Bush where was he?

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: wiin
Posted by Darkhawk28:

Where did the documents originate?

I found this:
Anatomy of a Forgery

More than six weeks ago, an opposition research staffer for the Democratic National Committee received documents purportedly written by President George W. Bush's Texas Air National Guard squadron commander, the late Col. Jerry Killian.

The oppo researcher claimed the source was "a retired military officer." According to a DNC staffer, the documents were seen by both senior staff members at the DNC, as well as the Kerry campaign.

Interesting if true - I could imagine some cranky anti-Bush retiree cooking these up. I can't say I regard the American Prowler as an even moderately credible source, but who knows?

 

[Sketcher]

Nothin' like puttin' your money where your Blog is...

Powerlineblog.com

DefeatJohnJohn.com is offering $10,500 (or more if its readers kick more in) to anyone who "can reasonably recreate the CBS memos on equipment available in early 1972." The memos have already been reasonably recreated on modern word processing systems by Charles Johnson at Little Green Footballs. So until they are recreated by a system available in early 1972, the strong presumption must be that the CBS memos were forged.

DefeatJohnJohn is supremely confident that the memos won't be recreated on the IBM Selectric Composer, since the manual makes it clear that the super- and sub-scripting available to these typewriters only involved the raising or lowering of letters; it couldn't make them any smaller, since the wheel was fixed-point. Thus, CBS; claim that "typewriters in the day could do superscripts" ignores the key fact that the superscripting that appears in the forged documents apparently couldn't be done, at least not by the IBM Selectric Composer.

 

[PELarson]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

which magic typewriter in 1972 did all of these things?

A Usenet posting from 1995 tha...earing on the subject.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: DonVito

Originally posted by: wiin
Posted by Darkhawk28:

Where did the documents originate?

I found this:
Anatomy of a Forgery

More than six weeks ago, an opposition research staffer for the Democratic National Committee received documents purportedly written by President George W. Bush's Texas Air National Guard squadron commander, the late Col. Jerry Killian.

The oppo researcher claimed the source was "a retired military officer." According to a DNC staffer, the documents were seen by both senior staff members at the DNC, as well as the Kerry campaign.

Interesting if true - I could imagine some cranky anti-Bush retiree cooking these up. I can't say I regard the American Prowler as an even moderately credible source, but who knows?

Hard to judge kerning on such bad copies. Maybe CBS should release their copies, since rather claimed to have better copies today.

 

[Sketcher]

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/n...e.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40396

The daughter of former Texas Lt. Gov. Ben Barnes says her father fabricated claims made on "60 Minutes II" that he used his influence to help President Bush avoid going to Vietnam 36 years ago.

Audio

 

[GoPackGo]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: DonVito

Originally posted by: wiin
Posted by Darkhawk28:

Where did the documents originate?

I found this:
Anatomy of a Forgery

More than six weeks ago, an opposition research staffer for the Democratic National Committee received documents purportedly written by President George W. Bush's Texas Air National Guard squadron commander, the late Col. Jerry Killian.

The oppo researcher claimed the source was "a retired military officer." According to a DNC staffer, the documents were seen by both senior staff members at the DNC, as well as the Kerry campaign.

Interesting if true - I could imagine some cranky anti-Bush retiree cooking these up. I can't say I regard the American Prowler as an even moderately credible source, but who knows?

Hard to judge kerning on such bad copies. Maybe CBS should release their copies, since rather claimed to have better copies today.

Here is a link to
Selectric.org

The guy did an example from word and two typewriters.

take a look

 

[charrison]

linkage

HODGES SAID HE WAS MISLED BY CBS: Retired Maj. General Hodges, Killian's supervisor at the Grd, tells ABC News that he feels CBS misled him about the documents they uncovered. According to Hodges, CBS told him the documents were "handwritten" and after CBS read him excerpts he said, "well if he wrote them that's what he felt."


Hodges also said he did not see the documents in the 70's and he cannot authenticate the documents or the contents. His personal belief is that the documents have been "computer generated" and are a "fraud".

Does this story have any credibility left?

 

[GoPackGo]

Originally posted by: charrison
linkage

HODGES SAID HE WAS MISLED BY CBS: Retired Maj. General Hodges, Killian's supervisor at the Grd, tells ABC News that he feels CBS misled him about the documents they uncovered. According to Hodges, CBS told him the documents were "handwritten" and after CBS read him excerpts he said, "well if he wrote them that's what he felt."


Hodges also said he did not see the documents in the 70's and he cannot authenticate the documents or the contents. His personal belief is that the documents have been "computer generated" and are a "fraud".

Does this story have any credibility left?

Ouch for SeeBS...how does Dan Rather explain this one away?....so now we have Killians Family...multiple type/font/writer/etc experts and now this guy saying the docs are fake.

CBS interviewed the family prior ,but ignored them.
CBS lied to the retired General.

I wonder if CBS found this story on the news desk on the set of SNL?

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: charrison
linkage

HODGES SAID HE WAS MISLED BY CBS: Retired Maj. General Hodges, Killian's supervisor at the Grd, tells ABC News that he feels CBS misled him about the documents they uncovered. According to Hodges, CBS told him the documents were "handwritten" and after CBS read him excerpts he said, "well if he wrote them that's what he felt."


Hodges also said he did not see the documents in the 70's and he cannot authenticate the documents or the contents. His personal belief is that the documents have been "computer generated" and are a "fraud".

Does this story have any credibility left?

Ouch for SeeBS...how does Dan Rather explain this one away?....so now we have Killians Family...multiple type/font/writer/etc experts and now this guy saying the docs are fake.

CBS interviewed the family prior ,but ignored them.
CBS lied to the retired General.

I wonder if CBS found this story on the news desk on the set of SNL?

CBS should investiage this memo as well

 

[GoPackGo]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: charrison
linkage

HODGES SAID HE WAS MISLED BY CBS: Retired Maj. General Hodges, Killian's supervisor at the Grd, tells ABC News that he feels CBS misled him about the documents they uncovered. According to Hodges, CBS told him the documents were "handwritten" and after CBS read him excerpts he said, "well if he wrote them that's what he felt."


Hodges also said he did not see the documents in the 70's and he cannot authenticate the documents or the contents. His personal belief is that the documents have been "computer generated" and are a "fraud".

Does this story have any credibility left?

Ouch for SeeBS...how does Dan Rather explain this one away?....so now we have Killians Family...multiple type/font/writer/etc experts and now this guy saying the docs are fake.

CBS interviewed the family prior ,but ignored them.
CBS lied to the retired General.

I wonder if CBS found this story on the news desk on the set of SNL?

CBS should investiage this memo as well

This looks like it was typed with a typewriter...so it MUST be real
:beer:

 

[gordy]

Originally posted by: gordy
Al Gore invented the wordprocessor

 

[charrison]

Ibm composer

superscripting

To make the superscripted th, I first typed "111", then switched the font to the 8pt font, switched the escapement lever to the smaller escapement (horizontal movement), reverse indexed the paper 1/2 line up, typed the "th", indexed 1/2 line down, switched the escapement lever to the wider escapement, then changed the type ball back to the 11pt font. On other tries, I was able to produce the superscripted th much cleaner (where it looked proper), but on the one I sent you, the carrier slipped forward a little bit when I switched the escapement lever to and from the smaller spacing.

Another point that is very suspicious is the centered heading. This is a snap to do with fixed spacing (like courier), but the text is centered using proportional spaced text, which means that the typist had to carefully measure the text prior to typing to calculate its exact center point. Typing a superscript, with all its steps, is simple compared to centering text proportionally without digital electronics.

Interesting read on how this machine works.

 

[GoPackGo]

Originally posted by: gordy

Originally posted by: gordy
Al Gore invented the wordprocessor

So Gore wrote the docs!

 

[arsbanned]

Brilliant tactical move on Rove's part which will put this problem to rest for team Bush. Discredit the whole story by producing and disseminating fake documents, make it look like your opponent was behind the whole thing, with the added benefit of punishing a news oulet that has produced stories "critical" of you... Kill 3 birds with 1 stone. *nods head* I have to admire that. Hitler would just have had zem all shot, but hey, they can't be that brazen...yet.
Of course in the end none of it matters since Bush is nearly guaranteed re-election come Nov 3.... It just puts a final, taptap on the coffin lid of Kerry's candidacy.

 

[MrPALCO]

You Liberals/Democrats/Everyone who agrees with you, I have an observation for you.

You have made up your mind long ago to believe the lies put out by your group. Your dogged commitment to these liars (Clinton, Kerry, Rather, etc.) puts the bit in your mouth. The most obvious scam looks like the truth to you, and so you defend it with amazing vigor.

The sweet part of all this is that the undecideds who watch this unfold are not as gullible or stupid as you. I enjoy watching you twist in the wind.

Repeat after me, Four more years.

 

[burnedout]

Originally posted by: charrison
linkage

HODGES SAID HE WAS MISLED BY CBS: Retired Maj. General Hodges, Killian's supervisor at the Grd, tells ABC News that he feels CBS misled him about the documents they uncovered. According to Hodges, CBS told him the documents were "handwritten" and after CBS read him excerpts he said, "well if he wrote them that's what he felt."


Hodges also said he did not see the documents in the 70's and he cannot authenticate the documents or the contents. His personal belief is that the documents have been "computer generated" and are a "fraud".

Does this story have any credibility left?

But it gets worse, much worse:

BY PETE SLOVER

The Dallas Morning News

AUSTIN, Texas - (KRT) - The man named in a disputed memo as exerting pressure to "sugar coat" President Bush's military record left the Texas Air National Guard a year and a half before the memo was supposedly written, his own service record shows.

An order obtained by The Dallas Morning News shows that Col. Walter "Buck" Staudt was honorably discharged on March 1, 1972. CBS News reported this week that a memo in which Staudt was described as interfering with officers' negative evaluations of Bush's service, was dated Aug. 18, 1973.

[...]

But another Texas Air National Guard official who served in that period said the memo appears to wrongly associate Staudt with his group command in Houston, and - based on that mistake - the memo distinguishes his views from that of the Austin Guard headquarters.

Retired Col. Earl Lively, who was director of Air National Guard operations for the state headquarters during 1972 and 1973 said Staudt "wasn't on the scene" after retirement, and that CBS' remote-bullying thesis makes no sense.

"He couldn't bully them. He wasn't in the Guard," Lively said. "He couldn't affect their promotions. Once you're gone from the Guard, you don't have any authority."

REAL investigative journalism may yet debunk this blatant example of mainstream media BS.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: MrPALCO
You Liberals/Democrats/Everyone who agrees with you, I have an observation for you.

You have made up your mind long ago to believe the lies put out by your group. Your dogged commitment to these liars (Clinton, Kerry, Rather, etc.) puts the bit in your mouth. The most obvious scam looks like the truth to you, and so you defend it with amazing vigor.

The sweet part of all this is that the undecideds who watch this unfold are not as gullible or stupid as you. I enjoy watching you twist in the wind.

Repeat after me, Four more years.

........
........

........
........
........
........

 

[heartsurgeon]

ifrom the perspective of an "undecided voter" i would venture a guess that these undecideds just don't really care a whole lot about this "memogate" stuff.

the truth about Bush's Air National Guard service is irrelevant. Neither vice-president performed any service. both presidential candidates performed some soert of service...

the harping about who did what, energizes the base voters, but turns off the undecided voters.

i think the whole vietnam thing is a wash...neither side wins. the water is so muddied now, that charges and counter charges will make the undecideds tune out the vietnam thing completely...

just my opinion...trying to figure out what the "undecided's are thinking"

the next step if i was Bush/Rove, is to start harping about Kerry's actvities in the Senate....

ye-haw!

Nuclear freeze, communists are nice folks, ban weapons, raise taxes, cut intelligence spending....

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: arsbanned
Brilliant tactical move on Rove's part which will put this problem to rest for team Bush. Discredit the whole story by producing and disseminating fake documents, make it look like your opponent was behind the whole thing, with the added benefit of punishing a news oulet that has produced stories "critical" of you... Kill 3 birds with 1 stone. *nods head* I have to admire that. Hitler would just have had zem all shot, but hey, they can't be that brazen...yet.
Of course in the end none of it matters since Bush is nearly guaranteed re-election come Nov 3.... It just puts a final, taptap on the coffin lid of Kerry's candidacy.

IMHO CBS and 60 minutes deserve it, not only have they been overly biased in their reporting but also this is their own mess for not paying closer attention to the docs and just running with it...I am still interested in seeing how this turns out.

