Buying New System

[tuffgong]

A relative of mine wants me to build a good system for him that'll be both a good gaming AND app running computer.

My questions is should I go Athlon 64 or Pentium 4? Also should I go the PCI-Express route because I have never dealt with that.

His budget will be about 1500-1800 dollars.

 

[OverVolt]

A64 and PCI express

 

[montag451]

wouldnt worry about pci e at the moment.
by the time you build your next system, then it will be well established, and actually faster than vga x8

 

[blackinches]

an a64 nforce3 combo should be the way to go. pci-e's extra bandwidth really does nothing for the current generation of vid cards. not to mention the fact pci-e vid cards, other than 6600gt, and non sli mobos are hard to find.

 

[OverVolt]

Originally posted by: blackinches
an a64 nforce3 combo should be the way to go. pci-e's extra bandwidth really does nothing for the current generation of vid cards.

I'm thinking: upgradeability.

PCI-express, you can really do without i guess.

 

[tuffgong]

Well this computer is probably not going to be upgraded for about three years.

 

[Terumo]

For apps, a P4 system is best (especially office software). AMD is good for gaming, but for a machine that needs to be dual purpose, the Intel route is better (the owner isn't probably going to be tweaking and all. AMD is a modder's chip and runs hotter, an issue for those who don't tweak their systems or need to call for help to do so).

PCI-E is nice and on the upgrade path timeline (although last generation 8x AGP cards might fetch a better resale value. Be years before most folks finally upgrade to PCI-E). Get a 256mb if possible, it'll last longer as the game engines get more complicated in lighting and physics.

A gaming rig will need at least a gig of memory (especially if s/he wants to play Doom 3). Many flavors to choose from.

SATA HDDs. Your pick. Raptors are nice but still too pricey and have little storage. A couple standard SATAs (Seagates are good and quiet) in RAID 0 will be fine for a game rig, and can speed up those office apps (like spreadsheets).

Try to get the best motherboard you can get though, don't shortcut there. Make sure it's future compliant, and offers a gigabyte LAN option (files aren't getting smaller). One with the most memory slots is a plus, and a 1066/800mhz FSB board is perfect.

 

[tuffgong]

Thanks guy this is really helping me out.

 

[tuffgong]

Let's say I used these parts...that rig would last a good three years at LEAST right?

ANTEC Silver Aluminum Performance 1 Series ATX Mid-Tower Case with Side Window Panel, Swiveling Front Control Panel features LED Display, Model "P-160WF" - Retail

Western Digital Raptor 36.7GB 10,000RPM SATA Hard Drive, Model WD360GD, OEM Drive Only

Corsair XMS Extreme Memory Speed Series,(Twin Pack) 184 Pin 2GB(1GB x 2) DDR PC-3200 - Retail

DFI "LANPARTY 925X-T2" 925X Chipset Motherboard For Intel LGA 775 CPU -RETAIL

Intel Pentium 4/ 3.2E GHz 800MHz FSB, 1MB L2 Cache, Hyper Threading Technology - OEM

eVGA nVIDIA GeForce 6800 GT Video Card, 256MB GDDR3, 256-Bit, Dual DVI/TV-Out, PCI-Express

 

[Terumo]

Only thing I can say is the HDD storage is too light for a 3 year rig. Files add up, and games can put a lot on the HDD. I got over 15gigs of programs alone on my machine, and it doesn't even include fancier apps, game saved files (3 to 15mbs per save on some) or music. 73gig Raptor will be okay, but s/he'll be doing a lot of DVD or CD/RW burning over the years if s/he's a poweruser.

 

[fishmonger12]

Originally posted by: Terumo
AMD is good for gaming, but for a machine that needs to be dual purpose, the Intel route is better (the owner isn't probably going to be tweaking and all. AMD is a modder's chip and runs hotter, an issue for those who don't tweak their systems or need to call for help to do so).

since when was office software the most demanding thing your computer ran? gaming is going to be the most system intensive task that you will run on a computer. unless your doing CAD or something (in which case i would go with a workstation setup) the a64 is probably the best choice. i do a lot of presentation\database work with mine, often running excel, word, powerpoint, and adobe photoshop at the same time. doesn't even hiccup. the more important issue you will have when running apps will be having enough ram. .

also, AMD's run hotter? where the hell are you getting this from? since when did amd become a modders chip? i've bought amd, and i've bought intel, and i've left both at stock and they've both done great. if you aren't overclocking an amd, stock cooling is enough. often more than adequate. there are plenty of people that get 3000+'s up to 2.6-2.8 ghz on STOCK COOLING. a prescott, on the other hand, runs extremely hot.

