Buy Frontier Airline stock

[OutHouse]

Frontier filed for bankruptcy the stock dropped like a rock and opened at 39 cents a share this morning.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Citrix
Frontier filed for bankruptcy the stock dropped like a rock and opened at 39 cents a share this morning.

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

This time it is because of a bank I said would fail as well back last January 2007.

Wells Fargo is getting more desperate by the day.

4-11-2008 Wells Fargo forces Frontier to file for bankruptcy protection

DENVER - Frontier Airlines sought bankruptcy protection Friday, the fourth carrier to do so in the past several weeks as exorbitant fuel prices eat into earnings and a weak U.S. economy keeps more people grounded.

The Chapter 11 filing in U.S. Bankruptcy Court in New York prevents the credit card processor from increasing its "holdback," Frontier CEO Sean Menke said.

"Unfortunately, our principal credit card processor very recently and unexpectedly informed us that, beginning on April 11, it intended to start withholding significant proceeds received from the sale of Frontier tickets," he said. "This change in established practices would have represented a material change to our cash forecasts and business plan. Unchecked, it would have put severe restraints on Frontier's liquidity and would have made it impossible for us to continue normal operations."

He said Frontier Holdings Inc. was prepared to litigate, if necessary.

The creditor listed in bankruptcy court documents as having the largest general unsecured claim against Frontier by far was Wells Fargo, with $93.5 million. Frontier said it had fewer than 50 creditors.

At the end of last year, Frontier said, it had assets of $98.3 million and debts of $92.2 million.

A Frontier spokesman said earlier this week the airline had "no concerns about bankruptcy" but added that it was working on strengthening its cash position.

Last month, Frontier said it had agreed to sell four planes to counter rising fuel costs.

Frontier shares lost most of their value in premarket trading Friday, tumbling $1.27 to 30 cents each.
===========================================

30 cents. They are done.

Do you any way they can survive???

 

[bbdub333]

Why should we buy something that is worthless? Do I need to point out the obvious that when a company files for bankruptcy, its common stock is de-listed? It will be re-listed under a new ticker symbol and will be worth less than 39 cents.

 

[Billb2]

A highly speculative move. But there can me money to be made.

At the moment of the bankruptcy announcement, the price of the stock is governed by the massive sell orders of those wishing to unload the stock at any price. In the calmer light of the next few hours, considerations of breakup value, potential buyers, etc., become the driving factors for pricing.

But all those scenarios are "blue sky" wishing. So the value of shares becomes for all intents and purposes purely "what someone is willing to pay" as there is no concrete data on which to base the stock price. It's purely a speculators game from then on. You're not trying to guess the vaue of the company, you' have to just try to guess what the speculators are going to do....and that's a crap shoot.

Generally though, after some catastrophic news hits a stock, it falls like a brick, then, once the "holders" are washed out of the market, it will somewhat recover to reflect the wishful thinking of the speculators.

And if don't have an online brokerage and the ability to trade instantly online, and see live bid/ask pricing you're asking for trouble It's foolhardy to expect the market makers to fill your order at the listed pricing as the bid/ask spreads get astronomical during these times and you'll surely be screwed by anyone that can screw you.

It's EXTREMELY speculative, but money can be made with the right tools, strategy and mind set.

And by the time you read this post, all the "action" will be over with.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Citrix
Frontier filed for bankruptcy the stock dropped like a rock and opened at 39 cents a share this morning.

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

This time it is because of a bank I said would fail as well back last January 2007.

Wells Fargo is getting more desperate by the day.

4-11-2008 Wells Fargo forces Frontier to file for bankruptcy protection

DENVER - Frontier Airlines sought bankruptcy protection Friday, the fourth carrier to do so in the past several weeks as exorbitant fuel prices eat into earnings and a weak U.S. economy keeps more people grounded.

The Chapter 11 filing in U.S. Bankruptcy Court in New York prevents the credit card processor from increasing its "holdback," Frontier CEO Sean Menke said.

"Unfortunately, our principal credit card processor very recently and unexpectedly informed us that, beginning on April 11, it intended to start withholding significant proceeds received from the sale of Frontier tickets," he said. "This change in established practices would have represented a material change to our cash forecasts and business plan. Unchecked, it would have put severe restraints on Frontier's liquidity and would have made it impossible for us to continue normal operations."

He said Frontier Holdings Inc. was prepared to litigate, if necessary.

The creditor listed in bankruptcy court documents as having the largest general unsecured claim against Frontier by far was Wells Fargo, with $93.5 million. Frontier said it had fewer than 50 creditors.

At the end of last year, Frontier said, it had assets of $98.3 million and debts of $92.2 million.

A Frontier spokesman said earlier this week the airline had "no concerns about bankruptcy" but added that it was working on strengthening its cash position.

