Question Buying / building Haswell, for some older ITX boards I had laying around. Bad idea? (It's built.)

[VirtualLarry]

Is this basically the worst idea in the world, given the recent disclosure of Intel Gen7/7.5 iGPU vulnerabilties, and the mitigations of such (in Linux), that cuts performance in half, or worse.

I was toying with the idea of building some G3258 browser-boxes, for some people I know. If this iGPU exploit / vuln hadn't reared it's head, I might have used the iGPU, save that I want to have an HDMI output. (Have to check the board.)

I guess I can use a dGPU, I have some (precious few, at this point) passively-cooled DDR3-using GT630/730 (Kepler) cards.

Or I could buy some GT710 cards. (I do have some GT730 GDDR5 cards, have to track those down too, before I mis-place them semi-permanently.)

Maybe a really "low-end Gaming Box" with the GT730 2GB GDDR5 cards? Might be able to play GTA V @ 25FPS on Low, like, really low.

I find it interesting that ebay vendors are unloading these for a song. Woke up today and went to ebay, found "Seller Offers" with decent discounts, off of the already fairly-low prices of around $20... They really want to off-load these chips, way too many vulns these days.

For a browser-box, for your average "Grandma", how bad are the vulns affecting Haswell? Are all of them mitigated by Windows Patches, if these boards don't have BIOS patches? (They probably should, they are the "CSM" models, but I haven't checked, and Haswell is pretty old.) (They are Asus boards.)

 

[Insert_Nickname]

You have an Athlon II X3 CPU, with an NVMe SSD? Do tell... I think that there was an ASRock AM3+ board with an NVMe slot, towards the end of the platform's life.

Not much to tell. Was "lucky" enough to snag one when they were available. The point is the simple fact that you can run anything from Windows XP to 10 and (almost) any concivable Linux distribution on the AM3+ platform, which comes in very handy for compatibility purposes.

https://asrock.com/mb/AMD/970A-G3.1/ (I think ASUS had a few models too)

It's really designed for the later BD varieties, but those do not play well with older OS, that lack optimization for BDs quirky architecture. The X3 is a reasonable compromise. Though I might pick up an X6 eventually.

But those computers can and do still run OK with XP for most everything people usually do nowadays...facebook and youtube.

I'm sorry but I'm going to have to reply to this.

Windows XP? Facebook? Youtube? Checks calender. Nope. Says 2020.

Are you really serious? I mean, it's fine getting the most out of hardware, but running an OS that has been out of support for 6 years? That can't even run a new'ish browser? Both Chrome and Firefox has quit the XP platform. In 2017 and 2018. That two years worth of browser updates, even in the best case. IE doesn't even count, since you can at most run IE8 on XP.

Have you considered a lightweight Linux distribution? Running XP on the internet in 2020 isn't just putting yourself in danger, but everyone else too. Air gapped offline use is fine, of course.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Seems like he should consider letting someone else build his computers. Ha!

Anyway, we're getting a bit off-topic aren't we? We weren't talking about anything as god-awful slow as an AthlonXP or Pentium 4. Just Haswell.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Seems like he should consider letting someone else build his computers. Ha!

I'm not sure if you're talking about me, @EliteRetard , or my friend, but either way, that's kind of a low blow. Well, I know it's sarcasm ("ha"), but still.

Anyway, we're getting a bit off-topic aren't we? We weren't talking about anything as god-awful slow as an AthlonXP or Pentium 4. Just Haswell.

Maybe I should compare numbers from CPUbenchmark.net , between the Haswell G3258, and a Phenom II X4 CPU. In MT, it might be a wash (@4.0Ghz for the Haswell). For ST, though, I'm fairly certain that the Haswell would have an advantage, or did, before "mitigations".

Right now there's a sweet (or was, this morning, it could be sold out) Refurb GTX 1660 "Phoenix" card, for $113.99. 6GB GDDR5, 8-pin power, might make a nice little accessory to this G3258, if I can get it OCed., (edit: Just checked, SOLD OUT. Oh well. It was in the price range for this rig.)

 

[sdifox]

Easier for them to get a fire tablet

 

[maddie]

Have you considered a lightweight Linux distribution? Running XP on the internet in 2020 isn't just putting yourself in danger, but everyone else too. Air gapped offline use is fine, of course.

How do you reason this?

 

[moinmoin]

How do you reason this?

Proliferation of spam, malware, social engineering etc. by essentially offering what amounts to a publicly accessible box online.

 

[DrMrLordX]

How do you reason this?

Botnet.

I'm not sure if you're talking about me, @EliteRetard , or my friend, but either way, that's kind of a low blow. Well, I know it's sarcasm ("ha"), but still.

Here's a hint: had trouble with any 2700s lately? Not really a low blow when you consider. But I digress.