please don't feed misinformation to people.

here's some info on cpu temps and cpu performance comparisons.

http://www6.tomshardware.com/cpu/20041114/index.html
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuch...howdoc.aspx?i=2249&p=4
http://www6.tomshardware.com/cpu/20041114/index.html
http://www6.tomshardware.com/cpu/20041103/index.html
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuch...owdoc.aspx?i=2249&p=14

the only thing i can really see the p4 becoming the absolutely obvious choice is for audio\video encoding\3dsmax. a64 is better in general\business use and for gaming.

unless you are overclocking, heat shouldn't even be an issue for either processor.

lastly, try and make decisions for yourself based on the numerous reviews that are placed out there on the net for you. that way you can find out what's best for you!

 

[tuffgong]

I just saw a Dell system for about $1500 after rebates...I know I know Dell but the specs are pretty darn good...

3.2 gig P4 540 with 800 fsb, 1 gig of Dual DDR, 250 meg SATA hard drive, 6800 vid card, 17 inch lcd display

Sounds like a good deal, but if I buildt an identical system with other brand names wouldnt that be better? sometimes companies like dell have products that can only be replaced by their own.

 

[Terumo]

Originally posted by: fishmonger12
since when was office software the most demanding thing your computer ran? gaming is going to be the most system intensive task that you will run on a computer. unless your doing CAD or something (in which case i would go with a workstation setup) the a64 is probably the best choice. i do a lot of presentation\database work with mine, often running excel, word, powerpoint, and adobe photoshop at the same time. doesn't even hiccup. the more important issue you will have when running apps will be having enough ram. .

Look at the benchies for office apps. Intel processors wins. I take it the system will be used more for other apps than games, so if it's a 60 to 75% ratio for apps, Intel is a better path. Intel is geared to the corporate market and corporate markets run corporate software, you see?

My next workstation will be Intel based because of heating issues of AMD procs. Some folks don't care too much about their procs reaching over 110F idle, but some do (or go crazy with watercooling and all to get 1000 more on 3DMark). Most of my work is with apps (I'm a 2D artist, 3D modeller and web designer), and tweaking all day and night isn't something I want or care to do on a work rig -- stability is more important. I take it it might be the same deal with that guy's friend, too.

And please take your Intel/AMD fight elsewhere. This is about practicality in the real world than bragging rights. There's gaming rigs and there's dual purpose rigs, and dual purpose rigs must be stable. They're not designed to be uber game machines, or slow as poke app servers. KISS rule applies: the simplistist system that does the job with the best outcomes rules.

 

[fishmonger12]

shrug. i'm just pointing out the other side of the story. i'm sorry if i came off as a fanboy.

i'm not sure where you are coming up with these 110f temperatures... i have the stock cooler on my 3500+ and it runs at around 27 degrees Celcius at full load. my p4 northwood runs a little bit hotter, around 30-33. both of those temperatures are no reason to not buy a processor. these temperature is irrelevant! a prescott runs hot... but even that temperatures are irrelevant. i guarantee that it will not fry just because it is run at stock settings with stock cooling. you are misinformed. you can interpret the results however you want, but i am of the opinion that you are not sane, and a large majority of the reviewers (ie anandtech, tom's hardware, people that do this stuff for a living) tend to share the same opinion.

i don't understand where you are getting this stability problem... i have owned 3 amd processors... 2 athlon xps and this a64. i ran them all at stock speeds, and none of them had a problem. i've owned 1 p3 and a p4... i ran both at stock settings and they both ran fine. they are both good processors. this is not an amd vs intel fight.

tuff, dell's can be a really good deal, especially if you find a rebate on them. if you built an identical system, you could get a better price, but would have to do your own tech support and assembly. it's your choice.

 

[Terumo]

Originally posted by: tuffgong
I just saw a Dell system for about $1500 after rebates...I know I know Dell but the specs are pretty darn good...

3.2 gig P4 540 with 800 fsb, 1 gig of Dual DDR, 250 meg SATA hard drive, 6800 vid card, 17 inch lcd display

Sounds like a good deal, but if I buildt an identical system with other brand names wouldnt that be better? sometimes companies like dell have products that can only be replaced by their own.

My only dealing with Dell products was my Xeon server, and it was full of hardware problems (DRAC III card needing to be replaced and unstability that made it reboot at odd times). It's just better to build your own, as you can stuff what you want/need into a box, than what a manufacturer can limit you on (Dell and others make money on upsales and upgrades, because they make it difficult to squeeze much out of the system).

