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But it's a religion of peace!

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Jaskalas said:
Ghandi VS a warlord who pillaged, raped, and murdered his way across the middle east....

While your point is valid, the comparison is poorly chosen.
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It wasn't meant to be a comparison at all, merely a metaphor.

JEDIYoda said:
Show me another religion that calls for the killing of those who will not convert....Islam is like no other religion...ever...
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Christianity calls for equally heinous things.
 
Abwx said:
In most western nations , although updated with bourgeois
power "commandements"....

Refer to Hans Kelsen for an accurate explanation...
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I'm sorry, but you're going to have to be more concrete than that. While I can accept that biblical morality seeps it's way into our legal system in a number of different ways while technically not being the law of the land, in reality, the situation in the west IS vastly different than it is in countries operating under Sharia. Our own anti-sodomy laws, which we finally ditched by judicial order some 10 years ago, did not impose the death penalty, for example. And there are massive numbers of other edicts in Leviticus alone that we have never even tried to legally implement. Furthermore, we quit executing people for "witchcraft" after the 1690's, but they're still doing it in 2012 in countries like Saudi Arabia.

Theory is interesting, but I'm more interested in the empirical facts on the ground.
 
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HAL9000 said:
Christianity calls for equally heinous things.
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nice sidestepping the issue......
But no Christianity does not call for a physical death to those who donot convert.....

Christianity says that if a person dies without accepting the Lord jesus Christ as Savior that there will be a death eternally in hell....

Sorry nice try...but it did not work.....
 
JEDIYoda said:
nice sidestepping the issue......
But no Christianity does not call for a physical death to those who donot convert.....

Christianity says that if a person dies without accepting the Lord jesus Christ as Savior that there will be a death eternally in hell....

Sorry nice try...but it did not work.....
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No that's true, in the Bible it just says you should be stoned for:


For touching Mount Sinai

For taking "accursed things"

For cursing or blaspheming

For adultery (including urban rape victims who fail to scream loud enough)

For a woman who is not a virgin on her wedding night

For worshipping other gods

For disobeying parents

For witches and wizards

For breaking the Sabbath

For cursing the king

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/stoning.html
http://quranbible.wordpress.com/2007/05/11/old-testament-stoning-verses/

But I guess all that's cool as long as they don't want non christians executed?
 
JEDIYoda said:
Your understanding of Islam is very limited.....

Any religion that calls for the killing of those who will not convert is NOT a peaceful religion....
]
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And yet I've met numerous Muslims in Canada who practise their religion peacefully. How is that possible?

I have also heard that Christians in Africa aren't too friendly to homosexuals much like their Middle Eastern Islamic friends.

Would it be crazy to think that the violence of a religion is independent of the religion itself, but more a function of the level of development in the area where it is practised?
 
HAL9000 said:
In all honesty I don't know enough about it to argue, I agree that the religion is flawed (on the basis that all religions are deeply flawed) but my understanding of Islam as a whole is that it is focused on peace not war.
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hmmm, defending Islam in one thread, bashing Christianity in another.
 
ShawnD1 said:
None of this counters the fact that blaming somebody attracts more flies than not blaming somebody. That's the appeal of most religions. Nobody is going to flock to a religion that has intuitive rules; I could have thought of those rules on my own. To get support, you need to make up a whole new set of rules. The rules must be counter-intuitive so that people who have never heard of this religion would obviously never follow those rules. That way you can point at them and label them as the bad guys.

Example:
Catholic church says it's evil to have sex with people you love. You're only allowed to have sex with the person you are married to, and that's for life. If you have 10 girlfriends and you love all of them, you can't sleep with all of them. This is counter-intuitive. Your dick wants sex because that's how reproduction works. Your brain wants sex because sex is intimate and humans are social animals like that. By setting the rules in opposition to your instincts, it means everybody who is not part of this religion will be breaking the rules. Then you can label them as the cause of problems because suddenly they are different from you.

