C+D lightning lap 2014 is out...

[KentState]

I'm more impressed by how well the Stingray did as it has the least powerful engine of the cars in the top 1/4 of the list. The Z07 equipped car will have "cheater" tires also, but will probably be closer to the 918 than the Nismo GT-R.

 

[Pariah]

Not really a fair comparison, since you'd die on those in a rainstorm; camaro would drop heavily in the ranking if everyone was running rcomps.

Properly pretty terrible in the snow as well. They should rerun all the tests in the snow to get worst case scenario since anyone spending $75k on a track focused car will only be able to afford that one car, so lap times in the rain and snow are far more important than dry conditions...

 

[SSSnail]

-Ferrari brought a F12 on tires that are not currently available and still lost to the Viper. Ouch.

It's sad that Vipers have to be discounted to be sold...

 

[Wuzup101]

Not really a fair comparison, since you'd die on those in a rainstorm; camaro would drop heavily in the ranking if everyone was running rcomps.

It would probably drop down two places at best and loose to the 911 turbo s and maybe the stingray if stock size tires were maintained. Tires make a huge difference, but there is also a huge gap between the z28 and the Audi R8 V10 plus. The z28 still does have an ls7, cc brakes, spool valve shocks, and 305 tires all around. It's not exactly going to be slow on any track. I'm not sure I'd call that "dropping heavily."

Shit the vette bested the the Audi (well at least until it blew up) and had tires with a 300 tread wear rating (MPSS ZP run flats) vs 240 (Conti 5P not run flat) and is RWD with narrower rear tires than the AWD Audi. It also has a significant hp to weight disadvantage (with both cars having a similar weight and the Audi having almost 100 more hp).

 

[JCH13]

But reviews have little choice to compare cars stock. You're looking at a huge can of worms the moment you start swapping things around from what you get when you buy the car. I can make the same argument that brakes should be swapped out. Or maybe we should strip all the weight possible. Or run a different tune. etc.

I think you see the slippery slope that allowing *anything* but stock configuration would do.

I did not say that the testers should swap any components.

I said that the testing is flawed because of the tire differences.

I also said/implied that the OEM tires won't be on these cars for very long. I would opine that OEM tires in this group will last 25k miles or less, often much less (my UTQG180 tires last around 15k miles with mostly moderate driving). Basically all of these cars will require new tires within the first year or two, (unlike brakes, tunes, or gutting the interior) at which point the owner can make a serious performance upgrade or degrade without going out of their way.

You can keep twisting up what I've said, or you can acknowledge that lap time comparisons like this one aren't as meaningful as the publishers might have us believe; especially 1-2 years from now when these cars will all have new rubber on them anyway.

 

[996GT2]

Here's the list of tires used by the 6 cars:

Porsche 918: Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 (180 Treadwear)
GT-R: Dunlop SP Sport Maxx 600 DSST (200 Treadwear)
Viper: Pirelli P Zero Corsa: (60 Treadwear)
Ferrari F12: Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 (180 Treadwear)
Camaro Z/28: Pirelli P Zero Trofeo R (60 Treadwear)
911 Turbo S: Pirelli P Zero (220 Treadwear)

So if the Z/28 was using cheater tires, isn't the Viper also using cheater tires?

Give the 918 a set of those Trofeo Rs and it no doubt would have been at least a couple of seconds faster.

 

[JCH13]

Here's the list of tires used by the 6 cars:

Porsche 918: Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 (180 Treadwear)
GT-R: Dunlop SP Sport Maxx 600 DSST (200 Treadwear)
Viper: Pirelli P Zero Corsa: (60 Treadwear)
Ferrari F12: Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 (180 Treadwear)
Camaro Z/28: Pirelli P Zero Trofeo R (60 Treadwear)
911 Turbo S: Pirelli P Zero (220 Treadwear)

So if the Z/28 was using cheater tires, isn't the Viper also using cheater tires?

Yup.

I would go by the SCCA's rule of thumb - anything over 140 UTQG is a street tire, anything under is a race tire. It's a whole different level of performance and grip when straddling that line, including heat tolerance, which makes a big difference on a track like VIR.

 

[96Firebird]

Guess some of the other makes should have offered better tire options.

 

[monkeydelmagico]

I'm more impressed by how well the Stingray did as it has the least powerful engine of the cars in the top 1/4 of the list. The Z07 equipped car will have "cheater" tires also, but will probably be closer to the 918 than the Nismo GT-R.

Was thinking the same thing. Z07, in the corvette tradition, is going to be ALOT of car for not alot of $$$ (relatively speaking).