Last month, Frontier said it had agreed to sell four planes to counter rising fuel costs.

Frontier shares lost most of their value in premarket trading Friday, tumbling $1.27 to 30 cents each.
===========================================

30 cents. They are done.

Do you any way they can survive???

It wasn't WFC you fricking moron.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Citrix
Frontier filed for bankruptcy the stock dropped like a rock and opened at 39 cents a share this morning.

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

This time it is because of a bank I said would fail as well back last January 2007.

Wells Fargo is getting more desperate by the day.

4-11-2008 Wells Fargo forces Frontier to file for bankruptcy protection

DENVER - Frontier Airlines sought bankruptcy protection Friday, the fourth carrier to do so in the past several weeks as exorbitant fuel prices eat into earnings and a weak U.S. economy keeps more people grounded.

The Chapter 11 filing in U.S. Bankruptcy Court in New York prevents the credit card processor from increasing its "holdback," Frontier CEO Sean Menke said.

"Unfortunately, our principal credit card processor very recently and unexpectedly informed us that, beginning on April 11, it intended to start withholding significant proceeds received from the sale of Frontier tickets," he said. "This change in established practices would have represented a material change to our cash forecasts and business plan. Unchecked, it would have put severe restraints on Frontier's liquidity and would have made it impossible for us to continue normal operations."

He said Frontier Holdings Inc. was prepared to litigate, if necessary.

The creditor listed in bankruptcy court documents as having the largest general unsecured claim against Frontier by far was Wells Fargo, with $93.5 million. Frontier said it had fewer than 50 creditors.

At the end of last year, Frontier said, it had assets of $98.3 million and debts of $92.2 million.

A Frontier spokesman said earlier this week the airline had "no concerns about bankruptcy" but added that it was working on strengthening its cash position.

Last month, Frontier said it had agreed to sell four planes to counter rising fuel costs.

Frontier shares lost most of their value in premarket trading Friday, tumbling $1.27 to 30 cents each.
===========================================

30 cents. They are done.

Do you any way they can survive???

It wasn't WFC you fricking moron.

Why are you protective of Wells Fargo?

Frontier owes them a ton of money:

MORTGAGE AND SECURITY AGREEMENT

70 million dollar loan by Wells Fargo

 

[imported_Lothar]

The airline industry has been a broken business for sometime now, and will continue to be a broken business.
They have essentially fixed revenue(ticket prices) with volatile costs(price of oil).

 

[daveshel]

Originally posted by: bbdub333
Why should we buy something that is worthless? Do I need to point out the obvious that when a company files for bankruptcy, its common stock is de-listed? It will be re-listed under a new ticker symbol and will be worth less than 39 cents.

This is Chapter 11 - a reorganization/rehabilitation, so I don't think it would be delisted until such time as the reorg is deemed a failure and they go into Chapter 7. If the reorg works, the stock could end up being worth a lot. It seems to me to be a decent gamble.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: Citrix
Frontier filed for bankruptcy the stock dropped like a rock and opened at 39 cents a share this morning.

Why would I want to buy a penny stock? Penny stocks are junk and are pure gambling.

Stick to massage therapy slap happy.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Why are you protective of Wells Fargo?

Frontier owes them a ton of money:

MORTGAGE AND SECURITY AGREEMENT

70 million dollar loan by Wells Fargo

Does your stupidity know any bounds?

The 70MM facility has several debtors, the largest of which is going to be WestLB. WFC only has a B-1 tranche. In all likelihood, WFC has less than 10% of the note structure, I am trying to find details now. An A note in this type of trust will only require minimal credit enhancement, probably less than 10%, maybe 8 of which will be a B note while the C note may be 2%.

The MSA is between Frontier and WFC in WFC's role as the collateral agent of the transaction. It has nothing to do with what Frontier owes WFC. WCF acts on behalf of a trust that owns the engines that Frontier uses. That agreement is more or less saying the Lenders own the engines and all proceeds as collateral. It looks like the trust leases the engines to Frontier, which is a common thing among these types of transaction. Other common sale-leaseback transactions are car rental (see Avis-Budget AESOP program) trusts.

You're really going to pull this shit on me? I eat these types of legal docs for 3 square meals a day, while running collateral and cashflow models in excel. Don't even try to fight this type of battle, you're a network engineer, I am a half lawyer half finance guru working for one of the biggest banks in the world and I do this shit all day.

 

[dahunan]

Why does Dave even care who the lender was? What diff does it make?

 

[bbdub333]

Originally posted by: daveshel

Originally posted by: bbdub333
Why should we buy something that is worthless? Do I need to point out the obvious that when a company files for bankruptcy, its common stock is de-listed? It will be re-listed under a new ticker symbol and will be worth less than 39 cents.

