Busted Bars Suing Underage Drinkers

[Mill]

Originally posted by: Antisocial-Virge

This story is just another reason the drinking age should be 18.

Yea same reason why all speeding stories are a reason to make the speeding limit 120 mph. Now don't even get me going on the murder or child molestation cases..

Nice strawman. Did you want to formulate a rational argument here, or do you prefer using fallacies in every post? Did you ever stop and think you can't compare any of what you mentioned. Just because something falls under the same heading(breaking the law) doesn't mean that the law is just. I don't think Marijuana laws are just, and I don't smoke it or like it. Does that mean I have a vested interest in seeing it changed? No. I just find it very ridiculous. Same with Sunday liquor laws, our high drinking age, low speed limits, etc.

You have to cater to the lowest denominator unfortunately... which seems to be what I am doing by replying to your post.

 

[Goosemaster]

"I was shocked and surprised -- sort of in disbelief -- I didn't think they could do this, I didn't think it was legal," Kate said.


"I didn't think it was legal" ...lol

 

[stormbv]

I'm going to get a FOID card or something for a second I.D. A couple weeks ago I was at a bar, and they made me leave because I didn't have a second form of I.D. I'm 23, but I don't look like I'm 21. What pisses me off is that I got in, was there for about 2 hours and had spent about fifty bucks, and THEN they kick me out. I'll never spend another cent there...piss on 'em.

 

[Antisocial Virge]

You have to cater to the lowest denominator unfortunately... which seems to be what I am doing by replying to your post.

Yea, I had to dumb it down for yea to understand

 

[digitalsm]

Originally posted by: SportSC4
This bar seems rather shady.

213 underaged drinkers were caught in this 1 sting. It's not terribly hard to spot fake ids (most are not of high quality) and the machines at doors can tell the difference between most fakes. It seems to me that the establishment allowed underage drinkers but when they got caught are now suing who they can. It doesn't seem that the business did anything worthwhile to prevent this type of fraud and are looking to score a windfall from these students. I could see if it was a handful of people that got through, but 213? Ignorance on the business's part isn't excuse, especially considering the nature of the business.

Don't get me wrong, i'm not siding with the students on this. But the business was happy to admit underage drinkers (and make money off them) as long as they weren't caught. They got caught and don't want to deal with the consequences they brought on themselves.

In Texas all 213 would have practically ruined their lives. Its not bright to use a fake id in Texas, it is a felony that will follow you the rest of your life, not to mention a high dollar fine and probation.

 

[BruinEd03]

I'd say let them sue, but cap the damages at $300 / person. That $3000 seems a bit too exorbitant. In addition I'd say he can only sue to 50% of their fines. E.g. if his fines were $5000, he can only sue for $2500. So if he had 200+ underaged drinkers he wouldn't make a profit off of this.

-Ed

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: Antisocial-Virge

You have to cater to the lowest denominator unfortunately... which seems to be what I am doing by replying to your post.

Yea, I had to dumb it down for yea to understand

Who is yea?

 

[Vic]

I think those underaged people who do use fake ID's should be punished more severely. This particular case is a bit shady, but that lawyer's argument that it is all the bar's responsibility is total BS.

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: Vic
I think those underaged people who do use fake ID's should be punished more severely. This particular case is a bit shady, but that lawyer's argument that it is all the bar's responsibility is total BS.

Yeah, but most bars condone underage drinking, and then act like they are trying to prevent it.

 

[DainBramaged]

I am almost 21 and go out drinking every once in awhile. I use my (NOVEL CONCEPT) REAL I.D. Yes it does work!!! Now they can't sue me for misrepresentation!!

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Millennium

Originally posted by: Vic
I think those underaged people who do use fake ID's should be punished more severely. This particular case is a bit shady, but that lawyer's argument that it is all the bar's responsibility is total BS.

Yeah, but most bars condone underage drinking, and then act like they are trying to prevent it.

My view is the bar should not be in the law enforcement business. They don't have the training nor the computers to check for and cross-reference a fake I.D.. Every individual on the other hand knows they are breaking the law by using a fake ID. So who is more responsible? Someone who knowing breaks the law or someone untrained who reasonably made a mistake? Also you bring up an interesting point. With the profit motive it is difficult to expect bars to police themselves.