I can't remember which comedian said it, but this is sort of the logic behind the term "white trash". When there's no specific race or ethnic group to blame, separate white people into groups who are "trash" and not trash, then blame all of the problems on the trash.
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Not sure if serious.

While there is some truth to your points, they're much too black and white to be anything close to accurate. Not all religious people label followers of another religion, or no religion, as the cause of all problems.

Why on earth would anyone want 10 girlfriends? I'm not ruled by the whims of my brains arousal center; if you are you might think about therapy or counseling. Besides, if someone is not married they can still have sex. Not all church going Catholics, Lutherans, et al, are strict adherents to the tenets of their religion. And if they do find their thoughts or actions in opposition to their faith; they can choose another faith that's more to their liking.

Getting back to the OP: As Actuarial and others have stated, >90% of the followers of Islam do so peacefully, without killing their non-following neighbors or trying to convert them. We tend to concentrate on the ones committing atrocious acts or screaming the loudest, but they are the few and far between.
 
CPA said:
hmmm, defending Islam in one thread, bashing Christianity in another.
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Yep! He didnt seem to have a problem at all painting with a very broad brush about Christianity in the other thread. Yet, he seems to almost be walking on eggshells regarding Islam in this one?
 
HAL9000 said:
No that's true, in the Bible it just says you should be stoned for:


For touching Mount Sinai

For taking "accursed things"

For cursing or blaspheming

For adultery (including urban rape victims who fail to scream loud enough)

For a woman who is not a virgin on her wedding night

For worshipping other gods

For disobeying parents

For witches and wizards

For breaking the Sabbath

For cursing the king

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/stoning.html
http://quranbible.wordpress.com/2007/05/11/old-testament-stoning-verses/

But I guess all that's cool as long as they don't want non christians executed?
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And the last time this happened in a civilized western society? When was the last time it happened in an Islamic country, oh wait ...
 
HAL9000 said:
Christianity calls for equally heinous things.
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All religions call for a variety of nonsense things... some silly, some obscene, some violent, and some are just downright inhuman.

No one ever made the claim that Christianity is somehow perfectly acceptable (I happen to think that all religions are ridiculous), but let's be real: it is, in modern times, nowhere near as violent and antithetical to human progress and prosperity as Islam.

If this was a thread that was critical of Christianity, social conservatives in here would be making posts about Islam that are like yours quoted above... just as you're making the same statements about Christianity in a thread critical of Islam. Do you not see the similarity? The similarity makes both kinds of posts incredibly idiotic.

The late (and great) Christopher Hitchens would agree: trying to neuter criticisms of Islam by bringing up Christianity is totally absurd.
 
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zsdersw said:
All religions call for a variety of nonsense things... some silly, some obscene, some violent, and some are just downright inhuman.

No one ever made the claim that Christianity is somehow perfectly acceptable (I happen to think that all religions are ridiculous), but let's be real: it is, in modern times, nowhere near as violent and antithetical to human progress and prosperity as Islam.
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It is in developing nations, like Uganda. And Islam is not violent in civilized nations, like Canada/US. There are also many nations where neither religion is a factor and they find ways to hate/punish those that don't agree with them.

Personally, I think religion is an antiquated human construct that is on its way out, but to say that some specific religion causes these things is silly. It completely ignores the people that practise the religion peacefully (which people manage to do with every religion), and also fails to recognize that people do this type of terrible stuff to each other even in the absence of religion.
 
actuarial said:
It is in developing nations, like Uganda. And Islam is not violent in civilized nations, like Canada/US. There are also many nations where neither religion is a factor and they find ways to hate/punish those that don't agree with them.

Personally, I think religion is an antiquated human construct that is on its way out, but to say that some specific religion causes these things is silly. It completely ignores the people that practise the religion peacefully (which people manage to do with every religion), and also fails to recognize that people do this type of terrible stuff to each other even in the absence of religion.
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Religion does cause some people to do terrible things. No one claimed it was the only reason that some people do terrible things, however.

The cause for one person doesn't have to be the same for another.
 
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zsdersw said:
Religion does cause some people to do terrible things. No one claimed it was the only reason that some people do terrible things, however.