This is Chapter 11 - a reorganization/rehabilitation, so I don't think it would be delisted until such time as the reorg is deemed a failure and they go into Chapter 7. If the reorg works, the stock could end up being worth a lot. It seems to me to be a decent gamble.

I'm pretty sure it's the same situation that Delta and Northwest went through a couple years ago. The common stock becomes worthless and is replaced with pink sheets, which you can trade like common stock but is much more risky, because you're really buying the company's debt... and in the event that they come out of bankruptcy in a few years, those pink sheets will become worthless as the company re-lists again under a new common ticker.

 

[cwjerome]

Man I really liked Frontier Airlines. Hope they pull out of it.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: dahunan
Why does Dave even care who the lender was? What diff does it make?

Because dave loves to run around and "prove" his idiotic prognostications over and over. The very fact that he claims it was WFC and not the actual perp (First Data), while claiming WFC is desperate and is going down, only highlights his ignorance. Then, instead of admitting that he was wrong, he attempts to show that WFC is a major lender with that facility, when, in fact, it only has a very small part of it. WFC is just fine.

What's sad is that without somebody like me, people would believe Dave.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Why are you protective of Wells Fargo?

Frontier owes them a ton of money:

MORTGAGE AND SECURITY AGREEMENT

70 million dollar loan by Wells Fargo

Does your stupidity know any bounds?

The 70MM facility has several debtors, the largest of which is going to be WestLB. WFC only has a B-1 tranche. In all likelihood, WFC has less than 10% of the note structure, I am trying to find details now. An A note in this type of trust will only require minimal credit enhancement, probably less than 10%, maybe 8 of which will be a B note while the C note may be 2%.

The MSA is between Frontier and WFC in WFC's role as the collateral agent of the transaction. It has nothing to do with what Frontier owes WFC. WCF acts on behalf of a trust that owns the engines that Frontier uses. That agreement is more or less saying the Lenders own the engines and all proceeds as collateral. It looks like the trust leases the engines to Frontier, which is a common thing among these types of transaction. Other common sale-leaseback transactions are car rental (see Avis-Budget AESOP program) trusts.

You're really going to pull this shit on me? I eat these types of legal docs for 3 square meals a day, while running collateral and cashflow models in excel. Don't even try to fight this type of battle, you're a network engineer, I am a half lawyer half finance guru working for one of the biggest banks in the world and I do this shit all day.

Originally posted by: dahunan
Why does Dave even care who the lender was? What diff does it make?

I don't.

LK is the one defending criminals hiding behind legal documents.

 

[Jmman]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: dahunan
Why does Dave even care who the lender was? What diff does it make?

Because dave loves to run around and "prove" his idiotic prognostications over and over. The very fact that he claims it was WFC and not the actual perp (First Data), while claiming WFC is desperate and is going down, only highlights his ignorance. Then, instead of admitting that he was wrong, he attempts to show that WFC is a major lender with that facility, when, in fact, it only has a very small part of it. WFC is just fine.

What's sad is that without somebody like me, people would believe Dave.

Actually, many of us don't believe Dave no matter what he says..........😉

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

I don't.

LK is the one defending criminals hiding behind legal documents.

You don't? Then why claim it was WFC who did this at all?

Face it, you were fucking owned, like always.

Who is the criminal? Do you have proof of wrongdoing? If so, please provide the relevent crime, caselaw, and evidence. Otherwise, shut your hyperbole, strawman, idiotic mouth before you make an even bigger fool out of yourself, if that's even possible.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: dahunan
Why does Dave even care who the lender was? What diff does it make?

Because dave loves to run around and "prove" his idiotic prognostications over and over. The very fact that he claims it was WFC and not the actual perp (First Data), while claiming WFC is desperate and is going down, only highlights his ignorance. Then, instead of admitting that he was wrong, he attempts to show that WFC is a major lender with that facility, when, in fact, it only has a very small part of it. WFC is just fine.

What's sad is that without somebody like me, people would believe Dave.

Wow, awesome.

I'm apparently on my way to being a billionaire like Bloomberg with such power that people believe me like that.

Thanks :thumbsup:

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: dahunan
Why does Dave even care who the lender was? What diff does it make?

Because dave loves to run around and "prove" his idiotic prognostications over and over. The very fact that he claims it was WFC and not the actual perp (First Data), while claiming WFC is desperate and is going down, only highlights his ignorance. Then, instead of admitting that he was wrong, he attempts to show that WFC is a major lender with that facility, when, in fact, it only has a very small part of it. WFC is just fine.

What's sad is that without somebody like me, people would believe Dave.

Wow, awesome.

I'm apparently on my way to being a billionaire like Bloomberg with such power that people believe me like that.

Thanks :thumbsup:

If you were as smart as bloomberg, perhaps.

