Bye, Bye Tax Cut

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jjm

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Ornery - I thought the Republicans controlled the whole shooting match now. That means we're guaranteed full payment from Dubaya, right? You're not one of those types who will start whining about those obstructionists in the minority party! That would be like, hmmmm, let's see...the last 8 years.

Rather than whine, why not honestly talk about what you think will happen. What will get through Congress and what won't?

By the way, Greenspan is a Republican. I'll bet the Republican base is just ticked off that one of their own put the screws to Dubaya.
 

Russ

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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<< Off the main topic, I know you keep harping on the slowing economy by calling it a recession, but however you measure it, we are still not in a recession. >>



No, however you and the ivory tower economists measure it, we aren't. Get out in to the REAL world and talk to the people that actually know what's going on - that don't sit on their asses and count beans; business owners.

The recession started the beginning of Q3 last year. Bank on it.



<< How will Jr get his $1.6 trillion tax cut plan passed? >>



Since we are in recession, and it's going to get worse because Greenspan waited FAR too long to react, he'll get it passed as a stimulus to rectify the Fed's stupidity.

Russ, NCNE
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
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Latimes
&quot;House Minority Leader Richard A. Gephardt of Missouri and Senate Democratic Leader Tom Daschle of South Dakota said they could support a bigger tax cut than the roughly $300 billion over 10 years that they supported last year.
While declining to specify a higher figure, Gephardt said: &quot;We're now looking at larger amounts than that because of the enlarged surplus projections and because of the slowdown in the economy.&quot;

The economy is slowing, interest rates cuts are nice but I don't buy on credit. Tax cuts will benifit all. Look at it historically, every tax cut has resulted in increased tax revenue.

edit
BTW Al Gore is the Jr. Pres. Elect Bush is not. You really should try to get some facts correct before trying to dish it out around here.
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
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Lowering interest rates, i.e. using monetary policy, is an order of magnitude more effective than using fiscal policy, i.e. tax cuts. Unless taxes were cut retroactively, you'll have to wait until 2002 for any credits to be applied, and second quarter 2001 for any reduced rates to be felt. That won't stimulate the economy as quickly as an interest rate drop or in the amount necessary to stave off recession. Most of the money should be used to pay down the deficit while we can. Conservatives are SOOO spend happy.

XeroxMan:

You NEED a tax cut if you paid $12K in taxes. You also need to find ways to cut your tax burden. 33.3% sounds a bit high to me.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,393
8,552
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chess9, interest rates are monetary policy. taxes and spending is fiscal policy.

if the drop in the economy started in q3 2000, then we're in a real recession. a recession is not a depression, it is positive growth that is lower than the previous growth trend. the previous trend, that we had up until the later part of this year, was 5% or so. now we're at 2% or so. thats a recession.

russ, don't know what you have against ivory tower economists.



--elfenix, b.a. economics 2000.
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
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ElFenix:

Oops, I fixed it. Don't post before you've had your coffee. :) Thanks for catching that so early.

Yeah, we're in a small recession, no doubt. And the tech sectors are going to be hit even harder this year. I see the recession deepening until June at least. But lowering interest rates is the best way to jump start the economy.
 

jjm

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
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etech - As I have stated in multiple previous posts, I am well aware who is the real &quot;Jr.&quot; I refer to Dubaya as a Jr because I consider him inferior to his father in every way.

As for the increased revenue argument (the Laffer theory), you are absolutely correct that a cut in rates sometimes resulted in increased tax revenue. But every study I have ever read has shown it to be a temporary benefit to the Treasury. And the biggest differential came from cuts in the capital gains rates as investors held off selling appreciated assets until the new lower capital gains rate kicked in. The problem is that tax revenue after the initial pop was less than expected.

The incredible deficits run up during the Raygun years are a case study. Spending increased and the rate of tax revenue growth fell far short of the Laffer expectation.