Ultimatly though, the drinking age should be abolished like in any other western country but silly puritanical thinking is alive and well.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Millennium

Originally posted by: Vic
I think those underaged people who do use fake ID's should be punished more severely. This particular case is a bit shady, but that lawyer's argument that it is all the bar's responsibility is total BS.

Yeah, but most bars condone underage drinking, and then act like they are trying to prevent it.

I would not say that they condone underage drinking so much as that they are not in the business of law enforcement. They are in the business of serving customers. Stricter ID checks mean longer waits for their overage customers which means less satisfied customers and less business.
And to say "most bars" ... I don't know what bars you go to but most of the ones I go to cater to an over-21 crowd. They usually have more money and get them in less trouble. I would say that a very small minority of bars are the problem here.
And as those underage using fake ID's are usually adults 18 or older, I feel that they should be charged with fraud and/or forgery in addition to their underaged drinking charge. I agree with you on reducing the drinking age to 18, etc., but until that issue is fixed I feel that it is very unfair to place all the burden on the bars, etc.

 

[Kyteland]

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt
That sounds fair. I used a fake ID to get into bars when underaged and it passed even the closest scrutiny by the doormen and bouncers. By todays standards it wasn't even that good a fake, bit it was close enough that you'd need a magnifying glass to notice what was wrong. With color copiers and computers, anyone with a shred of ability can churn out IDs that are completely indistinguishable from the real thing. Why should the bars be held responsible? Hell, the government is changing the money (again) because color copiers make counterfeiting so easy that anyone can do it. How are bars supposed to protect themselves against a kid with a perfect fake? They can't, the onus needs to be placed on the people actually breaking the law.

That's why it is the states responsibility to update the technology they use in their ID's from time to time. In most states it is now impossible to make a realistic fake ID using a color scanner and photoshop because not only do you need a plastic card printer, but you need the ability to insert holograms on the the card as well. About 5 years ago Illinois went from a laminated piece of paper with you picture on it to a plastic credit card with holograms in it. It is not impossible to duplicate, but it is no longer easy for the average Joe to do it. Sure, you can still scan it and print it out, but a bouncer who even bothers to do his job will spot that the hologram is messed up immediately,

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Millennium

Originally posted by: Vic
I think those underaged people who do use fake ID's should be punished more severely. This particular case is a bit shady, but that lawyer's argument that it is all the bar's responsibility is total BS.

Yeah, but most bars condone underage drinking, and then act like they are trying to prevent it.

I would not say that they condone underage drinking so much as that they are not in the business of law enforcement. They are in the business of serving customers. Stricter ID checks mean longer waits for their overage customers which means less satisfied customers and less business.
And to say "most bars" ... I don't know what bars you go to but most of the ones I go to cater to an over-21 crowd. They usually have more money and get them in less trouble. I would say that a very small minority of bars are the problem here.
And as those underage using fake ID's are usually adults 18 or older, I feel that they should be charged with fraud and/or forgery in addition to their underaged drinking charge. I agree with you on reducing the drinking age to 18, etc., but until that issue is fixed I feel that it is very unfair to place all the burden on the bars, etc.

There are bars that cater to those 21+ and those who cater to underage drinkers. I don't think a small minority is the problem. If the fines were less severe you KNOW they would be serving minors. If they had no change of getting their license taken away you KNOW they would be serving minors. The whole issue is that anyone using a fake-id should be liable, if and only if the bar made a conscious effort to check. How can the civil courts prevent the bars from abusing this. You really think I believe over 200+ people were using fake-ids and the Bar didn't know. I have to say that is BS. They knew but they felt the profit they could make was worth it. They got caught and realized it wasn't such a grand idea after all.

I am not asking them to enforce the law, as that is not their job. However, you have places that are purposely negligent and allow minors to drink. You cannot lay the blame soley at anyone's feet. The Bar and the minor are responsible when both are negligent. Now, if the bar has made a DECENT effort to check IDs and people still slip in, I think those people should be held liable if the bar gets in trouble.

To me this sounds like a College Town incident. Every bar owner is a college town knows that underage people drink there, and they are making too much money to care. If this was just a bar in Portland, Oregon I would be inclined to agree. It doesn't seem this was some random bar. Obviously they had a reputation for being lax or letting minors drink.