 

[MixMasterTang]

Why are people freaked out about what tires certain cars are using and the effect on the lap times? Do you think these lap times really matter in any way except for paper bragging rights? Are you just mad a Camaro beat your favorite car on a track that you'll most likely never drive any car on anyways?

 

[Imported]

Yup.

I would go by the SCCA's rule of thumb - anything over 140 UTQG is a street tire, anything under is a race tire. It's a whole different level of performance and grip when straddling that line, including heat tolerance, which makes a big difference on a track like VIR.

Isn't it changing to 200 UTQG soon for SCCA? I haven't kept up with rules for a couple years as I haven't been competing. Though I hear RS3s are just being relabeled.

I agree that it'd be nice to see Tire Rack do this same test with each car on the same type of tires. Michelin Pilot Super Sports or Direzza ZIIs or something.

 

[_Rick_]

Why are people freaked out about what tires certain cars are using and the effect on the lap times? Do you think these lap times really matter in any way except for paper bragging rights? Are you just mad a Camaro beat your favorite car on a track that you'll most likely never drive any car on anyways?

No, I don't think it has anything to do with that.
Rather it's about the fact that the claim of the Camaro being fastest has to be taken with the grain of salt, that those tires will not last nearly as long, as those on other cars. And that if tires were equal, the ranking in track times would be different.
Especially for track times this is relevant, since many people will not put their car on track with stock tires on, but rather switch to something more grippy.
Also, in rainy conditions the results may have been wildly different.

The problem is essentially, that a claim is being made that is near-worthless, and it's being sold as fact by the authors. Arguing over the setup of an experiment, which shows only a very limited view on things is only normal.

WRC cars for example, are kind of road legal, they have to pass a minimum inspection, I believe, to be allowed to travel on the road segments between stages. You wouldn't compare one against an Audi R8 though, and expect a useful result.

 

[Jimzz]

Yup.

I would go by the SCCA's rule of thumb - anything over 140 UTQG is a street tire, anything under is a race tire. It's a whole different level of performance and grip when straddling that line, including heat tolerance, which makes a big difference on a track like VIR.

How is that policed? The UTQG rating it set by the tire maker. They could call it a 200 tire yet another company would call the same tire 100.

Yea there is a standard that the Gov has set up but anybody that knows the UTQG set by the maker is never really tested or called out.

Isn't it changing to 200 UTQG soon for SCCA? I haven't kept up with rules for a couple years as I haven't been competing. Though I hear RS3s are just being relabeled.

I agree that it'd be nice to see Tire Rack do this same test with each car on the same type of tires. Michelin Pilot Super Sports or Direzza ZIIs or something.

Yep that's all tire makers will do if they sell a lot to people that need a certain spec.
Whats that our 180 tire does not meet spec anymore.... hey look we just retested and it meets the 200 spec now. how lucky is that!!!

 

[MixMasterTang]

No, I don't think it has anything to do with that.
Rather it's about the fact that the claim of the Camaro being fastest has to be taken with the grain of salt, that those tires will not last nearly as long, as those on other cars. And that if tires were equal, the ranking in track times would be different.
Especially for track times this is relevant, since many people will not put their car on track with stock tires on, but rather switch to something more grippy.
Also, in rainy conditions the results may have been wildly different.

The problem is essentially, that a claim is being made that is near-worthless, and it's being sold as fact by the authors. Arguing over the setup of an experiment, which shows only a very limited view on things is only normal.

WRC cars for example, are kind of road legal, they have to pass a minimum inspection, I believe, to be allowed to travel on the road segments between stages. You wouldn't compare one against an Audi R8 though, and expect a useful result.

I still don't see the issue. You're more than welcome to get all of those cars together and perform any test you wish and publish the results. It's from a magazine that wants to sell magazines, this isn't a court case or even some sort of actual competition.

 

[tweakmonkey]

Here's the list of tires used by the 6 cars:

Porsche 918: Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 (180 Treadwear)
GT-R: Dunlop SP Sport Maxx 600 DSST (200 Treadwear)
Viper: Pirelli P Zero Corsa: (60 Treadwear)
Ferrari F12: Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 (180 Treadwear)
Camaro Z/28: Pirelli P Zero Trofeo R (60 Treadwear)
911 Turbo S: Pirelli P Zero (220 Treadwear)

So if the Z/28 was using cheater tires, isn't the Viper also using cheater tires?

Give the 918 a set of those Trofeo Rs and it no doubt would have been at least a couple of seconds faster.

Yep the Viper was also "cheating" in that sense and explains why both those cars totally whipped on their competition -- if the other cars in their HP/weight bracket had the same tires it might be a different story. Can you imagine the GTR on slicks??