Maybe I should compare numbers from CPUbenchmark.net , between the Haswell G3258, and a Phenom II X4 CPU. In MT, it might be a wash (@4.0Ghz for the Haswell). For ST, though, I'm fairly certain that the Haswell would have an advantage, or did, before "mitigations".

Haswell is pretty strong compared to Deneb and the like. Remember that Nehalem was faster per clock than Deneb given identical core counts. Then you progress from Nehalem to Sandy, Ivy, and finally Haswell. Deneb stands no chance.

 

[IEC]

I have a Haswell-era dual core. It is markedly inferior even for "normie" usage compared to my new budget favorite, the Ryzen 1600 AF. $85 for a 6c/12t Ryzen CPU on the12nm (yes, you read correctly) process is a bargain and should last for years and years to come. Upgrading that machine to a proper quad-core Haswell chip would cost me more than Ryzen 1600 AF + mobo.

Of course with Ryzen 2000 series chips selling for cheap on the used market stepping up to 8c/16t is also very inexpensive. And with DDR4 prices so cheap it's a great time for budget builds.

 

[maddie]

Proliferation of spam, malware, social engineering etc. by essentially offering what amounts to a publicly accessible box online.

Botnet.

That's fighting an impossible battle in an increasingly connected world.

Protect yourself? Yes. Protect the world? A Utopian delusion.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Protect yourself? Yes. Protect the world? A Utopian delusion.

Herd Immunity.

 

[Arkaign]

Herd Immunity.

This is true in the macro sense. I also see something of a bit of truth with 'security by obscurity'. I ran an old system as a bit of a joke not too long ago (twin Xeon 500 Slot 1, 1GB RDRAM 1066, Raid 9.1(?) Cheetah 68-Pin SCSI, K-Mel browser, GeForce 6800 Ultra AGP) and found it was probably just under the radar of most modern bugs haha. As I was stripping it down to be rebuilt anyway using a SCSI to UHS card reader for the drive as a retro PC, I figured it would be interesting to drive down some dark alleyways on the web, and didn't manage to get it gummed up like most systems would be these days. I guess that's similar to running a weird branch of Linux or how some of those nuts that take Amiga 4000s on the web experience things.

XP is probably new enough and targeted enough to be legitimately dangerous to be online with of course.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

How do you reason this?

As others have already answered, I don't feel the need to further elaborate.

XP is probably new enough and targeted enough to be legitimately dangerous to be online with of course.

XP is still used, even as a desktop OS, so there is incentive to target it. Further, as it is Windows, bugs affecting newer versions could conceivably affect or be backported to XP. Some legacy systems rely on it, and can yield very valuable and/or sensitive data.

 

[VirtualLarry]

XP is still used, even as a desktop OS, so there is incentive to target it. Further, as it is Windows, bugs affecting newer versions could conceivably affect or be backported to XP. Some legacy systems rely on it, and can yield very valuable and/or sensitive data.

Then again, XP had the powerful "Software Restrictions Policy", that would block pretty-much any and all system-level malware. Unfortunately, user-level malware, such as Ransomware, that would encrypt user files, could still activate, so it wasn't a 100% solution anymore with the advent of Ransomware.

 

[VirtualLarry]

I have a Haswell-era dual core. It is markedly inferior even for "normie" usage compared to my new budget favorite, the Ryzen 1600 AF.

I wonder, honestly, how a 4.0Ghz (OC) G3258 compares to an Athlon 300U? (Yes, I know that the Athlon 300U is like a 15W TDP laptop chip. Do they even have a Desktop variant, like an A300GE or something, where a comparison and TDP might be more apt?)

Alas, the G3258 build didn't go as planned. Not sure if board or CPU is bad, or BIOS needs updating. I cleared CMOS, then replaced the CMOS battery, pulled all of the RAM, and tried to boot, with two different beepers, no beeps at all! Pulled front-panel switches and USB 2.0 FP headers.

Fans spin up (rear chassis fan, LED CPU fan, and LED front fan wired to PSU directly), they all come on and spin, but no video output (even tried onboard VGA, as well as the HDMI), tried crashfree BIOS update, but no VGA output nor beeps. With or without RAM, tried 4 sticks, two sets of two.

I tried pulling up a "CPU Support List" @ Asus for the "H81i-Plus/CSM" board, but one was no-where to be found anymore. I don't know if the CSM variant's BIOS is different in any way.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

(Yes, I know that the Athlon 300U is like a 15W TDP laptop chip. Do they even have a Desktop variant, like an A300GE or something, where a comparison and TDP might be more apt?)

There are the 200GE, 220GE, 240GE and the new 3000G (identical to the 240GE, with a slight boost to IGP frequency). The 200GE can be had for peanuts, and performs quite well. Downside is that the AM4 platform requires DDR4, so you may have to get new RAM.