The cause for one person doesn't have to be the same for another.
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One could say that it enables people to hate each other just because they are different. If you and I look the same but you are Jewish and I am Muslim, that's one more thing we can fight about even if our rules are 99% the same.
 
zsdersw said:
Religion does cause some people to do terrible things. No one claimed it was the only reason that some people do terrible things, however.

The cause for one person doesn't have to be the same for another.
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I guess I just disagree. It's my opinion that these people would do terrible things to somebody regardless of religion, a specific religion just gives them guidance on who to target.

What I'm trying to say is: if you control for economic development, I believe that any specific religion (or lack thereof) will have little impact on the amount of violence/human rights garbage that goes on.
 
actuarial said:
I guess I just disagree. It's my opinion that these people would do terrible things to somebody regardless of religion, a specific religion just gives them guidance on who to target.
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Religion offers a reason and a justification in their mind for doing terrible things beyond simple self-satisfaction or self-gratification.
 
HAL9000 said:
No that's true, in the Bible it just says you should be stoned for:


For touching Mount Sinai

For taking "accursed things"

For cursing or blaspheming

For adultery (including urban rape victims who fail to scream loud enough)

For a woman who is not a virgin on her wedding night

For worshipping other gods

For disobeying parents

For witches and wizards

For breaking the Sabbath

For cursing the king

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/stoning.html
http://quranbible.wordpress.com/2007/05/11/old-testament-stoning-verses/

But I guess all that's cool as long as they don't want non christians executed?
Click to expand...

So Jesus said "You are without sin, stone the adulteress"
Jesus and his disciples never worked on the Sabbath.
Jesus never healed on the Sabbath as it was work.

You are ignorant. That's not a crime, but being willfully ignorant is a sin. Oops that old fashioned word.
 
Hayabusa Rider said:
So Jesus said "You are without sin, stone the adulteress"
Jesus and his disciples never worked on the Sabbath.
Jesus never healed on the Sabbath as it was work.

You are ignorant. That's not a crime, but being willfully ignorant is a sin. Oops that old fashioned word.
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You can ignore the old testament all you want but that doesn't mean you're supposed to. The bible has been edited several times and they decided to keep the old testament there EVERY SINGLE TIME. Doesn't that give some indication that you're supposed to follow it?
 
Islam is either stuck in the Dark Ages or its people are just practicing what its religion preaches...Its probably a mix of both though. With Christianity the Priests took advantage of the masses being illiterate in the past and told them that Jesus said to kill unbelievers [all lies ofc].

Islam though ? 🙁
Muhammed did say to kill non believers. Find them and slay them wherever they hide [his words].

Hate for Jews ? Islam has a monopoly on that one to and its straight from Muhammed:

"'Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, a Jew hides behind me, come and kill him.' Except for the Gharqad tree, which is the tree of the Jews. We believe in this Hadith. We are convinced also that this Hadith heralds the spread of Islam and its rule over all the land... Oh Allah, accept our martyrs in the highest heavens... Oh Allah, show the Jews a black day... Oh Allah, annihilate the Jews and their supporters... Oh Allah, raise the flag of Jihad across the land... Oh Allah, forgive our sins...""


Religion of Peace...Lol.
 
zsdersw said:
Religion offers a reason and a justification in their mind for doing terrible things beyond simple self-satisfaction or self-gratification.
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My point is that if religion didn't provide the justification, something else (or someone else) would.

To me it's just a simple differential analysis. I see Muslims here living peacefully and Muslims in the third world killing each other. I see Christians here living peacefully and Christians in the third world killing each other. I see non religious here living peacefully and non religious in the third world killing each other.

I don't think if you removed Islam from these places and replaced it with Christianity or Hinduism or some other religion that they would be noticeably better.
 
actuarial said:
My point is that if religion didn't provide the justification, something else (or someone else) would.
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Most other motives for doing terrible things are rooted in selfishness. Religion provides a justification that is much worse: righteousness, and doing god's work.
 
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