By 2025 cars will need to average 54.5 mpg. How would this be done?

[91TTZ]

My 1985 Honda Civic got 50 miles per gallon.

They went backwards on gas mileage to line the pockets of the oil thug industry.

No, that's not why the went backwards.

Cars in the 1970's got horrible gas mileage because gas was so cheap. When the oil crisis hit gas prices skyrocketed. All of a sudden consumers demanded more fuel efficient cars and automakers produced them. By the early 1980's you had a lot of small, efficient cars available. But once gasoline got cheaper again people once again demanded large vehicles, and the automakers gave them what they wanted.

http://inflationdata.com/Inflation/images/charts/Oil/Gasoline_inflation_chart.htm

The oil companies make money either way, no conspiracy required. When gas is cheap people buy bigger cars. When gas is expensive they buy more efficient cars.

 

[LTC8K6]

That 85 Civic got 50mpg while spewing out pollution...

A modern Civic may only get 41mpg, but it pollutes far less.

 

[Kelvrick]

That 85 Civic got 50mpg while spewing out pollution...

A modern Civic may only get 41mpg, but it pollutes far less.

And being far safer and having more "convenience" features.

 

[Howard]

Small car, aerodynamic, small turbodiesel with some sort of KERS, LRR tires, ULSAB, Al, or composite body. Oh, and expensive.

 

[lakedude]

Sure, make a car the absolute worst thing to drive, with barely any room for cargo let alone a family, and make it have an even more ridiculous price tag.

No thank you. I'll stick with my old cars that I could rebuild multiple times and refuel even more for the cost of the new putt-putt and still are fun to drive.

Stupid government.

It is beyond amazing to me that anyone on a computer BBS could have such a backward opinion on vehicle technology. We thrive on new tech when it comes to computer hardware. Not sure why the same thing does not apply to vehicles.

 

[SparkyJJO]

It is beyond amazing to me that anyone on a computer BBS could have such a backward opinion on vehicle technology. We thrive on new tech when it comes to computer hardware. Not sure why the same thing does not apply to vehicles.

I have no problem with new tech, when it is better.

A tiny little engine in a tiny little econobox is not better, IMO. For some, maybe it is, but not me. I'll drive what I want, you can drive what you want, and we'll both be happy. But no, some people won't be happy until they can force me to drive what they want me to drive, and that is what I have a serious issue with.

 

[lakedude]

I have no problem with new tech, when it is better.

2012 Toyota Camry Hybrid LE

200 horsepower
43 city/39 hwy mpg
around $25,500

IMO this is awesome technology.

The Camry was substantially improved for 2012. Toyota gave it more power, better mileage and updated the looks as well.

Don't know if you can rebuild the engine but being a Toyota it is a safe bet you won't need to for quite a while.

 

[MagickMan]

Like I was saying in another thread, some cars are already almost there. I was recently in a Jetta TDI and it gets almost 45mpg hwy. It didn't suck to drive, either.

Well, it didn't suck badly. 😀

 

[mafia]

So does this mean the end of high performance vehicles? Or will a high performance vehicle be exempt from this stupid law?

 

[KentState]

So does this mean the end of high performance vehicles? Or will a high performance vehicle be exempt from this stupid law?

Just like gas-guzzler tax, it can easily be passed on to the buyer. I really don't have a problem paying the $600 penalty if given the option.

 

[mafia]

Just like gas-guzzler tax, it can easily be passed on to the buyer. I really don't have a problem paying the $600 penalty if given the option.

I see. But isn't that a loophole? For example, the car manufacturer could sell you a cheap car which doesn't meet the fuel standards and charge you the $600 dollar fee, but you would still save over a vehicle that meets the fuel standards because the cheaper less efficient vehicle costs less to produce and sell.

 

[Ryan]

That 85 Civic got 50mpg while spewing out pollution...

A modern Civic may only get 41mpg, but it pollutes far less.

That 85 civic also had the structural integrity of a beer can.