 

[fishmonger12]

My only dealing with Dell products was my Xeon server, and it was full of hardware problems (DRAC III card needing to be replaced and unstability that made it reboot at odd times). It's just better to build your own, as you can stuff what you want/need into a box, than what a manufacturer can limit you on (Dell and others make money on upsales and upgrades, because they make it difficult to squeeze much out of the system).

so why don't you just send it back? squeeze much out of a system? that sounds like...tweaking. i thought you didn't "tweak" your system? you're so wierd mate.

 

[Terumo]

Originally posted by: fishmonger12
so why don't you just send it back? squeeze much out of a system? that sounds like...tweaking. i thought you didn't "tweak" your system? you're so wierd mate.

How do you send back a server? You thought I had an Dell server hooked up to a 1.5mbps cable connection? :shock: It was offline for 2 days while the host fixed it. Run a business and see how nice 2 days offline is. You learn quickly stability is much more important. IF this guy's friend is doing work remotely to and fro from an office, 2 days down (or longer for a home system) isn't a laughing matter. Not saying it will do that, but it's easier to fix a custom built system than worrying about voiding warranties or service agreements in popping in new hardware.

Avoid the hassles and headaches.

 

[tuffgong]

This is going to be a home system. He plans on mostly playing games, watching movies and maybe capturing some video. He's not relly going to be running hardcore bussiness apps or any CAD or 3D modeling programs.

 

[fishmonger12]

oh. i didn't know this person was in the market for a server he will have to pickup from the dell warehouse. maybe you should have considered sun microsystems or ibm. they both make good products.

thanks for your relevant advice.

i don't know too terribly much about running a business. it doesn't matter to me. i've built my own pcs and bought from dell, they both work well. ask other builders and dell consumers, and i bet you will hear the same thing. did it ever occur to you that a full blown business server is not what the average consumer is in the market for? and that your case might be special? do you think he has his livelihood riding on this pc? are you suggesting he get a scsi raid configuration so he doesn't lose his data?

either processor will work. just look at some reviews and decide which one fits your needs best. if you see that the processor does pretty well at the games he plays, and that he likes capturing video and the processor excels at that app, go with that processor.

 

[tuffgong]

sorry guys i didnt mean to start an argument thread although i am having a good time reading it.

 

[fishmonger12]

anything for your entertainment *bows*

another thing about intel. the compatibility you have been attributing to the processor is not even a property of the processor. it has to do with the chipset. intel manufactures almost all of the chipsets that go with the intel cpu. consequently, there are usually less compatibility issues. however, if you choose a mature amd chipset, these problems are usually not an issue.

there's also other manufacturers besides dell that you could consider, if you were interested in higher quality parts. a lot of people recommend velocity micro (www.velocitymicro.com)

 

[KamiXkaze]

It all depends on how much you want to spend. Most baseline systems with 9800 pro or higher will do. the average computer user (unless they are computer savy) wont know the diference between p4 or a a64 all they want is a computer that runs there apps and have very little os problems(that not going to happen) So either processor will do.

both processors have there good and bad sides p4 cad design for example and A64 games(yes a64 do more than just that but this is just a example)


KxK

 

[Terumo]

Originally posted by: tuffgong
sorry guys i didnt mean to start an argument thread although i am having a good time reading it.

No problem. Seems it's more to do with another rivalary (he's a web developer too).

But do try to build a system. It's cheaper in the long run.

 

[fishmonger12]

Originally posted by: Terumo

But do try to build a system.

quoted for truth. it's fun, you'll end up with better components, it usually runs a couple hundred less than otherwise, and you will learn a lot of things about computers you didn't want to know when it comes time to troubleshoot problems.

ah finally understood the web developer comment. yeah, i wish. i'm a student . i work for our school's I.T.S. department part time and build my own PC's. that's pretty much it.

 

[Terumo]

Originally posted by: fishmonger12
i don't know too terribly much about running a business. it doesn't matter to me. i've built my own pcs and bought from dell, they both work well. ask other builders and dell consumers, and i bet you will hear the same thing. did it ever occur to you that a full blown business server is not what the average consumer is in the market for? and that your case might be special? do you think he has his livelihood riding on this pc? are you suggesting he get a scsi raid configuration so he doesn't lose his data?

Not in this case. Never suggested a server config, just a stable easy to manage home computer that can handle both with little effort. KISS principle. I base my own hardware requirements on hands on and real time work situations -- not bragging rights.

Now in the other thread that would be a server config, as dually Xeons are mainly for servers.