1]

Originally posted by: SolidEd
He's aware of the problems (slow load/save times and changing from one screen to another), but he wants me to try to quantify how much this new hardware/system is going to improve the problem. In other words he wants to see something like "this new system will make us XX% more productive and here are the reasons why."

Originally posted by: acole1
Just blabbing on about hardware specs isn't going to influence him much since he seems rather inept concerning computers, but he is probably a very bottom line kind of person. How is the expense going to make him money!?

Agreed, he doesn't want to hear tech jargon. The point of this is that I have to put it in general terms. For example, I need to explain how the CPU affects the use of CAD software, what our current limitations are and how the new proposed CPU/MOBO will help remove those inefficiencies. I need to do that atleast for the main three components listed above. I understand why (mostly in newer, faster, better terms) but having a hard time explaining it and also with the "how much better" part of it.

I know everyone is trying to help and I really appreciate it, but I am not asking for specific brand/model or hardware recommendations here. You can make those on the thread linked above if you'd like.

Wow he sounds like a PITA.

I would compare mainly the bandwidth between your current hardware and that of the new hardware.

I'm sure he will understand the concept of a manufacturing floor and how you want to make the production line as smooth as possible with little or no choke points. The system is only as fast as its slowest part.

I would lay out how the data flows through the machine (hard drive -> ram -> cpu -> gpu) and explain,

We have this 7200 RPM HD, a 10k RPM drive would get the data from the HD to the RAM faster because it spins that much faster. (You can look up exact specs to compare HD performance? RPM?s aren?t everything.)

Then the RAM, if there isn't enough, it won't be able to hold the drawing, so it will have to go back to the HD to get the drawing again, which takes a LOT more time comparatively, and the ram must be fast, or the CPU will be idle and will not work optimally.

The CPU then does the algorithmical work in calculating what to send to the GPU (which work closely together)... it needs to be fast or the GPU will be starved for info, and X CPU is faster than Y CPU by such and such an amount....

Then the GPU does most of the work to give it to your eyes... X GPU has this ram, processing power, and bandwidth compared to Y GPU which only has this processing power etc.... this is where most of the rendering goes on so this is a very important part (most important part?)...

PSU, Motherboard... the heart and soul of the computer providing stability and longevity.

Maybe something like that would work. Thats what I would do anyways.... you can add more detail, or less detail based on what you think he would like. Maybe some benchmarks from AT or THG would help backup your claims, and most stats for HD, GPU, CPU specs can be found at the mfg's website.

nVidia on CAD work
nVidia Quadro FX card comparisons

In the end he will have to trust you. Not everything can be boiled down to #'s and it would take an engineering degree for him to know everything he really wants to know. It can't all be explained in a proposal sadly enough.

Eh, well, I have threadcrapped for too long... time to find some work to do. Sorry about hogging the thread. Hope it was of at least some help!

 

[Operandi]

Originally posted by: SolidEd
I listed both current and proposed hardware on the other thread.

On this thread I am mainly looking for info related to what and why certain hardwares/specs are recommended for CAD use.

I hope I'm not comming off as ungrateful or confrontational and I appologize if I do. I'm just trying to clarify what I'm looking for.

thanks

Ok, I posted there also...

It looks like you have experience with both pro level cards and consumer cards, was there much of a performance difference?

In terms of CPUs, current chips offer nearly 2x or more the performance of what your 2.4GHZ P4 can offer so it's probably safe to assume that whatever wait times you have now could be cut in half.

 

[SolidEd]

thank you very much, that is exactly the kind of info I am looking for

 

[pkme2]

Have you got any input from the people who will using those workstations? If I had some terrific personel working with me, I sure would certainly ask for their input, before spending on unknown CAD machines.

You can spend a fortune on a rig and have it turn out to be dud. More like overkill, if certain components maybe overcompensated for. Like a 1GB GPU or the opposite 128MB GPU.
Some of the people I used to associate with may not be geniuses when it comes to computer tech, but their common sense is what I value most of all.

There's that phrase, COMMON SENSE. I've learned that there's not a lot of it going around nowadays, but this is good place for it.