 

[Ryan]

Realize that the 50+mpg standard is in CAFE standards - CAFE is not comparable to the EPA mpg rating cars are currently rated at (and most of you are comparing it to).

http://www.insideline.com/car-news/cafe-standards-likely-to-bring-costlier-cars-fuel-savings.html

By 2025, automakers will have to deliver more efficient passenger vehicles that average the equivalent of 54.5 mpg. (For lots of complicated reasons, that will boil down to 36 mpg on the EPA window sticker.)

36mpg is not that difficult to achieve.

Time to repeat this again, since the discussion constantly seems to drift off and people miss this fact.

 

[lakedude]

Time to repeat this again, since the discussion constantly seems to drift off and people miss this fact.

For lots of complicated reasons, that will boil down to 36 mpg on the EPA window sticker.

The 200 horsepower 41 mpg (combined) Camry is already there. You give nothing up. It is a decent sized, comfortable car with enough power.

The $15,500 Elantra is already pretty close without using hybrid technology. It makes 148 hp and gets 29/40/33 mpg city/hwy/combined. This is one of the best values on the road. Darn nice car for the money.

The Prius, Civic, Insight and Fusion Hybrids all easily hit the mark.

The V-Dub Golf and Jetta Diesels are in the ballpark as well @ 34 mpg...

So most of this thread consists of a bunch of whining and name calling for no reason.

 

[Doppel]

The 200 horsepower 41 mpg (combined) Camry is already there. You give nothing up. It is a decent sized, comfortable car with enough power.

The $15,500 Elantra is already pretty close without using hybrid technology. It makes 148 hp and gets 29/40/33 mpg city/hwy/combined. This is one of the best values on the road. Darn nice car for the money.

The Prius, Civic, Insight and Fusion Hybrids all easily hit the mark.

The V-Dub Golf and Jetta Diesels are in the ballpark as well @ 34 mpg...

So most of this thread consists of a bunch of whining and name calling for no reason.

Pretty much your last sentence.

Don't forget the volt and leaf 😀

 

[SparkyJJO]

2012 Toyota Camry Hybrid LE

200 horsepower
43 city/39 hwy mpg
around $25,500

IMO this is awesome technology.

The Camry was substantially improved for 2012. Toyota gave it more power, better mileage and updated the looks as well.

Don't know if you can rebuild the engine but being a Toyota it is a safe bet you won't need to for quite a while.

I don't care for hybrids 😛 And the Camry is as fun to drive as a turnip IMO.

Like I said, if you like and want that car, that's perfectly fine. But for me, no thanks 😀 Just don't tell me what car I must drive, I won't tell you what you must drive, and we'll all be happy 😀

 

[1prophet]

2012 Toyota Camry Hybrid LE

200 horsepower
43 city/39 hwy mpg
around $25,500

IMO this is awesome technology.

The Camry was substantially improved for 2012. Toyota gave it more power, better mileage and updated the looks as well.

Don't know if you can rebuild the engine but being a Toyota it is a safe bet you won't need to for quite a while.

Awesome indeed, as long as you can trade it in while still under warranty, feel sorry for the second and third hand owners who will be faced with major repairs on those vehicles and are upside down finance wise.

 

[Doppel]

Awesome indeed, as long as you can trade it in while still under warranty, feel sorry for the second and third hand owners who will be faced with major repairs on those vehicles and are upside down finance wise.

WTF? What are these major repairs? Have you read nothing in the thread? Why are you spreading completely ill-founded FUD about hybrids?

Hmm, what's this I see? http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2012/04/top-picks-2012/index.htm

Some of you people would still be using typewriters and touting their superiority because of the invulnerability to power outages if you hadn't been dragged kicking and screaming into the computer age.

 

[lakedude]

I've been fortunate enough to have had a nice selection of cars over the years but until fairly recently never a Honda or Toyota. In 2005 I got a Honda Civic Hybrid and after years of trouble free driving I replaced my pickup with a Honda as well. Just replaced the old Briggs powered mower with a CARB rated Honda powered unit. There is a reason! Their stuff just runs. It ain't fancy or pretty or special but it works with no problems or annoyances.