I've always thought it was smart for OEMs to include super sticky tires as the original equipment on top tier sports cars. Most people won't drive them 15k miles/year so it's OK typically that the tires will only last 1/3 as long as the other performance cars. It makes a massive difference in braking/G/lap times when you are running slicks versus street tires and makes the car look a lot better on paper than a competitor running a more sensible street tire.

 

[JCH13]

Isn't it changing to 200 UTQG soon for SCCA? I haven't kept up with rules for a couple years as I haven't been competing. Though I hear RS3s are just being relabeled.

I agree that it'd be nice to see Tire Rack do this same test with each car on the same type of tires. Michelin Pilot Super Sports or Direzza ZIIs or something.

2015 I believe it's chaning.

I still don't see the issue. You're more than welcome to get all of those cars together and perform any test you wish and publish the results. It's from a magazine that wants to sell magazines, this isn't a court case or even some sort of actual competition.

I never said there was an 'issue.' I just stated some observations. Why does it have to be taken at more than face value?

Yep the Viper was also "cheating" in that sense and explains why both those cars totally whipped on their competition -- if the other cars in their HP/weight bracket had the same tires it might be a different story. Can you imagine the GTR on slicks??

I've always thought it was smart for OEMs to include super sticky tires as the original equipment on top tier sports cars. Most people won't drive them 15k miles/year so it's OK typically that the tires will only last 1/3 as long as the other performance cars. It makes a massive difference in braking/G/lap times when you are running slicks versus street tires and makes the car look a lot better on paper than a competitor running a more sensible street tire.

Precisely.

 

[railer]

Why are people freaked out about what tires certain cars are using and the effect on the lap times? Do you think these lap times really matter in any way except for paper bragging rights? Are you just mad a Camaro beat your favorite car on a track that you'll most likely never drive any car on anyways?

I'm sure the last point is true for many people.

Motor Trend just did a quick test of the Z/28 with and without the stock Z/28 rubber.
Unfortunately they didn't do any lap times.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests...o_the_tires_make_the_car/braking_skidpad.html

There's a lot more to the z/28 than just sticky tires.

 

[JCH13]

About UTQG ratings:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=48

They are determined based on a combination of testing, interpolation/prediction, and sales department optimism.

 

[SSSnail]

Guess some of the other makes should have offered better cheaters tire options.

I think every sports car manufacturers should just have cheaters tires option, so in comparos like these, fan bois can just say ”well, it's factory option” and not argue.

 

[xBiffx]

I've always thought it was smart for OEMs to include super sticky tires as the original equipment on top tier sports cars. Most people won't drive them 15k miles/year so it's OK typically that the tires will only last 1/3 as long as the other performance cars. It makes a massive difference in braking/G/lap times when you are running slicks versus street tires and makes the car look a lot better on paper than a competitor running a more sensible street tire.

I dunno, I owned an IS300 and drove that 30k miles a year. Tires were a complete bitch to replace every 6 months or so @ $1200-$1500 a set plus alignment. No point in buying a car that just sits there, IMHO.

 

[TridenT]

I was impressed with the Z28 until I read about the tire differences and that the Z28 is a stripped out track day car.

Back to the drawing board...

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

The delta between the 918 and everything else is insane. It's almost 8 seconds faster than the F12, and 15 MPH faster, at its peak speed, than the second-fastest car. Obviously the LaFerrari and P1 are its real competition, not the other cars in this test, but that performance is just nuts.

 

[Wuzup101]

I was impressed with the Z28 until I read about the tire differences and that the Z28 is a stripped out track day car.

Back to the drawing board...

Were you planning on buying one?

 

[TridenT]

Were you planning on buying one?

It wasn't on the radar until I saw those numbers. Now that it's obvious that it's just better tires and that the car is stripped out... I'm not going to bother even looking at it.

If I am going to spend $75k on a car that is basically a track car... I'll build up my own.

 

[railer]

It wasn't on the radar until I saw those numbers. Now that it's obvious that it's just better tires and that the car is stripped out... I'm not going to bother even looking at it.

If I am going to spend $75k on a car that is basically a track car... I'll build up my own.

ROFL. Sure it was. Spend 76.1k instead of 75k, and the z28 is equipped like a normal Camaro; not stripped at all. If you think the difference between a 35k 1le package that you can't afford, and a 75k z28 package that you really can't afford, is "sticky tires".....then just go buy a Hyundai Tiberion and enjoy your new ride.

This is an interesting track comparison between the z/28 and GTR track pack. Randy Pobst drives both, and has great insight each car. Skip to 9:15 to start.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqkyWhVBSKU