Business question that just came up

[ThePresence]

I do freelance graphic design.
A company emailed me a newspaper ad that was done for them by another design place.
They didn't like the look and asked how I would do it differently.
So I did a quick low-res mockup over the other companies design, basically, I used the bottom half of their design and changed around the top.
They loved it and asked me how much I would charge to implement the changes and get it print-ready.
I told them I don't think I can do that. I can't use someone elses work and charge for it. That's pretty much stealing.
They told me that the other company is getting paid for their work regardless.
IMO that wouldn't make a difference. I still can't use their work in another design.
Basically I told them that they have to find out from the other company if their okay with someone else modifying their work.

Am I correct in doing that?

 

[nakedfrog]

I guess it depends on who owns the work.

 

[shocksyde]

I'd say your reasoning is sound...

However, if the other company will be paid for their work, then the ad becomes the property of the company, doesn't it? In that case, it would be fine for you to use the bottom of it.

Sticky one there.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: shocksyde
However, if the other company will be paid for their work, then the ad becomes the property of the company, doesn't it?

That's the crux of the issue.
Not necessarily.
It really depends on the agreement they have between them, as to who owns the copyright.
I think so anyway.

 

[SonnyDaze]

You sound like you're making the right decision. I'd get the okay from the original designers before I tried to profit off of it.

 

[iamwiz82]

If you had issues doing it, why would you use the original design at all?

 

[iRONic]

Originally posted by: ThePresence
I do freelance graphic design.
A company emailed me a newspaper ad that was done to them by another design place.
They didn't like the look and asked how I would do it differently.
So I did a quick low-res mockup over the other companies design, basically, I used the bottom half of their design and changed around the top.
They loved it and asked me how much I would charge to implement the changes and get it print-ready.
I told them I don't think I can do that. I can't use someone elses work and charge for it. That's pretty much stealing.
They told me that the other company is getting paid for their work regardless.
IMO that wouldn't make a difference. I still can't use their work in another design.
Basically I told them that they have to find out from the other company if their okay with someone else modifying their work.

Am I correct in doing that?

You're correct for covering your ass! WTG

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: iamwiz82
If you had issues doing it, why would you use the original design at all?

Because they liked the bottom and wanted to know how I would do the top differently.
I had no idea they would want to go to print with my quick mock-up.
I was just showing how I might do it.

 

[iRONic]

Originally posted by: iamwiz82
If you had issues doing it, why would you use the original design at all?

His low-res mockup was an excellent way to pimp his skills.

 

[EGGO]

This is when you should take a look at the copyright stuff. Look at the previous guy's contract and everything. If you did jump the gun and did the work, lawyers could've been employed for another use, and not in preventive measure-wise.

 

[ViviTheMage]

Originally posted by: shocksyde
I'd say your reasoning is sound...

However, if the other company will be paid for their work, then the ad becomes the property of the company, doesn't it? In that case, it would be fine for you to use the bottom of it.

Sticky one there.

my thinking exactly.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: iRONic

Originally posted by: iamwiz82
If you had issues doing it, why would you use the original design at all?

His low-res mockup was an excellent way to pimp his skills.

Exactly.

 

[FoBoT]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Am I correct in doing that?

i think you are correct in asking for written permission to use their work

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: EGGO
This is when you should take a look at the copyright stuff. Look at the previous guy's contract and everything. If you did jump the gun and did the work, lawyers could've been employed for another use, and not in preventive measure-wise.

Yeah, I just got on the phone and told someone there that they'd have to look at their contract. She said they don't have a contract, it's a "heres what we want please draw it up for us" kind of relationship. I guess I'll need to ask a lawyer.

 

[manicfool]

If the original design company was compensated in full for the work they did then they have nothing they can say. Just think of it as you making "after-market" modifications to the original design. The client in this case can do whatever they want with their "copy" of the work that they bought and paid for. You don't see car companies suing thier customers for adding ground effects and after market enhancements or replacing factory stock parts after they buy the car do you?

 

[D1gger]

Originally posted by: manicfool
If the original design company was compensated in full for the work they did then they have nothing they can say. Just think of it as you making "after-market" modifications to the original design. The client in this case can do whatever they want with their "copy" of the work that they bought and paid for. You don't see car companies suing thier customers for adding ground effects and after market enhancements or replacing factory stock parts after they buy the car do you?

This is not true. Often companies restrict the usage of the product that you "purchased" from them. You would have to check the T's a& C's of the contract to see who owns the copyright for the ad-copy. In my experience, the graphic design company usually retains the copyright, while giving the purchasing company the right to use the graphics as supplied. If you want to make changes, the original graphic designers would have to grant their approval.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: D1gger

Originally posted by: manicfool
If the original design company was compensated in full for the work they did then they have nothing they can say. Just think of it as you making "after-market" modifications to the original design. The client in this case can do whatever they want with their "copy" of the work that they bought and paid for. You don't see car companies suing thier customers for adding ground effects and after market enhancements or replacing factory stock parts after they buy the car do you?

This is not true. Often companies restrict the usage of the product that you "purchased" from them. You would have to check the T's a& C's of the contract to see who owns the copyright for the ad-copy. In my experience, the graphic design company usually retains the copyright, while giving the purchasing company the right to use the graphics as supplied. If you want to make changes, the original graphic designers would have to grant their approval.

Exactly. However in this case there is no contract.

 

[ThePresence]

Ah well, they're gonna get back to me tommorow. I've heard that before.

 

[smack Down]

With no contract it would then be a work for hire and the company would get the copyright.

 

[Paperdoc]

There is no written contract to settle this, so you have to assume default legalities. I would GUESS that the design belongs to the original designers, and the purchasing company has an unlimited right to use it as they see fit. However, that company does NOT have a right to transfer ownership of the original design to a third party. But I AM NOT A LAWYER, so this is just my guess.

Maybe try this: Design and sell the company the top half they like. (Avoid these comlications and write a brief contract on it!) Then it is the company's responsibility to handle parts of the old ad and the new half one to produce a final ad for publication. They proably have that right, even though there is no written contract to say they can use a PART of the original design.

Now, they may feel they do not have the expertise and equipment in-house to assemble parts from two designs into one. They could get the newspaper to do that part. Or they could contract you to assemble for them a finished piece from two items they own rights to use.

Easiest of all is, the company writes up a brief contract saying they take over complete ownership of the copyrights to the original piece, and the original designer signs it over. Then you are free to use the company's new property as they direct.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: Paperdoc
There is no written contract to settle this, so you have to assume default legalities. I would GUESS that the design belongs to the original designers, and the purchasing company has an unlimited right to use it as they see fit. However, that company does NOT have a right to transfer ownership of the original design to a third party. But I AM NOT A LAWYER, so this is just my guess.

Maybe try this: Design and sell the company the top half they like. (Avoid these comlications and write a brief contract on it!) Then it is the company's responsibility to handle parts of the old ad and the new half one to produce a final ad for publication. They proably have that right, even though there is no written contract to say they can use a PART of the original design.

Now, they may feel they do not have the expertise and equipment in-house to assemble parts from two designs into one. They could get the newspaper to do that part. Or they could contract you to assemble for them a finished piece from two items they own rights to use.

Easiest of all is, the company writes up a brief contract saying they take over complete ownership of the copyrights to the original piece, and the original designer signs it over. Then you are free to use the company's new property as they direct.

hehe genius!!

 

[theknight571]

Couldn't you just sell the top half to the customer, then they could take it to the original company and ask them to make the changes for final print... that way the customer could present the changes to the original company as theirs.

 

[LordMaul]

Looks like you need some advice from a REAL graphics artist...

I've worked with businesses somewhat often and frequently update or modify work that was done by another artist. If they commissioned the work to be done, and it was handed over to them for a certain amount of money, then it is theirs. That's also how I work... Once I'm paid for it, they're free to use it as they wish, for the most part. Therefore, since they paid the original artists, they are giving you their own property to modify, and as long as they OK it, you shouldn't worry about the previous artist...even if said artist gets pissy when he sees the work, the company is liable, not you.