Then again, XP had the powerful "Software Restrictions Policy", that would block pretty-much any and all system-level malware. Unfortunately, user-level malware, such as Ransomware, that would encrypt user files, could still activate, so it wasn't a 100% solution anymore with the advent of Ransomware.

This is getting a bit OT.

Assuming it's configured of course, and as you say is no solution to ransomware.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Well, got it built, finally. First board (well, technically, third out of the bunch that I purchased originally), didn't boot at all, nor did it even beep at me, when I removed all of the RAM, replaced the CMOS battery, and cleared CMOS. I have a G1820 on order for that board, maybe it just had an early BIOS that didn't support the G3258.

The other board, once I got it all re-built, has BIOS 2105, and 2001 was the first one to support the G3258. (I think 2105 might be the newest?) Booted OK once I cleared the CMOS, and made sure that the RAM was properly seated.

The case/PSU, I borrowed the Rosewill Valens 600W 80Plus Gold PSU for my other twin Polaris GPU mining rig (since the Antec VP650 burned out, and this one smells like it might as well do so. Maybe I should put the fan up instead of down, the default config.), so I opened my spare BNIB Corsair CX450 PSU for this Haswell dual-core rig.

I then booted the SSD, that had previously had a 200GE APU in it. I added an MSI GT740 1GB GDDR5 (I think new), but had some driver issues. When I installed the newest drivers from Nvidia, things got really wonky, sections of the screen were blue, then orange, then blue. Sometimes the screen would cut out, and show HDMI (input) 3840x2158 or 2159, not 2160. Very weird stuff.

So I blew away that Windows install (that had AMD GPU + chipset drivers, as well as Intel iGPU drivers, as well as NVidia drivers), and installed a fresh copy of 1909, with whatever default drivers Win10 1909 installs for the GT 740. So far, so good, although there's a random black line that sometimes appears at 4K res.

I've got a Gammaxx 400 heatsink on it (a bit overkill, just slightly), and I decided at the last minute to try clocking it to 4.2Ghz. Seemed to work, according to CPU-Z, and running CPU-Z stress-test and browsing the web didn't crash it for 30 minutes. (Not really a proper stress-test, I know.)

So now, I don't know if the Rosewill Line-M mATX case will even let me close the side panel with the Gammaxx in there, it's going to be close.

This is one of my more random builds. ITX mobo, overclocking, mATX case, overkill heatsink, and a sort-of-not-quite-gaming-grade GPU.

Not really sure which of these rigs is better:
1) FX-8320E w/GT1030 2GB GDDR5, 16GB DDR3
2) G3258 @ 4.2Ghz w/GT740 1GB GDDR5,, 4GB DDR3
3) G3900 (2.7Ghz stock, Skylake Celeron), w/Radeon R7 260X 2GB GDDR5, some unknown amount of DDR4, maybe 4GB or 8GB.

 

[Iron Woode]

I am still using a Haswell setup:

I5 4570, 8GB DDR3 1600, Gtx 1060 3GB, Samsung EVO 860 500 GB, Asrock H97M Pro4

system runs quite well but I am slowly buying my parts to build a Ryzen 3600 system and put this one out to pasture.

 

[sdifox]

I am still using a Haswell setup:

I5 4570, 8GB DDR3 1600, Gtx 1060 3GB, Samsung EVO 860 500 GB, Asrock H97M Pro4

system runs quite well but I am slowly buying my parts to build a Ryzen 3600 system and put this one out to pasture.

Turn it into a firewall

 

[VirtualLarry]

I am still using a Haswell setup:

I5 4570, 8GB DDR3 1600, Gtx 1060 3GB, Samsung EVO 860 500 GB, Asrock H97M Pro4

system runs quite well but I am slowly buying my parts to build a Ryzen 3600 system and put this one out to pasture.

No shame in that, Haswell is still relatively "Beefy". Plus, I have soft spot in my heart for the G3258, it was so much fun to hot-rod on the cheap (H81 OC boards). Doing something that Intel "disallowed" (officially, at least on H81 boards) was a bit of a rush too.

Turn it into a firewall

Now THAT's an idea. Would be a better idea, if I had used an ITX case and a stock fan, but who's counting. Maybe get a dual-port Intel 10GbE-T card, like one of those, I think called "X540" or something? I've seen them surplus on ebay and Newegg for around $120-140.

Then when FIOS hits 10Gbit/sec (or maybe Xfinity will be first? They had better be full duplex by then), I'll be ready.

 

[Iron Woode]

Turn it into a firewall

did that years ago with an old socket 370 setup.

ran Freesco as my firewall.