I think your post demonstrates quite well that only limited tax cuts will get passed and that only those most favored by Democrats will succeed. $300 billion or so is far less than the $1.6 trillion that Jr claims he will achieve. When the dust settles, the cuts will look a lot more like the targeted cuts proposed by the Democrats than the across-the-board major reductions in rates proposed by Republicans. And, if the economy is slowing, that means the surpluses will evaporate, making it even tougher for Jr to justify a large tax cut. It will be far too easy for the Democrats to demonize it further by showing how the largest portion will go to the so-called &quot;rich.&quot; Who cares how they define who is rich? The public overwhelmingly sympathizes with that argument.

With lower expectations for the surplus, Jr will be forced to choose among his tax cut, prescription drug, education and Social Security programs. I am betting that major compromise will be on the tax cuts. The public (other than hardcore conservatives) will accept compromises on tax cuts far more readily than his other programs. Remember, he told us all he wants to be the president of all the people. He'll use that as cover.

Republicans will cave in to the Democrats because they will be desperate to say they got something done while they were numerically in control of government. The Wall Street Journal lamented that point in a recent editorial where the editors encouraged Congress to stand up for the full slate of Jr's initiatives, but then the editors lamented that it was highly unlikely that the Republicans would even try.

ElFenix - A recession is two consecutive quarters of declining GDP.

&quot;Generally defined by economists as two quarters of negative growth in the gross national product.&quot; Source: http://db.uia.org/cgi-shl/oicgi/INET_UIAF

A slowing in the rate of growth is a slowdown in economic activity, not a recession. Though some have argued that a very serious slowdown coupled with large declines in wages and living standards might be a better definition of recession. Even using the alternate definition, we're still not in a recession on a national level.

Some industries and regions of the country might actually be in recessions, but the national growth rate remains positive. By the way, I think the Fed went too far with its tightening and now is trying to keep the economy from slowing too much. That said, the high rate of growth we saw the previous two years was not sustainable anyway.

Russ - See above. Because you seem to sneer at anyone you think lacks the same perspective as you, I work in institutional finance, and my wife owns a business. I can speak with credibility (at least in your interpretation of such things) on these matters.
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
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JJM:

By the time we get the CORRECT numbers (they are often revised afterwards), we are in a recession. When I look at slowing car sales-I've been looking for a car and the lots are full-and rising inventories, and a slowdown in the building sector even in the South, it suggests that we've been in a real decline for at least 6 months. (NB: Car sales were strong through the third quarter of 2000 for most car makers, and a few even had strong fourth quarters.)Weren't retail sales off badly for the third quarter and just modest for fourth quarter? Those people are starting to hurt.

Are you saying that you don't think we are in a recession, or are you saying we haven't had two successive quarters of declining GDP? :) I don't trust the numbers for the latter technical definition of a recession.

I think Russ is right about the average businessman often knowing what's happening before the economists and politicians. Talk to the Chamber of Commerce guys and you will hear their worries. The manager of our local Buick dealership told me on Monday he thinks sales will be very flat this quarter. He let two salesmen go the same day. I also looked at the Lincolns and the salesman I spoke with said sales were strong through November, but they were dissappointed with December. They also have a very large inventory and used Lincolns are quite cheap. (I'm majorly tempted to get one of those gas guzzlers 'cause they are so comfortable.)

Anyway, I think we are going to see a big fight over tax issues in Congress. Bush will have problems with his moderate Republican colleagues in the House and Senate. The moderates and liberals really won the majority of the popular vote which means many of those guys have seen the writing on the wall-don't do anything stupid this year because next year you may need to get re-elected. The right wing conservatives are going to push hard for a large tax cut and will be very upset if they don't get it. Bush seems to be in their camp right now, but we'll see how much staying power he has and how big of a compromise he'll agree to. He'll agree to something significantly less than hoped for because his right wing has no where to go and they have a lot of other issues they want to address.
 

jjm

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Chess9 - I think there are regions of the country and some industries in the early to mid portion of recession already. But I don't think we're there on a national level just yet. I think we will be by the middle of the year, unless the Fed can avert it.

Look for the Fed to move quickly with two more rate cuts in very short order. Another 0.25% in late January and at least another 0.25% reduction by March. These will not be enough to stem the slowdown, but they might just be enough to avoid two straight quarters of contraction. I think the odds are still pretty high that we'll slip into a recession anyway. But the financial market's reaction clearly shows that it still has some faith in the Fed.

There will always be concern about the numbers. But do keep in mind that economists mostly rely on real-time surveys, not the accounting reports issued by companies. A very good number is the weekly report of jobless claims. It's easy to count correctly and has been proven pretty reliable. While claims are trending up, they have not yet reached the level that would suggest we are actually in a recession (certain regions being exceptions). But the trend suggests we might get there within 3 to 6 months.

I agree that politically and economically, Jr is not likely to get his tax cut package. But I also think it would serve him and the country better to move more quickly to a pragmatic compromise position. He would get all he is going to get anyway, but the implementation would occur sooner.
 

FettsBabe

Diamond Member
Oct 21, 1999
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Everyone wants to gang up on the rich, but I would only get a 25% tax cut and I'm far from being rich! Some people would get a 100% tax cut, thats pretty damn good. However, I do understand that low income families need it more than me so I'm happy with the 25%, but to ban tax cuts for the wealthy is insane. They work for their money too. :|
 

FettsBabe

Diamond Member
Oct 21, 1999
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And if you really want to help the poor why don't we push for a bill that raises the income a person can make to qualify for a Pell Grant, so we can educate the low income and move them out of poverty instead of just giving a tax cut. The income for a Pell Grant Family is around $12,000. WTF?
 

jjm

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
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FettsBabe - Do you think GWB will succeed in getting all of his plan implemented? How and when? Or, which portions will pass and when? I think if he insists on trying to get &quot;all or nothing,&quot; there will be a protracted battle where he'll ultimately get only a portion of what he wants anyway. That might actually prolong the recession while the government is locked in tax battles without any ability to get anything else done. What do you think?
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
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jjm,

I think you need to looks at Bush's record in Texas. He has spent both terms with a democrate house/senate. The head democrat in Texas endorsed Bush when he ran for his second term. I doubt he is going to take an all or nothing plan. Lets hope just hope the
democrats dont take the all or nothing attitude you think Bush is going to have. It works boths ways.
 

Shazam

Golden Member
Dec 15, 1999
1,136
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<< Since we are in recession, and it's going to get worse because Greenspan waited FAR too long to react, he'll get it passed as a stimulus to rectify the Fed's stupidity. >>

Russ is absolutely correct here. Greenspan has also come out in the last few days saying that tax cuts could be supported by him (eg. he's flip flopped his position).
 

FettsBabe

Diamond Member
Oct 21, 1999
3,708
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To tell you bluntly,

I think if the gov rep's would get off their arse and work to help the citizens instead of their own political career then I think the tax proposal would pass.

I also think if the Demo's really cared about the average married family then the marriage penalty would be corrected too.

Clinton had the opportunity to help families with tuition, but he basically did nothing. All talk and no action (except with Monica-HEHE).

Bush has excellent advisors and a wonderful staff, so I don't think he will have a problem in the White House.

 

jjm

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,505
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Shazam - Link? I have not seen that one from Greenspan. He has stated in the past that he'd reluctantly go along with modest tax reductions if the only alternative was higher spending. In fact, there are strong suggestions that Greenspan took the rate cutting action as dramatically as he did just to put Dubaya in his place. In other words, he is asserting that it is the Fed who controls the economy; back off W!