Alas, you'll be stuck as a nomadic network engineer perpetually looking for a job while making idiotic life decisions along the way (like your "bar" and "yacht").

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: dahunan
Why does Dave even care who the lender was? What diff does it make?

Because dave loves to run around and "prove" his idiotic prognostications over and over. The very fact that he claims it was WFC and not the actual perp (First Data), while claiming WFC is desperate and is going down, only highlights his ignorance. Then, instead of admitting that he was wrong, he attempts to show that WFC is a major lender with that facility, when, in fact, it only has a very small part of it. WFC is just fine.

What's sad is that without somebody like me, people would believe Dave.

Wow, awesome.

I'm apparently on my way to being a billionaire like Bloomberg with such power that people believe me like that.

Thanks :thumbsup:

If you were as smart as bloomberg, perhaps.

Alas, you'll be stuck as a nomadic network engineer perpetually looking for a job while making idiotic life decisions along the way (like your "bar" and "yacht").

Interesting.

When rich Republicans like Bloomberg does it, it's OK but not for the non-rich.

Gotcha

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: dahunan
Why does Dave even care who the lender was? What diff does it make?

Because dave loves to run around and "prove" his idiotic prognostications over and over. The very fact that he claims it was WFC and not the actual perp (First Data), while claiming WFC is desperate and is going down, only highlights his ignorance. Then, instead of admitting that he was wrong, he attempts to show that WFC is a major lender with that facility, when, in fact, it only has a very small part of it. WFC is just fine.

What's sad is that without somebody like me, people would believe Dave.

Wow, awesome.

I'm apparently on my way to being a billionaire like Bloomberg with such power that people believe me like that.

Thanks :thumbsup:

If you were as smart as bloomberg, perhaps.

Alas, you'll be stuck as a nomadic network engineer perpetually looking for a job while making idiotic life decisions along the way (like your "bar" and "yacht").

Interesting.

When rich Republicans like Bloomberg does it, it's OK but not for the non-rich.

Gotcha

No, only smart people.

 

[MonkeyK]

OK, so what are the rules with bankruptcy and stocks? In what situations do you still own a piece of the company when the process is over? If you can't own a piece of the company, why does it have any value at all?

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: dahunan
Why does Dave even care who the lender was? What diff does it make?

Because dave loves to run around and "prove" his idiotic prognostications over and over. The very fact that he claims it was WFC and not the actual perp (First Data), while claiming WFC is desperate and is going down, only highlights his ignorance. Then, instead of admitting that he was wrong, he attempts to show that WFC is a major lender with that facility, when, in fact, it only has a very small part of it. WFC is just fine.

What's sad is that without somebody like me, people would believe Dave.

Wow, awesome.

I'm apparently on my way to being a billionaire like Bloomberg with such power that people believe me like that.

Thanks :thumbsup:

If you were as smart as bloomberg, perhaps.

Alas, you'll be stuck as a nomadic network engineer perpetually looking for a job while making idiotic life decisions along the way (like your "bar" and "yacht").

Interesting.

When rich Republicans like Bloomberg does it, it's OK but not for the non-rich.

Gotcha

No, only smart people.

That's right, only corporate , banking and religious heads that control the country are smart.

Silly me, my bad.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: dahunan
Why does Dave even care who the lender was? What diff does it make?

Because dave loves to run around and "prove" his idiotic prognostications over and over. The very fact that he claims it was WFC and not the actual perp (First Data), while claiming WFC is desperate and is going down, only highlights his ignorance. Then, instead of admitting that he was wrong, he attempts to show that WFC is a major lender with that facility, when, in fact, it only has a very small part of it. WFC is just fine.

What's sad is that without somebody like me, people would believe Dave.

Wow, awesome.

I'm apparently on my way to being a billionaire like Bloomberg with such power that people believe me like that.

Thanks :thumbsup:

If you were as smart as bloomberg, perhaps.

Alas, you'll be stuck as a nomadic network engineer perpetually looking for a job while making idiotic life decisions along the way (like your "bar" and "yacht").

Interesting.

When rich Republicans like Bloomberg does it, it's OK but not for the non-rich.

Gotcha

No, only smart people.

That's right, only corporate , banking and religious heads that control the country are smart.

Silly me, my bad.

No, only people who are stupid, like you, are excluded.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: MonkeyK
OK, so what are the rules with bankruptcy and stocks? In what situations do you still own a piece of the company when the process is over? If you can't own a piece of the company, why does it have any value at all?

In a liquidation situation stockholders are last in payment, if the company owes $100 and only has 100 in assets, stockholders get nothing.

Why does it have value? Because in any situation where the company runs normally, all of the "extra" cash is paid to them, whether through capital appreciation or dividends. Equity upside is unlimited, while debt upside is limited.