 

[Turgon]

This is a tremendous opportunity to expose the extreme left bias in the media to people that aren't very informed.
This will probably cost Kerry even more votes.... not that it matters. He was never meant to win, anyway.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: arsbanned
Brilliant tactical move on Rove's part which will put this problem to rest for team Bush. Discredit the whole story by producing and disseminating fake documents, make it look like your opponent was behind the whole thing, with the added benefit of punishing a news oulet that has produced stories "critical" of you... Kill 3 birds with 1 stone. *nods head* I have to admire that. Hitler would just have had zem all shot, but hey, they can't be that brazen...yet.
Of course in the end none of it matters since Bush is nearly guaranteed re-election come Nov 3.... It just puts a final, taptap on the coffin lid of Kerry's candidacy.

IMHO CBS and 60 minutes deserve it, not only have they been overly biased in their reporting but also this is their own mess for not paying closer attention to the docs and just running with it...I am still interested in seeing how this turns out.

CBS just may surprise everyone yet. It looks doubtful at this point in time though, but stranger things have happened.

Of course, this doesn't lift the doubt that was there before they broke the story. I mean what are the odds that all those guys ended up in the champagne unit just by coincidence?? Too high to just be teh luck of the draw, that's for sure.

 

[heartsurgeon]

HAHA

the latest info makes the memos look even more strange..

Seattle Times 9-11-2004

The man named in a disputed memo as exerting pressure to "sugarcoat" George W. Bush's military record left the Texas Air National Guard a year and a half before the memo supposedly was written, his service record shows.
An order obtained by The Dallas Morning News shows that Col. Walter "Buck" Staudt was honorably discharged March 1, 1972. CBS News reported this week that a memo in which Staudt was described as interfering with officers' negative evaluations of the future president's service was dated Aug. 18, 1973.

oops....

In the "60 Minutes" report, Rather said of the memo's contents: "Killian says Col. Buck Staudt, the man in charge of the Texas Air National Guard, is putting on pressure to 'sugarcoat' an evaluation of Lt. Bush."

double oops...

CBS had talked to two people who worked with Killian ? his superior, retired Maj. Gen. Bobby Hodges, and his administrative assistant Robert Strong ? and both described the memos as consistent with what they knew of Killian. Hodges, who told CBS he was "familiar" with the documents, is an avid Bush supporter and "it took a lot for him to speak the truth," the Post quoted Rather as saying.

The Los Angeles Times, however, later quoted Hodges as saying that he believed the memos from Killian were not real. A CBS news executive confirmed that Hodges had changed his story

triple oops..

 

[DealMonkey]

Hey Heartsurgeon, why don't you post the order so we can all determine if its authentic? Hell, I'm an amateur document authenticator and I even got a credential for it from the back of Rolling Stone Mag. Come on now, post that order that shows that Col. Walter "Buck" Staudt was honorably discharged March 1, 1972.

 

[burnedout]

Good old Dan also visited Austin, TX in April of 2001 for a DemocRATic party fundraiser. Given the events of this past week, the following statement from him seems rather fitting.

"I made an embarrassing and regrettable error in judgment by going to this event. I am determined to do everything possible to guard against any future word and deed that would even suggest any question about where CBS News and I stand when it comes to ethical journalistic conduct."

Heh heh heh

 

[arsbanned]

Heh, I just heard that one of the experts weighing in on whether or not the docs could have been created on technology of the time has recanted his previous statement claiming they could NOT have been. He now says they could indeed have been created on the Selectric.
Curiouser and curiouser.


CBS is standing by its report:

As questions continued to swirl over the authenticity of documents about President Bush's Vietnam-era military service Friday, CBS News, in its evening news broadcast, strongly defended the documents reported about on "60 Minutes" earlier this week.

"This report was not based solely on recovered documents, but rather on a preponderance of evidence, including documents that were provided by unimpeachable sources, interviews with former Texas National Guard officials and individuals who worked closely back in the early 1970s with Colonel Jerry Killian and were well acquainted with his procedures, his character and his thinking," the network said in a statement reported on its Web site.

More political fun and games.

IMHO CBS and 60 minutes deserve it,

What, a firing squad? OR just a quick bullet to the head?