Charrison and FettsBabe - I think the Democrats will play an extremely partisan game. I do not think that bipartisanship will last longer than 30 seconds after Jr is sworn in. As others have pointed out on this board, the hostility between the parties dates back long before the Clinton years. There is no reason to expect there won't be more of the same until one party gets two-thirds of the Congress.

As well, I have seen that Democrats have already offered suggestions of what they would pass: some marriage tax relief; changes to but not elimination of the estate tax; higher IRA and 401K limits; greater portability of retirement accounts; reductions in rates for the lowest wage earners; slight rate reductions for others. All linked, however, to the expectation that surpluses will continue. All that seems like a framework for compromise if you ask me. And Jr's own plan included linking tax cuts to continuing surpluses. His only reaction has been to assert that the economy still needs his entire plan. Who is being obstructionist?
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
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<< And Jr's own plan included linking tax cuts to continuing surpluses. His only reaction has been to assert that the economy still needs his entire plan. Who is being obstructionist? >>




Lets see, the republicans have a plan they want to stick too, the democrats have a plan they want to stick too.


How can you call either an obsturctionist.

 

FettsBabe

Diamond Member
Oct 21, 1999
3,708
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<< I think the Democrats will play an extremely partisan game. >>



Thats exactly why there should be term limits, so we can eliminate career politicians in the Senate and HOR.

I think Greenspan will side with Bush. Regardless of the tax cut proposal and interest rate changes.
 

jjm

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,505
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Charrison - I agree that they are both going to try to pound each other. They are both going to play the partisan gambit to the hilt. Yes, they are both obstructionist.

Fettsbabe - I think there should be term limits too. I will have to find a link, but there were several Congress people (of both parties, I think) who signed pledges not to serve more than two terms and conveniently decided not to honor that pledge in the last election. Gotta love those politicians.

I really do not think Greenspan will come out supporting Bush's plan. Jr's very first Washington call was to Greenspan, trying to get him to throw his support behind tax cuts. It's been two weeks, and the only reaction from Uncle Al was a dramatic rate cut that a number of people see as an effort, at least in part, to sand bag W.
 

FettsBabe

Diamond Member
Oct 21, 1999
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I don't see how it stops or hurts Bush. I think something needed to be done immediately and he was the person that had the power to do it. If Bush was in office at this time I think the outcome would have been a little different with both of them working together to get the economy rolling. I don't think Greenspan did this for any reason other than to help the economy.
 

jjm

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,505
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Shazam - Sorry, but that link does not support your assertion. A former Fed vice-chair is speculating about how Greenspan might change his stance. There is no evidence that he has publicly stated any change in his position.

FettsBabe - I agree that Greenspan was looking to help the economy, but I also think he was letting the steam out of Dubaya's push for tax cuts. We can disagree, because no one knows for sure. I just think I have offered more support for this interpretation, especially given Greenspan's prior public stance on the issue.

As for working together, I really don't think that's Greenspan's style. Over his entire term he has gone to great lengths to avoid any indication that the Fed was influenced by any politician. He always patiently listened, but he stated many times that the Fed would exercise its sole discretion in matters to meet its Congressionally-imposed mandate to fight inflation as its top priority.
 

FettsBabe

Diamond Member
Oct 21, 1999
3,708
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<< but he stated many times that the Fed would exercise its sole discretion in matters to meet its Congressionally-imposed mandate to fight inflation as its top priority. >>



I would hope that would be his priority since its his job. I don't think Bush would try to bully him into making a decision that helps Bush. I think both are mature adults and can and will work together.
 

JellyBaby

Diamond Member
Apr 21, 2000
9,159
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<< Over his entire term he has gone to great lengths to avoid any indication that the Fed was influenced by any politician. >>

jjm,

Huh? He all but forced Clinton to raise taxes during Bill's first term. If you feel Greenspan is immune to ego and politics you're wrong.

Anyway, no one will see meaningful tax relief under any R or D administration. It's all fiction and will be until we elect officials who care more for their country than the current crop of crooks.