 

[Arkaign]

Yep, this is probably an ideal time to offload any 8x/9x Haswell mobos and CPUs, or indeed any Intel of 4C/4T and under while the resale is still relatively high. Once Intel 10th gen (which will probably be a short stopgap to 11th gen) and Zen2+/4000 desktop stuff arrives, it will push Zen 2000 series and Coffee Lake and down to silly cheap levels. Zen1 is already so dang cheap used that it's borderline crazy.

I think the top SKU i7/i9s in normal and K types will remain expensive (due to classic situation of people wanting max upgrade without having to swap Mobo/ram/etc). But everything else will become much cheaper.

 

[Arkaign]

Well, got it built, finally. First board (well, technically, third out of the bunch that I purchased originally), didn't boot at all, nor did it even beep at me, when I removed all of the RAM, replaced the CMOS battery, and cleared CMOS. I have a G1820 on order for that board, maybe it just had an early BIOS that didn't support the G3258.

The other board, once I got it all re-built, has BIOS 2105, and 2001 was the first one to support the G3258. (I think 2105 might be the newest?) Booted OK once I cleared the CMOS, and made sure that the RAM was properly seated.

The case/PSU, I borrowed the Rosewill Valens 600W 80Plus Gold PSU for my other twin Polaris GPU mining rig (since the Antec VP650 burned out, and this one smells like it might as well do so. Maybe I should put the fan up instead of down, the default config.), so I opened my spare BNIB Corsair CX450 PSU for this Haswell dual-core rig.

I then booted the SSD, that had previously had a 200GE APU in it. I added an MSI GT740 1GB GDDR5 (I think new), but had some driver issues. When I installed the newest drivers from Nvidia, things got really wonky, sections of the screen were blue, then orange, then blue. Sometimes the screen would cut out, and show HDMI (input) 3840x2158 or 2159, not 2160. Very weird stuff.

So I blew away that Windows install (that had AMD GPU + chipset drivers, as well as Intel iGPU drivers, as well as NVidia drivers), and installed a fresh copy of 1909, with whatever default drivers Win10 1909 installs for the GT 740. So far, so good, although there's a random black line that sometimes appears at 4K res.

I've got a Gammaxx 400 heatsink on it (a bit overkill, just slightly), and I decided at the last minute to try clocking it to 4.2Ghz. Seemed to work, according to CPU-Z, and running CPU-Z stress-test and browsing the web didn't crash it for 30 minutes. (Not really a proper stress-test, I know.)

So now, I don't know if the Rosewill Line-M mATX case will even let me close the side panel with the Gammaxx in there, it's going to be close.

This is one of my more random builds. ITX mobo, overclocking, mATX case, overkill heatsink, and a sort-of-not-quite-gaming-grade GPU.

Not really sure which of these rigs is better:
1) FX-8320E w/GT1030 2GB GDDR5, 16GB DDR3
2) G3258 @ 4.2Ghz w/GT740 1GB GDDR5,, 4GB DDR3
3) G3900 (2.7Ghz stock, Skylake Celeron), w/Radeon R7 260X 2GB GDDR5, some unknown amount of DDR4, maybe 4GB or 8GB.

Rig 2 and get it to 16GB would be the best of the 3, along with the 260X or maybe 1030 for better HDMI and video acceleration swapped.

 

[Shmee]

Haswell is fine, especially Haswell E! But I would consider an i3 the minimum. Also, you may be able to get some cheap socket 1150 xeons as well. Used xeons get very cheap relative to their new price more quickly then i7 etc.

 

[sdifox]

Haswell is fine, especially Haswell E! But I would consider an i3 the minimum. Also, you may be able to get some cheap socket 1150 xeons as well. Used xeons get very cheap relative to their new price more quickly then i7 etc.

Slogan - XEONs for Grandmas!

 

[Spjut]

I do think people underestimate how well older CPUs hold up for Windows 10. As for Linux, the various times I've tried Ubuntu, I've never noticed proclaimed speedup that the Linux fanbase always screams about.

I've used Windows 10 on Phenom II X4/X6, Core 2 Quad Q8200 and Core 2 Duo E6600, paired with various DX10 and DX11 cards. All PCs felt snappier than Windows 7, even the Core 2 Duo with only 2GB RAM and Readyboost.
The Phenom II X4 was also used with a Titan for gaming purposes for a year.

I have even used Windows 10 with an integrated Geforce 6 series card and it worked, although I never did more than browsing just to check its functionality. But this is where Win7 might be better, because users have said that GPUs with WDDM 1.0 only drivers have been abysmal on Win10. Whereas WDDM 1.1 or higher is fine.

The tests I've seen shows that the Spectre mitigations were way worse on Windows 7 and 8 than on Windows 10, so Win7 might be even worse off now than it was during Win10's launch.