The hybrid technology actually simplifies vehicle design. Starters and alternators are replaced with a much more reliable brushless, starter, generator, pancake motor. The big brushless motor has no gears. It is has enough torque that it does not need gears. It just grabs the engine and starts it instantly. The same motor does double duty and functions as an alternator as well. Starters and alternators are common trouble spots on conventional vehicles.

I admit that the traction battery is a worry on older vehicles. Fortunately Honda includes a regular 12v starter in addition to the big brushless motor so you can start the car with the standard 12v battery if the big pack goes out.

 

[Doppel]

I've been fortunate enough to have had a nice selection of cars over the years but until fairly recently never a Honda or Toyota. In 2005 I got a Honda Civic Hybrid and after years of trouble free driving I replaced my pickup with a Honda as well. Just replaced the old Briggs powered mower with a CARB rated Honda powered unit. There is a reason! Their stuff just runs. It ain't fancy or pretty or special but it works with no problems or annoyances.

The hybrid technology actually simplifies vehicle design. Starters and alternators are replaced with a much more reliable brushless, starter, generator, pancake motor. The big brushless motor has no gears. It is has enough torque that it does not need gears. It just grabs the engine and starts it instantly. The same motor does double duty and functions as an alternator as well. Starters and alternators are common trouble spots on conventional vehicles.

I admit that the traction battery is a worry on older vehicles. Fortunately Honda includes a regular 12v starter in addition to the big brushless motor so you can start the car with the standard 12v battery if the big pack goes out.

Yep, and in something like the Prius the general wear on the engine is comparatively light since the electric motor is taking a lot of the load. Brakes are proven to last much longer, too. I can't speak for the 2nd gen, but I know the 3rd doesn't even have any belts at all (just checked, 2nd still had one for at least noe thing). The AC is run on electric, as is power steering on 3rd.

 

[lakedude]

Yep, and in something like the Prius the general wear on the engine is comparatively light since the electric motor is taking a lot of the load. Brakes are proven to last much longer, too. I can't speak for the 2nd gen, but I know the 3rd doesn't even have any belts at all (just checked, 2nd still had one for at least noe thing). The AC is run on electric, as is power steering on 3rd.

Oh yeah, the beltless design of the current generation Prius is awesome. Got electric PS on the Honda but Toyota took it a step farther and eliminated the belt completely.

Brakes absolutely last longer because the regenerative motor is slowing you down instead of the brakes. Power goes back into the system instead of being wasted wearing out your friction brakes.

I'm baffled as to why anyone would not like hybrids. There is nothing not to like!

 

[JCH13]

Oh yeah, the beltless design of the current generation Prius is awesome. Got electric PS on the Honda but Toyota took it a step farther and eliminated the belt completely.

Brakes absolutely last longer because the regenerative motor is slowing you down instead of the brakes. Power goes back into the system instead of being wasted wearing out your friction brakes.

I'm baffled as to why anyone would not like hybrids. There is nothing not to like!

Heinous performance, vehicle dynamics, and feel; little associated tuning culture, polarizing looks (I think it looks awful), and the possibility (albeit very small) of serious danger from a failed/damaged battery pack.

 

[ichy]

Besides engine technology, I think if our country started to build more/better nuclear power plants, we could make much more cost effective and green hybrid vehicles.

Sadly "nuclear power plants" and "cost effective" have zero relation to each other right now.

 

[JCH13]

Sadly "nuclear power plants" and "cost effective" have zero relation to each other right now.

In the USA they don't, you're right. Other countries put up cookie-cutter nuke plants which really cuts down the NRE costs that make them so expensive. It's a solved problem... but the solution is not really practiced in the USA.

 

[SparkyJJO]

Heinous performance, vehicle dynamics, and feel; little associated tuning culture, polarizing looks (I think it looks awful), and the possibility (albeit very small) of serious danger from a failed/damaged battery pack.

All of this. Something that those who see a car as only an A to B appliance seem to forget a lot. Some of us like the driving experience 😀